The morality system is a sad take on the force.

[JustTed]

Lol. You thought the system in KotOR was a good expression of the force? I cast ye out of Star Wars fandom.

 

You're a Star Wars fan? I found your problem. "Logical consistency" and "Star Wars" don't really go together. Like, at all.

[Brickabrack]

It's not black and white. It's based on each factions perception on morality. For instance, for the Jedi, supporting a romance is a dark side option. For the Sith, it either doesn't give you dark side points or it can even award you light side. It's very clever.

[Yakito]

Seriously, complaining about this aspect of the game?

 

This shows that, as with WoW, people will complain about absolutely everything.

 

Cheers.

 

 

Obviously pointing out some mistakes is a sin, isn't it? Especially if you love the game and are afraid to hear that it has flaws?

Imagine a world with people that only praise what they are given - like a world with your clones. Imagine that everything you had would be absolute crap, because you'd defend it anyway.

Keep doing that, that will get you very far. Ever heard of evolution and progress? Changing bad for better?

 

You don't think people should seek perfection? Just submit to everything?

[Asuka]

I still maintain that the biggest problem of the LS/DS system is that it is POINTLESS- it doesnt change anything (NOT ONE THING) about how the storyline ends up going.

 

As far as sidequests go, I also love how, as long as the option doesn't have a LS/DS icon, you can SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT, you can treat the NPCS like ABSOLUTE DIRT, and they'll just shrug it off and still give you your quest/reward/etc.

 

Actually it does. Choosing one option or the other can spare you fights one might be wise to avoid by talking your way out of it.

[daemian]

I think it works because it has nothing to do with the force, other than an optional cosmetic change. It doesn't affect your character's force abilities one bit. It's simply a roleplaying mechanism that determines your character's moral alignment, the general flavour of your class story, and the affection of your companions. Edited January 25, 2012 by daemian

[Giondi]

*Edit* I wanted to also add, there is a huge issue with 'goodness by proxy' that pops up time and again. Just because an act is of 'lesser evil' than another, does not make it good. There's a quest on Dromund Kaas that is a perfect example -- where my character is given the option to either brutally kill a bunch of rebellious slaves slowly, or kill them quickly. Now, maybe a quick exit is a better way to go, but that doesn't make such an action lightsided, for Christ's sake.

 

That quest is even more ****ed up than you present it as being. The light side choice isn't putting them out of their misery, it's helping the Imperial military guy get out of there quicker and on to more important duties. Although, I suppose if you look at it the right way, the slaves are going to die either way, so really, you're keeping the Sith who was in charge of the operation from using this as a chance to commit mass torture murder.

 

Also, since when is it not black and white? My favorite quote from the movies is when Obi-Wan tells Anakin "Only the Sith deal in absolutes," since he really couldn't see the hypocrisy in that line. The Jedi have always believed "This is right, this is wrong, and if you choose wrong, you must die."

[ArcadesSabboth]

Yeah. But, again, that's a systematic issue with being force-fed a story like this. The illusion of choice does not equate to real, actual choice. Ninety-nine percent of the decisions in this game really boil down to the following: will you accept this quest? A) yes, B) no.

 

Is this your first Bioware game? They are story tellers, but it's never been a "Choose Your Own Adventure" storybook. Light side and dark side are no different than siding with the Templars or Mages in Dragon Age 2. It helps flesh out the character in YOUR mind, but the global storyline never changes.

 

While I agree with a lot of what you said about the light/dark side distinction having more to do with emotion and not the ultimate act, how in the hell do you propose that be implemented in a video game? There's no possible way for the writers at Bioware to predict the infinite mindsets of its players and project those into a game via assignment of alignment points.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the Dromund Kaas quest, though. A "light sided" Jedi is quite different than a "light sided" Sith. Killing the villagers was essential for testing the poison, which was a war instrument (i.e. power). Killing them quickly was the lesser of two evils but still in line with a Sith's desire for power.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ArcadesSabboth

[OddballEasyEight]

A black and white morality system -- where act A is 'good,' but act B is a 'no-no' -- does not equate to the force, and never has. That is why the dark side is tied more to emotional output than to set-in-stone actions. Murder is a bad act, but what if you kill to save, or kill to defend, or even kill for (what you believe to be) a righteous cause? It's easy to sit back and wash our hands of a situation and be like 'oh, well that's evil,' but the force is more concerned with attachment/detachment than it is about doing a body count and then pointing fingers. One man's murder is another man's justice, and the force has much more to do with a person's emotional state during the act than the act itself.

 

What if Anakin had been told that there was a massive bomb at the center of Coruscant that would explode if he didn't murder the younglings? Yes this is a silly situation, but it demonstrates a point -- Anakin's mental state during the killings was far more important than the killings themselves in determining whether the act was light/dark.

 

This is why the Jedi wear kid gloves while dealing with the force -- why seemingly 'everything' leads to the darkside. Because one questionable act, while it might not be truly dark, could conceivably lead to others that are. Anakin being sad about leaving his mom in Ep. I probably wasn't all that strongly darksided -- but when it led to an obsession by the time of his teenage years that ultimately culminated in the slaughter of the sand people, then we can begin to appreciate the initial hesitancy of the council regarding his entry into the Order.

 

The problem with the morality system in TOR is that it makes no account for the long term ramifications -- good or bad -- of a decision. Every single choice results in an immediate morality swing, often with ridiculous implications with regards to what Bioware apparently believes is light or dark. As a Sith Warrior, what if I saved Overseer Tremmel because I was thinking about how he would help me slaughter Baras? Is that a lightsided move? Is 'saving a life' good if I am plotting to utilize the person in a future coldblooded murder? Therein lies the flaw of this system -- instantaneous, absolute and utterly farcical 'judgement' is rendered without any consideration being given for ulterior motives.

 

*Edit* I wanted to also add, there is a huge issue with 'goodness by proxy' that pops up time and again. Just because an act is of 'lesser evil' than another, does not make it good. There's a quest on Dromund Kaas that is a perfect example -- where my character is given the option to either brutally kill a bunch of rebellious slaves slowly, or kill them quickly. Now, maybe a quick exit is a better way to go, but that doesn't make such an action lightsided, for Christ's sake.

 

What i got out of that was that as long as you dont let your emotions control you, you can get away with murder.

 

so basically a sociopath/psychopath that feels nothing for his victims (or indeed nothing at all) is a "good guy" in your book since he may be killing, but he isnt feeling anything.

 

no no, killing is bad... period...

If you kill someone to save millions of people you will still get darkside points because its a slippery slide.

Next time you might kill someone to save just 2 people...

and after that its easy to kill someone just because you think he MIGHT do something bad in the future.

[PibbyPib]

I have a hard time telling what 'light side" and "dark side" are meant to be anyway. If light side is anything that isn't purely dispassionate and selfless, and dark side is anything that's driven by emotion, ok... but that's pretty meaningless.

 

Genocides have been carried out by people who claimed to be motivated by a dispassionate pursuit of an ideal, and great things are done in the name of friendship, or love, or even anger.

 

Meh. I think the problem is that the whole thing is just a shallow construct for a lot of not-so-consistent fiction.

Edited January 25, 2012 by PibbyPib

[Wager]

I think the solution is to have everybody's daily actions put before a panel of "Force Experts" and have the player's over-all attitude in their choices be judged.

 

Once judged, the decisions will go through a certification process before being sent off to a member of the executive staff for final approval.

 

The certified alignment will then only be provisional pending an automatic appeals process whereby the character's player can defend decisions based on the specific character's back story and how they want to appear in their companion's eyes.

 

... Or we can accept that simple game mechanics are meant to be simple game mechanics and not representative of the "realities" of virtual life.

[AJediKnight]

While I agree with a lot of what you said about the light/dark side distinction having more to do with emotion and not the ultimate act, how in the hell do you propose that be implemented in a video game? There's no possible way for the writers at Bioware to predict the infinite mindsets of its players and project those into a game via assignment of alignment points.

 

Why is this the go-to play of so many people on this forum? "If you don't like it, design something else!"

 

Maybe it's time for Bioware to design something else, considering that this is the same choice tree that has been present in all their games, single and multiplayer, for over a decade?

 

Story is a major selling point in this game, yet clearly a lot of us think they did a pretty poor job on most of it. The goal here by Bioware shouldn't be to present false options and to attempt to trick their community into thinking that they actually have real choices to make when, instead, 90% of those choices have absolutely zero impact on the story. It reduces most of the game to a cheap parlor trick; a back-handed effort (that has apparently succeeded) to fool a lot of gullible people into thinking that what they choose matters.

 

Frankly, at that point, I'd rather have the story dictated to me, and have the company reinvest the millions of dollars in this 'road to nowhere' development somewhere else in the game like, I dunno, the terrible engine.

Edited January 25, 2012 by AJediKnight

[FlameBlock]

This is a debate that will go on for ever i think to help with this i think you should be able to change factions i.e. go from imperial to republic or vice versa to demonstrate what kind of evil or good you thought you were doing because the alignment choices in the game seemed to be what is for the Sith code and what is Jedi so if that is the case allowing the player to "fall" or be "redeemed" would allow the player to truly role play there toon