Can you be a successful tank and be a Clicker?

[taugrimtaugrim]

Ive watched your vids and read your blogs and in my estimate I perform melee strafing and turning jist as well as you.

 

I use the WASD-QE for movement and camera panning with my mouse.

 

If you have any video footage uploaded, I would love to take a look at it.

 

In the past 7 years, I have known two players who were clickers that I considered very skilled players. E.g. Nazgum the Shaman from WAR. But that was back in games that didn't have the sheer # of useful abilities that SWTOR provides.

 

You got fired just because you're a clicker?? There wasnt even an issue with your tanking until you mentioned that you click?

 

That is completely ridiculous!! You are better off without those people, seriously.

Unbelievable.

 

Speaking of that...

 

To the OP: I do agree that what your guild did to you was lame. They should have talked to you constructively about concerns they have with your being a clicker.

 

I.e. they could have handled the situation much more gracefully.

Edited January 28, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[grandmasterub]

If you have any video footage uploaded, I would love to take a look at it.

 

unfortunately i dont do any video capture. i suppose i could look into it if youre that interested.

 

i'm not trying to say clicking is superior to keybinding i'm just sayin its not necessarily inferior.

 

no i cant click and turn at the same time, but i can perform the turn between GCDs and be back to click. not to mention in pve mad movement usually isnt required, wheras in pvp i find what abilities get used is much more reactive so hitting a new spell the instant GCD is done is often less necessary. : /

[angrydurf]

With a GCD of 1.5 seconds, Autofaceing, and in PvE clicking is pretty much the same as keybinding. That is not to say that keybinding isn't faster or more responsive it is without a doubt. However for PVE content particularly in a tank role that responsiveness isn't actually needed.

 

The GCD will eat up the time it takes for you to get your cursor over the ability if you know where it is and with autofacing being able to turn quickly just isn't much of an issue.

 

I personally would go so far as to say that the traditional mouselook centered FPS style play used by most who keybind heavily is harmful for tanking as the most vital skill in tanking to be able to do quickly is target acquisition if you have trained yourself to spend most of your time in mouselook mode your target aquisition will be through tab targeting which is the worst way to do it as a tank. Rapid target shifting is vital in any situation where Threat matters (IE not EZ mode WOW tanking where you have such a threat lead on everything that you can't lose threat)

 

Personally I use a hybrid approach. I am a keyboard turner as rapid movement and adjustment of facing isn't that important for PvE particularly in a tank role. this keeps my cursor free to focus on targeting. I keep my key abilities for my main rotation as well as taunt etc on keybinds so I can fire them off while selecting targets. activatables like adrenals, medpacks, and defensive CD's are clicks for me the time to get from center screen to one of those is pretty much never the difference between success and failure. If you're going to die in a group PvE encounter in the time it takes to get to one of those icons then they are not going to save you.

 

As for your guild this is pretty typical unfortunately. A few so called "elite" players usually PvP players of DPS classes get out on forums like these and elsewhere and declare their play-style superior and people listen thinking what they have to say is relevant and that play-style says something about overall competence and this gets seized on by people far outside of context thus clicker is equated to Bad in all situations when really it's PvP alone where those fractions of a second and mobility issues become so important. Take heart that if you are any good at all as a tank you'll be able to find lots of people willing to let you take the heat for them and move on to a guild with less drama potential. I'm sure these are the same people who think it's the tanks fault when DPS can't follow kill or CC orders and get themselves killed.

[Manuad]

To the OP.

 

You are better off without that guild.

 

I started tanking in Everquest and moved on to vanilla WOW. For that period I was a clicker and it was not detrmental to my game play.

 

I tried to switch to binds in WoW but couldnt get into it. Age of Conan launched and i decided that I would bind from the begining.

 

The process was awful, I found it very difficult and and annoying. However I stuck at it. When I returned to WOW I found that teh difficulyt transition was over. Using Binds and mouse moving came naturallly.

 

While clicking had been fine, I find that Binding is superior. I feel as it gave me substantial boost.

 

I would suggest you try it it and stick at it for a month.

 

Ideally I would suggest using a G13 gaming pad and/or a Razor Naga for your binds.

They are both expensive options but they will make the transition easier.

[Boli-Finador]

Key binding things is faster for most things; HOWEVER clicking allows you to have access to more abilities.

 

Even the most ardent keybinder will still use a mouse for movement, view and none keyboard selection; this means that you only have one hand resting on the keyboard. Rest your hand there and you'll see that you could prob cover from 1 to B with ease although \, z and x will be hard to reach as are numbers over 5.

 

 

You could have CTRL-[1-5] ALT-[1-5] SHIFT-[1-5]; indeed many do but since you are clicking 2 keys at once this can cause issues with moving your hands off WASD which ruins the whole point of the speed and efficiency; in general if you have to ALT-[1-5] these abilities should be abilities you will press at rest, such as your buffs or your meditate button.

 

As a game matures you will gain more and more abilities - indeed when I left EQ2 I had 9 hotbars of 12 buttons large comepletly filled with macros, buffs and attacks. 5 of which were purely combat; that's 60 buttons with no global cooldown and needing to move and cast continually (I MTed and OTed raids at the highest level for years).

 

There is no way you can physically map all the abilities you'll ever need onto a keyboard; eventually you'll run out of space. It may be ok now... but somewhere down the line you'll reach a point when you are thinking of CTRL-SHIFT-1 to cast an ability it just gets rediculous.

 

 

 

So the most efficient means to play is actually using a combination of clicking AND key mapping. Keymapping for the speed/efficiency and clicking to give a better range of abilities

 

* Keymap your important abilities and several attacks.

* Use your mouse on hotbars for your "DPS rotation"; in general you can only enter a true DPS rotation when you don;t need to click elsewhere/select/turn camera etc etc...

 

Keep tweaking untill you've found a balance - I assure you you'll find it much easier to play once you get the hang of it... even just moving your basic attack to keymap -1 will help .

[taugrimtaugrim]

I tried to switch to binds in WoW but couldnt get into it. Age of Conan launched and i decided that I would bind from the begining.

 

The process was awful, I found it very difficult and and annoying. However I stuck at it. When I returned to WOW I found that teh difficulyt transition was over. Using Binds and mouse moving came naturallly.

 

While clicking had been fine, I find that Binding is superior. I feel as it gave me substantial boost.

 

I would suggest you try it it and stick at it for a month.

 

It definitely takes time and patience to make the transition.

 

But as you said it is worth it.

 

Key binding things is faster for most things; HOWEVER clicking allows you to have access to more abilities.

 

So the most efficient means to play is actually using a combination of clicking AND key mapping. Keymapping for the speed/efficiency and clicking to give a better range of abilities

 

Agree that you can do both, i.e. keybind the most-frequently-used stuff and click the rare, less critical abilities.

 

That being said, in order to keybind correctly you have to understand that the default keybinds for every major MMORPG are wrong for enabling skillful play.

http://taugrim.com/2011/04/07/guide-to-strafing-movement-and-keybindings/

 

The issue is that most players leave the default keybinds as-is for a lot of valuable real estate, then are forced to add modifiers or buy gaming mouse / keyboard to deal with it.

[endlessirony]

I think your performance as a player speaks for itself rather than whether you are a clicker or a binder. I used a combination of both that's what I am comfortable with, I have played with people who have fancy keyboard and expensive mouses who couldn't perform.

 

One of the best players I know plays with one arm due to real life tragedy and he performs a lot better then people with two arms. If you are getting sat because you are a clicker there's two possibilities a) they are a bunch of jerks that you are better off without or b) your performance is really awful and they are just using it as an excuse.

[Sresk]

I main tank and have 1-6, Shift 1-6 and alt 1-6 bound to my abilities, along with q a ` t r and a few others, but even then, I find that there are some things I prefer to click... I click health packs, adrenals, relics etc all in a row down the right side, and sometimes I click deflection if I am doing something else with the left hand. I've found that playing MMOs rebinding movement to esdf makes for a much easier experience in terms of key binds and I recommend you trying it.

 

In a game like this one, with no autoattack, I can't see how you can get by purely clicking while moving with the mouse but if you can, more power to you. I think the worry is threat not anything else, as threat generation in this game reall does require tight rotations etc, and a lot of fights you have to throw in a ranged move while moving around to keep up the dps as a tank.

 

 

I like your idea of esdf! I'm going to have to remap tonight.

 

To the OP I think this was pretty well covered by every one above me. But I am a hybrid clicker/hot keys. I tend to use q, e for my two most used abilities and 1-4 alt+1-4 so i hot key about 10 main abilities and click every thing else.

[alifaraaz]

Dear fellow tank,

 

Truth is, using the keyboard for skills and mouse for movement is the more efficient way. You can have very easy rotations set up with each finger at the ready.

 

HOWEVER

 

A great clicker will own an average keybinder anyday It's as simple as that. If you want to be the best, then yeah you have to be a keyboarder - but for everything lower than the best, clicking is just fine.

 

I can say this from experience, although not done endgame tankign in SWTOR, like yourself I've played all forms off tanking in WoW, both MT and OT. Never had a problem, infact without sounding arrogant - I was a pretty great tank And I've always used my mouse. I set my main moves in a nice rectangle (like 4x2) on the bottom bars, and I click away.

 

Personally I find it easier, a bit more engaging and more fun - so anyone who tells you that you can't be a good tank just cause your a clicker can well: look at your past experiences, they should speak for themselves.

 

I'd never suggest you leave or even argue with your guildies But I would have to question what kind of guild would ask you not to tank just because you click. Seems to me like they care too much for how you play - rather than how good you play.

[angrydurf]

I think the real falicy here is that while keybinds are faster the difference is not relevent for PvE. PvP is all about fractions of a second (a large part of what I loath about it personally) PvE rarely requires that kind of timing.

 

 

Really though I use a pretty hybrid approach. standard abilities are all bound and I click medpacks and emergency CDs. This works really well for ToR as to get the most out of our CDs you actually use them earlier than other MMOs where you pop CDs to stay alive a few seconds longer when sucking fumes on life. For my standard rotation abilities I use keybinds unless I'm being lazy when soloing (sometimes it's just not worth putting down your sandwich) I don't use mouse movement. rapid turning isn't needed in PvE in general and even less in ToR as you auto face when using abilities. I prefer to keep my mouse available for target acquisition (and really want nameplate targeting) as tab targeting is IMHO the worst thing ever for tanking (Heck tab targeting is pretty horrid regardless of role, #1 Reason DPS break CC is tab targeting misfires)

[Rafkin]

This game is so easy the difference in reaction times is a non-factor. Keybinding will just make you more frustrated with the generally poor reponsiveness of the game.

[damolawler]

This is an interesting discussion.

 

I have always been a clicker, and my main alt is a defense guardian. This has served me well enough in PvE, but as I start to play more and more PvP i am wondering if perhaps I shouldn't start to train myself to use the keyboard to give myself an edge.

 

Are there any good guides out there for this?

[taugrimtaugrim]

This is an interesting discussion.

 

I have always been a clicker, and my main alt is a defense guardian. This has served me well enough in PvE, but as I start to play more and more PvP i am wondering if perhaps I shouldn't start to train myself to use the keyboard to give myself an edge.

 

Are there any good guides out there for this?

 

As you play a melee, I can tell you that learning how to melee strafe makes a huge difference in being able to leverage fluid movement when fighting opponents.

 

Check out this 1-min video from my stream last night, where my 17 Sentinel downs a 40 Juggernaut who got the opener on me:

http://www.twitch.tv/taugrim/b/307122686

 

I wrote a detailed Guide with diagrams, illustrative footage, and content explaining how to setup keybinds and the benefits to do so.

http://taugrim.com/2011/04/07/guide-to-strafing-movement-and-keybindings/

 

Let me know if you have any questions, I'm happy to help.

 

P.S. so I did my first SWTOR flashpoint on live 2 nights ago - Hardmode Directive 7 as the tank. Being able to strafe via mouse movement and activate abilities via keybinds is a huge help in highly mobile fights such as the last boss Mentor.

 

Again, my point is not that you can't do PVE tanking as a clicker - of course you can. But having keybinds provides so much benefit, in particular with movement capability and being able to character turn and camera turn to see what's going on around you.

 

I've heard from many clickers who followed my stream since Beta and/or Guide and made the tough transition to keybinding, and they've said it's greatly improved their gameplay. It's not an easy transition - you have to unlearn a lot of what you know, but I wouldn't advocate making the transition so strongly if I didn't believe it would benefit you in the long run.

Edited February 1, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[isast]

I was a 2-Season Gladiator in WoW keyboard turning and clicking.

 

Let that sink in for a while.

 

That being said, no, clicking is obviously not optimal. But to be kicked out of your position because you do it is kind of ridiculous. Just because you use a style that doesn't have the highest possible result doesn't mean that you aren't better with your style than 90% of the people that keybind.

 

I swithced to keybinds a few years ago, but definitely still click some things. There is a 1.5 sec (gcd) window and I'm very fast with my eyes and mouse. If you are skilled, you won't be worse than most, as long as you know that if you ARE skilled, you will be even better with keybinds.

 

Don't let anyone force you into anything, though. If clicking is for you and you try keybinding for a few days and you just can't do it, DON'T! As long as it's not hurting you, and you play your best (and better than keybinders anyhow) clicking, have at it.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I was a 2-Season Gladiator in WoW keyboard turning and clicking.

 

Just curious, you didn't happen to play a Frost Mage, Warlock, Holy Pally, Disc Priest, or Resto Shaman, did you?

[isast]

Resto Druid. Warrior partner, then DK partner

[isast]

Frost Mage is very difficult to play as a clicker. I couldn't get past 2k on my mage till i stopped clicking lol

[taugrimtaugrim]

Resto Druid. Warrior partner, then DK partner

 

Frost Mage is very difficult to play as a clicker. I couldn't get past 2k on my mage till i stopped clicking lol

 

First of all, grats. Getting to Gladiator takes skill and great teamwork. It also helps to play strong classes, which the 4 above are all examples of

 

I find it interesting you played a melee as a clicker, given that you have to stay on top of targets.

 

The reason why I asked you which class you play is that the OP of the thread is a tank, and I find as a melee that being able to move fluidly makes it easier to pick up adds, position the boss quickly, and handle mobile fights. On top of the reaction-speed consideration.

 

I think the points you made in your earlier post are all valid:

 

That being said, no, clicking is obviously not optimal. But to be kicked out of your position because you do it is kind of ridiculous. Just because you use a style that doesn't have the highest possible result doesn't mean that you aren't better with your style than 90% of the people that keybind.

 

The main reason I talk to people about clicking-vs-keybinding is not to make the argument that they'll be better than X, Y, Z player (although it would no doubt help). It's to help someone improve their own gameplay.

 

Don't let anyone force you into anything, though. If clicking is for you and you try keybinding for a few days and you just can't do it, DON'T! As long as it's not hurting you, and you play your best (and better than keybinders anyhow) clicking, have at it.

 

The only thing I would say about that is that the transition would probably take longer than a few days.

 

Transitioning from 1 keybinding setup to another typically takes a few days.

Transitioning from clicking to keybinding is going to take longer.

 

As I wrote in my Guide, it takes time and patience to learn (new) keybinds, and the easiest way to do it is to try on a level 1 character that you level up and get the muscle memory down:

Realize that rebinding your keys is one of the most disruptive things you can do. It’s like learning to walk all over again. Therefore, you have to be patient. It typically takes a week of playing to get the muscle memory down for a new setup.

 

Do not remap your keybinds and then queue up for PVP or join a PVE raid. You will find yourself struggling and getting frustrated, because your natural reactions are to use your old keybinds. And then you’ll come blame me, and I’ll have to quote this section.

 

The easiest way to learn a new set of keybinds is to roll a new character, experiment, and by the time you hit level 10 or so, you’ll be well on your way to feeling much more comfortable with it. At that point you can try your new keybinds on higher-level characters.

[isast]

Hehe, I never got gladiator AS a dk or warrior, those were my partners. I played a resto druid both seasons. Which we all know just consisted of clicking cyclone Harr Harr lol.

But yes, I actually am in the process of remapping to something very similar to your keybinds. Love your website, very helpful for all players in my opinion.

I don't have the patience to put something like that together, and I'm glad there are people like you that really help the community. Thanks again!

[Kithalt]

If your playing a Guardian your options are limited.

 

1. Develop the dexterity of a professional pianist

2. Buy a naga

3. Click at least some of your abilities

That made me giggle. I've been playing piano since I was six (nearly 20 years now). Is that why I'm not having much trouble leveling my guardian while reading that others struggle mightily?

Edited January 31, 2012 by Kithalt

[XtremJedi]

I'm the same. Played many fingered instruments including piano to a high standard - and I too don't particularly struggle with keyboard shortcuts. I think, in particular, that jumping accurately to the "6" through "=" keys might be better for those with piano training...

 

X

[Kithalt]

Yeah. For example my taunts in world of warcraft were - and =. This made no sense to anyone but me, but it worked.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Hehe, I never got gladiator AS a dk or warrior, those were my partners. I played a resto druid both seasons. Which we all know just consisted of clicking cyclone Harr Harr lol.

But yes, I actually am in the process of remapping to something very similar to your keybinds. Love your website, very helpful for all players in my opinion.

I don't have the patience to put something like that together, and I'm glad there are people like you that really help the community. Thanks again!

 

The funny thing is I didn't put together that Guide to Strafing and Keybinding until last year.

 

I delayed creating the Guide, because the first time I made a video about keybinds and strafing in 2008, I got flamed by the WSAD people for switching from WSAD to EDSF. Turns out I ended up ditching EDSF later

 

I didn't expect the Guide to receive much attention, but when I started streaming SWTOR in Beta after the NDA lift, the #1 question people asked me was about my keybinds and how I'm able to move in combat.

 

The answer is not to simply buy a Naga or a gaming keypad. Those can help, but the root issue is the crappy default set of keybinds not hardware. I use a $13 Logitech standard mouse and a laptop keyboard.

Edited January 31, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[DiLune]

My 2 cents -- Using a 32 inch monitor. I would go crazy trying to be a clicker. The only time I click is when tab just absolutely won't go to the mob I want it to and i'm ready to throw my mouse through the screen.

[Fredcat]

Key binding things is faster for most things; HOWEVER clicking allows you to have access to more abilities.

 

Even the most ardent keybinder will still use a mouse for movement, view and none keyboard selection; this means that you only have one hand resting on the keyboard. Rest your hand there and you'll see that you could prob cover from 1 to B with ease although \, z and x will be hard to reach as are numbers over 5.

 

 

You could have CTRL-[1-5] ALT-[1-5] SHIFT-[1-5]; indeed many do but since you are clicking 2 keys at once this can cause issues with moving your hands off WASD which ruins the whole point of the speed and efficiency; in general if you have to ALT-[1-5] these abilities should be abilities you will press at rest, such as your buffs or your meditate button.

 

As a game matures you will gain more and more abilities - indeed when I left EQ2 I had 9 hotbars of 12 buttons large comepletly filled with macros, buffs and attacks. 5 of which were purely combat; that's 60 buttons with no global cooldown and needing to move and cast continually (I MTed and OTed raids at the highest level for years).

 

There is no way you can physically map all the abilities you'll ever need onto a keyboard; eventually you'll run out of space. It may be ok now... but somewhere down the line you'll reach a point when you are thinking of CTRL-SHIFT-1 to cast an ability it just gets rediculous.

 

 

 

So the most efficient means to play is actually using a combination of clicking AND key mapping. Keymapping for the speed/efficiency and clicking to give a better range of abilities

 

* Keymap your important abilities and several attacks.

* Use your mouse on hotbars for your "DPS rotation"; in general you can only enter a true DPS rotation when you don;t need to click elsewhere/select/turn camera etc etc...

 

Keep tweaking untill you've found a balance - I assure you you'll find it much easier to play once you get the hang of it... even just moving your basic attack to keymap -1 will help .

 

 

This is the best answer I've seen in this thread. I too played EQ2, and like this posters says, there was just no way to hotkey everything. I find TOR while having less skills in general still has too many to hot key everything.