ericdjobs Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) I don't get it. A *DPS* spec'd sorc/sage can mitigate more damage done to them than a tank in PVP with the way shields currently scale. Why is this? Why is a sorc/sage practically unkillable while my tank melts in a matter of seconds? Why are sorc/sages able to tank in PVP better than actual tanks? The way the shield scales is crazy at the moment. Seriously. Something has to give. Either nerf it or make it a talent in the healing tree high up. There's absolutely no reason that the 'glass cannon' should be mitigating more damage than a tank in PVP. With shields, sorc/sages can mitigate up to 15k damage vs a single person, in a single fight (multiple shields). When you see 3 dps unable to kill a sorc, yet the same 3 dps can drop your tank in under 4 seconds.. well; something is wrong. All this on the class with the highest mobility in the game, the most group utility, some of the highest healing and high damage. See the problem here? They get the best of ALL THREE WORLDS. They mitigate massive damage like tanks. They heal AMAZING amounts like healers.(I see sorcs regularly get 300-400k healing, no other class comes close) They go AMAZING dps like DPS. They are the holy trinity all in one (in pvp) On top of aoe knockbacks, friendly pulls, etc etc etc...and people wonder why there's so many? Want to tank in PVP? Roll a sorc. Want to heal in PVP? Roll a sorc. Want to DPS in PVP?.............roll a sorc come on this is seriously ridiculous Edited January 24, 2012 by ericdjobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnSixteen Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Well, if you think of a shield as just another heal instead of "mitigation" then I don't see what the problem is. It's on a cooldown and it only absorbs something like 2500 damage. There is nothing terribly OP about that. It SHOULD take a while for a dps to kill an unstunned/uninterrupted healer... otherwise there would be no point to actually playing one. It doesn't make sense for a tank to EVER kill a healer 1v1. If a healer can in turn kill you, then odds are it was a long fight AND they either outplayed or outgeared you which seems like the way it should be. Most tanks I see take quite a while to take down if they are geared and play right. Especially if you know, they buddy up with a healer as they should be. Edited January 24, 2012 by JohnSixteen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raque Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Are you trying to tank naked? Because if you are actually wearing gear tanks can mitigate 10x the damage of a Sorc/Sage in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathid Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Are you trying to tank naked? Because if you are actually wearing gear tanks can mitigate 10x the damage of a Sorc/Sage in pvp. Hmm i wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XoOKyoji Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Are you trying to tank naked? Because if you are actually wearing gear tanks can mitigate 10x the damage of a Sorc/Sage in pvp. +1. lmfao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericdjobs Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Are you trying to tank naked? Because if you are actually wearing gear tanks can mitigate 10x the damage of a Sorc/Sage in pvp. Either you haven't PVP'd much, or you have only played against bad players. I don't use tank gear in PVP, no, because it's pointless to do so. Mitigation/defense stats are currently *broken* and don't really provide any sort of benefit in PVP.. defense a little, shield/absorb? Lol. A sorc who knows how to play, and uses his bubble properly, can survive more total damage than a tank. Easily. It's obviously very out of line.. just look at all the threads about it. Same thing happened with operative before they were nerfed, sorcs are just next on the list. We just need to continue to be vocal about it. Then again, maybe you think a class with the best control, damage, healing, survivability, and mobility is balanced? Eventually the number of sorcs will become even more ridiculous than it is now.. if things continue the way they are. Edited January 24, 2012 by ericdjobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlaid Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 If I actually had a combat log, I think I would test this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostBullk Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 It's absurd that a class that is ranged also gets a sprint, and to top the sprint 2 roots to choose 1 oh and a stun oh and an interrupt oh and pointless to go healing because dpsed spec heals just as much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericdjobs Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 If I actually had a combat log, I think I would test this. I honestly WISH I could. Of course I can't, so my claims are solely based from experience. From what I have seen, in the hundreds of warzones I've played, the most difficult to kill players are well-geared and effectively played Sorcerors and Sages. And not just for me, the entire team. I've seen countless warzones ending with (always) a sage/sorc sitting on 150-250k damage and 250-400k healing, on top of 75-100k protection, no other class even CLOSE. Sure, other classes will pump 300k damage, but no healing whatsoever. They also have the best mobility and control in the game. Like I said, if anyone seriously thinks the class with the best mobility, survivability, damage, healing, and control is balanced.... they should seriously rethink their assumption. I could care less to tell you the truth, my problem is that eventually 80% of the population is going to be playing sorc/sages as mains, you'll only need some tanks for PvE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strenif Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) I'd rather make tanks stats work in pvp then nerf sorcs/sages. But ya as a Vanguard I live just as long as assault in dps gear as I do shield in tank gear. I like the tank spec, charge is awesome and guard is massively useful in a pre-made. Edited January 24, 2012 by Strenif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SynapseX Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I honestly WISH I could. Of course I can't, so my claims are solely based from experience. From what I have seen, in the hundreds of warzones I've played, the most difficult to kill players are well-geared and effectively played Sorcerors and Sages. And not just for me, the entire team. I've seen countless warzones ending with (always) a sage/sorc sitting on 150-250k damage and 250-400k healing, on top of 75-100k protection, no other class even CLOSE. Sure, other classes will pump 300k damage, but no healing whatsoever. They also have the best mobility and control in the game. Like I said, if anyone seriously thinks the class with the best mobility, survivability, damage, healing, and control is balanced.... they should seriously rethink their assumption. I could care less to tell you the truth, my problem is that eventually 80% of the population is going to be playing sorc/sages as mains, you'll only need some tanks for PvE Wait, you saw a sorc with 75-100k protection? Sorcs get guard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xeviltoasterx Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) What the **** I can't even imagine tanking with my sorc my static shield is nice but is in NO WAY making me a tank, in both PVE and PVP O have many times had it knocked off in a matter of a few seconds. Then I'm squishy as hell. Who are you playing against?! Oh, and anyone who says a truly dps specced sorc heals just as good as a healing sorc has absolutely no *********** idea what they're talking about. If you base this off a sorc healer that you've played with they were terrible. End of story. As a dps sorc I have 2 very subpar heals that never do anything for me because of their very mediocre to just plain bad total healing to casting time ratio. Maybe they're useful in PVE when you have little to no aggro, but if a dps sorc is getting away with healing in PVP then the other players are doing something terribly wrong. I can't even see why this is up for discussion. Edited January 24, 2012 by xeviltoasterx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strenif Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 No they get shield which prevents damage which I think (could be wrong) counts towards defense medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericdjobs Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Wait, you saw a sorc with 75-100k protection? Sorcs get guard? Shields count as healing and protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steww Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 As a sorc with only a few pieces of champ gear I'm still pretty squishy against melee classes. Now if I have a good tank guarding me and taunting I can keep myself alive very easily, when people aren't smart enough to separate me from my tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soultyr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I have a lvl 45 dps sage, and a lvl 14 guardian. The guardian can beat my sage 1v1... Though not by much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soultyr Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Shields count as healing and protection. I have not been able to reproduce what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semitote Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Here's a fun fact: Sorc/Sage has 10% base defense. Juggernaut has 5%. Hurray for ranged casters having more base defense than a tank / heavy armor melee DPS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaniWes Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Are you trying to tank naked? Because if you are actually wearing gear tanks can mitigate 10x the damage of a Sorc/Sage in pvp. Your nerf is coming after 1.1.1, don't worry. Adapt or reroll while you still can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raque Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Either you haven't PVP'd much, or you have only played against bad players. I don't use tank gear in PVP, no, because it's pointless to do so. Mitigation/defense stats are currently *broken* and don't really provide any sort of benefit in PVP.. defense a little, shield/absorb? Lol. A sorc who knows how to play, and uses his bubble properly, can survive more total damage than a tank. Easily. It's obviously very out of line.. just look at all the threads about it. Same thing happened with operative before they were nerfed, sorcs are just next on the list. We just need to continue to be vocal about it. Then again, maybe you think a class with the best control, damage, healing, survivability, and mobility is balanced? Eventually the number of sorcs will become even more ridiculous than it is now.. if things continue the way they are. Ya, thats it, I must be awful. I never said anything about tank gear, but just gear in general as being naked is the ONLY way a tank would take more damage then a Sorc. You realize our shield only mitigates 3-4k damage and can only be applied every 20 seconds (17 with 2 piece healer set bonus). As I wear cloth armor, the armor I wear mitigates very little unlike a tank's gear. I have ~15.5k ish health in my pvp gear and equally geared tanks are in the ~19k ish range so even with my shield we have about the same HP to death but I have no mitigation, no defensive cooldowns, and longer refresh timers on my control cooldowns. You are crazy if you do not think tanks can mitigate more damage, especially with defensive cooldowns, and control they have they are crazy indestructible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KorwinOfAmber Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I am getting tired of this old "omg sorcs are unkillable" Troll. Try something new? Like tell that Juggernauts force choke you to death from 30m away or something. Be creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxion Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Well, if you think of a shield as just another heal instead of "mitigation" then I don't see what the problem is. It's on a cooldown and it only absorbs something like 2500 damage. There is nothing terribly OP about that. It SHOULD take a while for a dps to kill an unstunned/uninterrupted healer... otherwise there would be no point to actually playing one. It doesn't make sense for a tank to EVER kill a healer 1v1. If a healer can in turn kill you, then odds are it was a long fight AND they either outplayed or outgeared you which seems like the way it should be. Most tanks I see take quite a while to take down if they are geared and play right. Especially if you know, they buddy up with a healer as they should be. The problem is the broken tanking for tank classes. I agree, in principle, with what you say but it doesn't happen like that with the current mechanics. Tanks (from the perspective of a Vanguard, shield spec (my main)) are useless. One of their primary damage mitigation factors is their reactive shield (not the skill one) which as it currently stands is as good as useless because it only procs on basic melee and ranged attacks, and the very occasional skill. The vast majority of the skill attacks you will sustain will not activate you shield (defence chance is the same) therefore, the tank class has no tank. Well, no more than a commando anyway. Match that with their reduced DPS (which I expect for a tank build), they are nothing more than an easy kill for most enemies. The most effective spec I have seen seems to be a bit of a hybrid with most into the Tactics tree, going toward a DPS build. Why should a tank have to spec DPS to have a useful role in a WZ? Are you trying to tank naked? Because if you are actually wearing gear tanks can mitigate 10x the damage of a Sorc/Sage in pvp. How, when you look at the details above? Most tanks will go from full health to dead in less time than the duration of a Sorcs shield. Expertise helps, but it only brings their tanking on par with a DPS spec Commando / Merc unless they have lots of expertise gear and being attacked by someone with very little. I'd rather make tanks stats work in pvp then nerf sorcs/sages. But ya as a Vanguard I live just as long as assault in dps gear as I do shield in tank gear. I like the tank spec, charge is awesome and guard is massively useful in a pre-made. This. I agree, as a Vanguard in tank gear you should last a good bit longer than a similarly geared DPS spec. Wait, you saw a sorc with 75-100k protection? Sorcs get guard? The can put their shield on other players = protection. As a sorc with only a few pieces of champ gear I'm still pretty squishy against melee classes. Now if I have a good tank guarding me and taunting I can keep myself alive very easily, when people aren't smart enough to separate me from my tank. This is very true, guard itself is useful in that respect. Easy solution is as you say, knockback between them or just focus the tank themselves as they will go down very quick, so no more guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 this one has to be the best troll thread yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WookieBob Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 As a sorc with only a few pieces of champ gear I'm still pretty squishy against melee classes. Now if I have a good tank guarding me and taunting I can keep myself alive very easily, when people aren't smart enough to separate me from my tank. always nice to see teamwork and people who understand the possibilities that it brings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spootybeaver Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) I don't get it. A *DPS* spec'd sorc/sage can mitigate more damage done to them than a tank in PVP with the way shields currently scale. LOL bad troll, BAD! add a SS or go home Edited January 24, 2012 by Spootybeaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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