Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Scaire]

My video shows the delay with the queue of my next ability when no animation takes part. I agree there has been a step in the right direction, but the delay is still there. Not only with animations playing a part; but as long as the game communicates your input with the server first, as opposed to the client first then executing math via server, you will have input delay. Like I have stated before (I think you will see I do not lack insight), WoW creates an illusion of control by allowing the client to react first. Which is why when you lag out, you can still move and execute abilities but your abilities will not mathematically apply unless it communicates with the server. As a result, your PC specs and internet speed will take a part in displaying said numbers and opposition executions, but your input and animations will occur client side. With TOR communicating all server side and prioritizing animations, you have a clunky system.

 

I think what is happening here is people such as yourself are selling short. I refuse to be exited at the fact that my abilities actually go through now because the delay, for me, is till stagnant. There is more reliability, but as long as queuing abilities (the act of the system executing my next ability which should be fast than spamming or manual input) results in anything more than .1 lag--I will ALWAYS feel it.

 

Until then, I will not be content.

 

I agree with everything you have said here. My comment on a lack of intuition was not directed at you in any way. It was directed at the astounding number of people claiming that this was not fixed because they can replicate the "mounting then moving bug" (discussed in many other threads) which obviously has nothing to do with the delay we are discussing.

 

I did not mean to sound as if I was content, or selling short, but this is only because I am so surprised at the drastic improvement I am seeing today with the fix implemented. I expect (hope) that they will not stop until we do indeed get delay that is not percievable to even the most experienced gamers.

 

To be honest, when I saw the patch notes stating that they had a fix, I did not expect anything. I expected to log on today only to play and feel physically exhausted after playing several hours in a game of quicksand. Instead, I was pleasantly surprised. This has given me a lot of hope for the future of this game.

[Sstreet]

You know, one big thing I've noticed is that I am running out of energy easier and my fiancee noted that she is running out of power cells faster too because of the delay missing now, things are happening much faster... more abilities, more resource usage.

 

This down the line, may lead to tweaking of resources (regen or ability requirements).

 

I noticed that also, Was tracer spamming and was like "Omg im max Heat Again". Gonna have to come up with a more efficient rotation now. But nevertheless I LOVE IT!!!.

[Dunzo]

And either way you wait for the GCD

 

anyways they fixed a bunch of it with today's patch and more incoming so it looks good imo

 

GCD is not what anyone is complaining about, or rather the proper use of GCD. What Bioware has fixed and will fix in 1.1.1 is the other side to the ability delay issue relating to fps/performance issues, not anything related to their animation which seems to be part of their design.

 

Cast attack - wait for 'cool' animation - damage. Looks good, but feels bad. And again, it is not "instant". If they want limit people's chaining of certain attacks, that's what CDs and the GCD is for, animation delay is just silly and non productive.

[Riggler]

...WoW creates an illusion of control by allowing the client to react first. Which is why when you lag out, you can still move and execute abilities but your abilities will not mathematically apply unless it communicates with the server. As a result, your PC specs and internet speed will take a part in displaying said numbers and opposition executions, but your input and animations will occur client side. With TOR communicating all server side and prioritizing animations, you have a clunky system.

 

I absolutely hate that I you can still activate abilities and think I am hitting something only to find out that the mob has moved out of range, etc all because of server and/or network lag...on the contrary I also hate it when a game just freezes because of server and/or network lag...but if I have to choose between the two, I probably would pick server side over client side...just my opinion...nothing more...

[jndca]

Hey Bioware.. i know you tried to fix these issues but they are STILL THERE. FIX THEM. Or this game will get old really fast.

[Toweleeeie]

"being a twitch-based monkey doesn't make one more skilled."

 

Yes, yes it does. Reflexes is what determines your skill in about 95% of video games.

[Xcore]

Rofl, mods sure cleaned through the past two pages... but in any case:

 

"Twitch" certainly does make one better as it is simply: reflex/reaction time and mental agility/cognition.

 

Once again, I'll invoke my example of Starcraft 2 and the extreme levels of APM.... (by which many are judged).

[TheRealDestian]

Rofl, mods sure cleaned through the past two pages... but in any case:

 

"Twitch" certainly does make one better as it is simply: reflex/reaction time and mental agility/cognition.

 

Once again, I'll invoke my example of Starcraft 2 and the extreme levels of APM.... (by which many are judged).

 

Twitch helps, but strategy can play a huge role in PvP as well.

 

Tricking enemies into burning an interrupt via fake casting, for example...

[Feskitt]

Actually it does, I am sorry to say but reaction time and reflexes do make one a better player at just about any game with the exclusion of puzzles and chess. Though even there mental agility in the form of reaction time/reflexes are what differentiate the players.

 

I'm not sure why you believe "twitch' to be bad... its a sign of reflex, reaction and mental agility/cognition.

 

Have you ever seen a pro Starcraft 2 game? The higher APMs are generally know to be more skillful, unless someone is just a very talented macro player (no silly, not that kind of macro... you're cute).

 

 

 

Look, I know you "think" you know what you're talking about when it comes to these things, but it really is ok to admit that you don't exactly... its fine. For example, I would never claim to know the intricacies of sowing...

I'm not knowledgeable in either sowing or sewing.

 

 

Anyhow, no, in this game, being a twitchy thing isn't the most important factor, and doesn't matter as much as knowing your class and it's abilities. That's intentional design.

 

Many in this thread despise that. Maybe you're one of them.

 

 

Anyhow, all I can say is I can dish out damage, kills, and wins most of the time. (and I'm in PUGs, don't use Rakata packs, and obviously don't use hacks, apparently unlike everyone else in WZs) And thankfully, BW won't cave to a simplistic mentality that thinks it should abort all animations and make it all a FPS slobbering twitch-fest.

 

 

ps. LOL how you and yours got nothing but ambiguous b.s. elitist insinuations, in place of proof of your own god-like infallibility as humanity's supreme gamers, any time you're called out, ha ha ha!

 

 

 

[Wikar]

Twitch helps, but strategy can play a huge role in PvP as well.

 

Tricking enemies into burning an interrupt via fake casting, for example...

 

Aaaand we back to reflexes\game responsive in a fake casting strategy also.

 

All your so called "strategys" will be successful only once (since people did't saw them before) , but second time it's only matter of reflexes if it's can be countered or in game imbalance if it's can't be countered.

[Xcore]

Twitch helps, but strategy can play a huge role in PvP as well.

 

Tricking enemies into burning an interrupt via fake casting, for example...

 

Of course lol, no-one here would argue that strategy is irrelevant. Look at some top arena play, that is insane amounts of strategy, akin to a chess match...

 

Twitch, in the form of reflex,reaction time, APM is necessary and a huge factor.... Players at higher levels of these qualities also are far more sensitive to this discussion.

 

For me, PvP until today's patch was highly frustrating and I'd say 90% unplayable, 100% un-enjoyable. Tonight It was not only payable but also enjoyable... However, having said that there will be players at far higher levels of play than me, who still notice this and In fact still perceive it as un-playable.

 

I daresay a SC2 pro would find it unplayable (apples/oranges withstanding)

 

 

The delay is not 100% resolved, perhaps almost there. I stress that the overall feeling of Avatar Responsiveness and Control is actually still further away as it also deals with Animation/Sound/UI Sync and more...

[Starglide]

I agree with everything you have said here. My comment on a lack of intuition was not directed at you in any way. It was directed at the astounding number of people claiming that this was not fixed because they can replicate the "mounting then moving bug" (discussed in many other threads) which obviously has nothing to do with the delay we are discussing.

 

I did not mean to sound as if I was content, or selling short, but this is only because I am so surprised at the drastic improvement I am seeing today with the fix implemented. I expect (hope) that they will not stop until we do indeed get delay that is not percievable to even the most experienced gamers.

 

To be honest, when I saw the patch notes stating that they had a fix, I did not expect anything. I expected to log on today only to play and feel physically exhausted after playing several hours in a game of quicksand. Instead, I was pleasantly surprised. This has given me a lot of hope for the future of this game.

 

Noted. I am happy if I reach just one person through the battles and regurgitating. I hope you will join us on the mission to an immaculate connection with the force... I mean our avatars.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Starglide

[Xcore]

I'm not knowledgeable in either sowing or sewing.

 

 

Anyhow, no, in this game, being a twitchy thing isn't the most important factor, and doesn't matter as much as knowing your class and it's abilities. That's intentional design.

 

Many in this thread despise that. Maybe you're one of them.

 

 

Anyhow, all I can say is I can dish out damage, kills, and wins most of the time. (and I'm in PUGs, don't use Rakata packs, and obviously don't use hacks, apparently unlike everyone else in WZs) And thankfully, BW won't cave to a simplistic mentality that thinks it should abort all animations and make it all a FPS slobbering twitch-fest.

 

 

ps. LOL how you and yours got nothing but ambiguous b.s. elitist insinuations, in place of proof of your own god-like infallibility as humanity's supreme gamers, any time you're called out, ha ha ha!

 

 

 

 

1) The combat in SW:TOR is based on the exact same design as WoW, reaction time, reflex and APM is just as important as in WoW. Why are you afraid of this? Why are you against this so called "twitch"? Why are you against fast reaction times, reflexes and high APM?

 

2) Your listed accolades are 100% irrelevant, bragging about what you accomplish in PUG BGs is just about the best way to ruin your credebility towards any high level player.

 

3) What are you talking about elitism for? What is elitism? What do you mean by proving superior gaming skills?

[TheRealDestian]

All your so called "strategys" will be successful only once (since people did't saw them before) , but second time it's only matter of reflexes if it's can be countered or in game imbalance if it's can't be countered.

 

Actually, no. Fake casting works as many times as you need it to because you turn every cast into a guessing game until you're sure they've burned their interrupt.

 

And you want more strategy?

 

-breaking LoS to force ranged classes into closer combat.

-pretending to retreat in order to fool shadows/assassins into burning their force speed.

-running AWAY from objectives when you know you're being chased by multiple enemies.

-maneuvering enemies onto ledges and knocking them off (easier to do than you'd think).

-acting as "the bait" in a PvP fight by being the first player who all enemies are likely to tab target (preferably done by a tank with a healer).

 

And that's just off the top of my head. I could go over all class abilities and list more strategies, but you get the idea.

Edited January 25, 2012 by TheRealDestian

[Mutica]

I have noticed for some things on my Shadow dps, that it is better.

 

But still for me in PvP, as a shadow dps, the delay is still there and absolutely killer. My main opener and in general move is Shadow Strike, in order to execute I have to be behind the target. The same mechanics as rogue's backstab in WoW. Now in a Warzone, when you are moving fast and trying to stay behind your target... that ability has to go off instantly; and a lot of times it just doesn't by the time the system recognizes it the opponent has turned slightly or whatnot. I PvP'ed a rogue in WoW, and this was just never an issue.

 

Lots of times, the ability tries to fire, the animation starts and then stops... or stutters. Its as if at keypress or keyrelease the conditions have been met, but fractions of a second later they are not met, so the animation stops. It just takes the fun out of PvP for me; throwing on sprint and moving fast and circle strafing your opponent with backstabs is twitch, but I can do it; just not in this game, its not responsive enough.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Mutica

[imscared]

Unfortunately I still notice a delay as well. It's gotten better since the last patch, but it's still pretty bothersome to use an ability and it simply take an extra few (very noticeable) fractions of a second to execute, beyond the average user to network latency.

[Feskitt]

1) The combat in SW:TOR is based on the exact same design as WoW, reaction time, reflex and APM is just as important as in WoW. Why are you afraid of this? Why are you against this so called "twitch"? Why are you against fast reaction times, reflexes and high APM?

Don't know or care about WoW or any other game. Irrelevant to the non-problem of realistic animations of TORs combat.

 

2) Your listed accolades are 100% irrelevant, bragging about what you accomplish in PUG BGs is just about the best way to ruin your credebility towards any high level player.

 

Not accolades. Just actual results from casual PvP for a week. Proving that decent PvP players like me notice no supposed delay, at least in my class, nor when I bothered asking others in chat, and NO ONE noticed it. (excluding glitches, of course) Cause it's not a delay. It's realistic movements. Thus eliminating yet another one of the b.s. excuses. (remember how you and yours keep shifting the goalpost each time it's passed? Now you gotta make a new one, beyond "well you just don't PvP, so you just don't see it.")

 

3) What are you talking about elitism for? What is elitism? What do you mean by proving superior gaming skills?

 

 

You, pretending anyone who doesn't "see it" simply isn't 'good enough' to see it. When quite a few have no problems, see no problems, and are no doubt better than whatever you supposedly are.

 

Anyhow, at least you got another bump for this thread, since that seems to be the real motivating factor in most responses in it.

 

 

 

@ Gangbot -- a thoughtful and measured response. I'd never guess you for a 'twitch-based' awareness.

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2012 by Feskitt

[indelible]

2) Your listed accolades are 100% irrelevant, bragging about what you accomplish in PUG BGs is just about the best way to ruin your credebility towards any high level player.

 

There's this weird perception of so-called "high level players" that portray "them" as being so far beyond "normal" players that they cease to enjoy the same trappings as "normal" players. It's utter none sense. The enjoyment may well be enhanced because they are privy to an element of the game others are not so familiar with, but that does not throw them beyond the other aspects

 

I enjoy PvP quite a lot when I'm involved in a well organised premade; we play to the objectives, fulfil our roles and "play for the win" as hard as we can. However when I'm not in a premade, I tend towards topping damage and kills. Sometimes, just for a challenge, I'll play for medals. I may even try to motivate and "direct" PUG groups into winning.

 

These so-called "high level players" play the game in near-exactly the same way you do, and invariably they enjoy the good elements of the game same as you.

 

Edit: I'm not suggesting that posting screenshots of your accomplishments is a good idea. Realistically... unless you are sure that you are one of, if not the best player for your class in the world, or have some demonstrable stature that qualifies your accomplishments, you're invariably going to find that there are quite a few other people who are quite a bit better than you are.

Edited January 25, 2012 by indelible

[lethal_ghost]

does abilities just not going off at all count as ability delay

[EmeraldArcana]

I don't think anyone here advocates breaking any pretty animations. However, responsive gameplay should always trump cosmetics and animations. Gameplay should always trump "anything" in a game where "action" is forefront, from SuperMario through Tetris to WoW and SW:TOR...

 

I have a feeling that this game may be a game that differs from WoW in this respect - that your animations may always have an influence with respect to your decisions.

 

In many respects SW:TOR may end up resembling a fighting game (a la Street Fighter) in that once your ability is executed you have to commit to it, and players may have to compensate for that.

 

While it's important to ensure that abilities are fired in a timely manner, that checks (position, etc.) are done in a good manner, and that the UI properly communicates the intention of each spell - ex: if a spell takes 2.0 seconds to cast, with a 0.2 second "flourish" then really the spell should say, "2.0 + 0.2 seconds" on its tooltip and be reflected in its UI) I would consider the fact that the animation style may be something that the designers fundamentally and consciously decide to keep - in other words, it's part of the game and is distinct from WoW in this respect.

 

Just something to consider.

Edited January 25, 2012 by EmeraldArcana

[gurugeorge]

There does seem to be quite a bit of an improvement, but it's not perfect; I guess we just have to wait for the rest of the little fixes to come in.

 

One thing, though, I was in a mission where I was distracted for a bit and doing something with my left hand, and carried on playing with mouse-clicks on the icons - I was amazed at how much more responsive it felt to icon clicks than to keypresses. Could be just my crappy keyboard (but then that's a constant with games that have better responsiveness).

 

Just a thought, maybe there's some sort of "path" in the software that's optimized better for icon clicks than keypresses or something? Suggest people try it, see if there's a noticeable difference for them (just out of interest).

 

Otherwise: keep up the good work BW, noticeable difference, keep refining it and tweaking it till it's perfect!

 

I think those who want severe animation-cancelling like WoW are going to be disappointed still, but barring that, it's much more fluid now within its own style, and I think will continue to get better judging by the remaining fixes in the blogpost.

[Feskitt]

"being a twitch-based monkey doesn't make one more skilled."

 

Yes, yes it does. Reflexes is what determines your skill in about 95% of video games.

 

Probably means nothing in most single-player games or campaigns. Even in most combat in most FPS's. (depending what you're calling 'twitch) I'm betting being accurate matters more than pure twitch-based speed. That's debatable I suppose.

 

Certainly means little in most all RPGs, RTS, strategy games, etc.

 

 

In online modes of those games, reaction-time can be an issue, (assuming they're not turn-based) so sometimes, being fast plays a role. But being 'efficient' and having a good plan or rotation or pre-determined strategy definitely plays a role... that's not what I would call being 'twitchy,' and definitely not what folks in this thread are apparently wanting to see in TOR's combat.

 

I can (usually) rattle off a myriad of combos and rotations at just the right moment in TOR's PvP. I can often 'stack' attacks on top of one another. It's got nothing to do with 'twitchiness' on my part.

 

 

 

[Ljungen]

I barely notice any ability delay anymore.

[Wickedcat]

So did they fix the problem that ability animation keeps repeating itself, but the actual ability never goes off?

 

Try cast Force Leap -> Ravage (cast Ravage as quick as u can after Force Leap), it's so damn funny

[TeoHTime]

I'm seeing no improvement, presumably whatever has been changed is 1 particular specific problem, the patch notes refer to low FPS which isn't something i suffer from.

 

I still have constant issues with abilities that are off the GCD not firing as an infi Shadow, in particular kick, evasion, vanish and cloak of shadows (derp) all fail repeatedly despite them being off GCD, off cooldown and my character not being stunned. I percieve this to be an issue with the commands not being performed while my character is in the middle of certain animations, including parry animations and several of my regular attacks.

 

Backstab (derp) also continues to 'activate', trigger GCD, begin its animation but then stop mid way through the animation and cancel itself on a regular basis. It's particularly noticable in PvE against large bosses and mobs that are in a fixed position, when i can guaruntee that i am behind the stationary mob being tanked, i can stand in place and watch backstab fail over and over again.

 

Moving to a different spot (still behind the mob) usually resolves this, but the cancellation of the move mid way makes no sense. In PvP i don't have as many problems, as jumping all over the target and mashing the key seems to consistantly throw the attack out without it cancelling, providing the target isn't stunned.... The fact that a stunned stationary target is harder to backstab than one moving around doesn't seem normal, and having to mash and hope your ability activates really doesn't feel satisfying at all.

 

Moving outside the realm of bugs and questionable netcode behaviour, there is also still the problem of several 'instant' attacks that have such a long activation time that you might as well put a cast bar on them, and the whacky interactions you get when things happen before the ability comes out. Force wave for shadows is an 'instant' aoe knockback, that takes about 1.5 seconds to cast. Once you've mashed the button sufficiently enough for the game to recognise that you want to use it, this ability then triggers an extremely long animation where you jump up into the air, land, and then knock people back. If certain things happen mid 'cast', such as another player using a knockdown or pushback on you, the move apparently fails to trigger, but consumes force and goes on cooldown.

 

The sith equivalent class has the same ability, and is likely to use it in the same situations (whenever you come into range of eachother on a huttball walkway) but as the sith animation is significantly faster, his attack will win in all cases.

 

Shadow also has an 'instant cast' nuke that comes out so slowly that you can cloak of shadows it on reaction, and avoid all damage. Brilliant idea, whoever came up with that one.