Why 1.1.1 is going to buff concealment (beware, math inside)

[Threskov]

Its not a buff, you could do the same rotation you mentioned in first post by not specing into jaring strike, and you still had more dmg in hidden strike, and acid blade AI.

[Blazingsky]

Ssh! It was suppose to be a secret!

Let us noobs figure it out ourselves!

 

+1 for this thread.

 

 

EDIT: Hmm, any idea where Sever Tendon should be in the rotation? Or should it be left out? Maybe an optional move?

Edited January 24, 2012 by Blazingsky

[Kieran]

Let's balance a class around perfect situations that take into account an opponent who just stands still and does nothing nor do his teammates, that sounds reasonable to me. Let's also use our AoE mez to gain a single kill instead of saving it for when we get into a group fight and can actually mez more than one person thus helping our team.

 

In before the rage.

[CaptainInsano]

Irrelevant really. The main point is that Jarring Strikes is being nerfed into a useless talent that will actually be counterproductive to take as your perfect scenario, blowing all cooldowns for one opponent while his are all down analysis shows. Bottom line: at 1.5s Jarring Strikes needs to fill up no more of the resolve bar than the Asassin's opener or they might as well just delete the talent and replace with something useful.

[pelijr]

Ssh! It was suppose to be a secret!

Let us noobs figure it out ourselves!

 

+1 for this thread.

 

 

EDIT: Hmm, any idea where Sever Tendon should be in the rotation? Or should it be left out? Maybe an optional move?

 

Immediately following debilitate wearing off, or possibly after the Backstab. Will have to experiment.

[EssFerret]

The OP is horribly wrong about what actually happens in a fight. After the cc is broken you are going to get knocked back, stunned, 2v1'd, or rooted. No decent player is going to let you get that rotation off.

 

The reason we need CC is not for opener burst, it's for our sustain. FFS, Our sustain is so bad the only way we can out dps a well specc'd healer's self heals is by cc'ing them and interrupting them.

 

We need CC at the beginning of the fight to pull off our opener. We need CC in the sustain to be able to finish (we have no closer and no finisher). If we are using our In-Combat CC as our opener then we do not have it available for the finisher.

 

You can play your rotation in PvP right now. There is no need to wait for 1.1.1. Go try it you will see that I am exactly right. And when testing don't hunt the noobs off by themselves, we already know they die quick to any rotation. Try to take down a player that actually knows what they are doing. If you don't get CC'd after your no-stun opener, you aren't playing a good player. A GCD is plenty of time to target and cc someone.

Edited January 24, 2012 by EssFerret

[RyanSeacrest]

Traditional openers with 1.1.1 nerfs will still be better than what op is suggesting. The very first thing a sorc will do is aoe pushback an op. You are either going to eat nockback after HS or eat it after DB and be short another important cooldown.

[Cowflab]

Here is a novel idea and one ops players have thrown out for a month. "If you're worried about not killing someone with your opening sequence, bring a teammate so they can cc the guy killing you. This game isn't a 1v1 deathmatch."

 

 

Ziiiiiiiiiiiiiing...

[Crawler]

Can't do Sleeping dart out of stealth, and can't do Orbital strike IN stealth since Cover OR Crouch throws you out. Can't do this rotation at all.

 

Since when orbital strike must be used in cover?

 

either way...

stealth ->sleeping dart -> destealth - wait till 1s left on stealth CD -> cast orbital strike -> stealth - AB - hit HS just before first strike goes off -> rest

 

energy can be easily neglected by using adrenaline probe before stealth.

 

You need to see dose of sarcasm in this rotation but outside that its doable.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Crawler

[YpaWinz]

I think what most people are missing here is that there's always an optimal damage rotation but any player worth his salt is going to adapt to the opponent he's facing. You have these tools at your disposal to use when the time is right. If they trinket your first debilitate, you have to adapt. If they trinket flashbang, you have to adapt. If they stun you, kite you, root you, snare you, etc... you have to adapt.

 

If, in your toolbox, you have a hammer, a screwdriver and a wrench, you're going to use the one that best suits the situation you're in. You're not just gonna hammer, screw, wrench, repeat.

[ExiledOne]

I think what most people are missing here is that there's always an optimal damage rotation but any player worth his salt is going to adapt to the opponent he's facing. You have these tools at your disposal to use when the time is right. If they trinket your first debilitate, you have to adapt. If they trinket flashbang, you have to adapt. If they stun you, kite you, root you, snare you, etc... you have to adapt.

 

If, in your toolbox, you have a hammer, a screwdriver and a wrench, you're going to use the one that best suits the situation you're in. You're not just gonna hammer, screw, wrench, repeat.

 

You forgot a few things, I'll fix.

 

IF they trinket your first debilitate, flash bang, you now have 8 seconds to kill them, good luck.

 

If they trinket flash bang, pray your cloaking screen is up.

 

If they stun you, escape out, hope debilitate is up and they haven't run.

If they kite you, you die.

If they root you, hope you can escape, and pray CS is up.

If they snare you, pray escape is up, no cs, you die

[YpaWinz]

You forgot a few things, I'll fix.

 

IF they trinket your first debilitate, flash bang, you now have 8 seconds to kill them, good luck.

 

If they trinket flash bang, pray your cloaking screen is up.

 

If they stun you, escape out, hope debilitate is up and they haven't run.

If they kite you, you die.

If they root you, hope you can escape, and pray CS is up.

If they snare you, pray escape is up, no cs, you die

 

...if you flashbang, I don't see how you "have 8 seconds to kill them" considering it breaks on damage.

 

The only thing I get from this is that you die a lot.

[ExiledOne]

...if you flashbang, I don't see how you "have 8 seconds to kill them" considering it breaks on damage.

 

The only thing I get from this is that you die a lot.

 

Typically DB is back up and I can hit that, ab, backstab, shiv, and lacerate, if I'm lucky it'll take them out.

 

And yes I die a lot, because all I see in WZs now are Troopers, Sages, and Guardians.

 

In Huttball it's Bounty Hunters with their grapple, Sorcs with bubble and lightning, and assassins with shields.

 

People really have no idea how vulnerable an operative is versus other classes do they?

 

I get lucky and maybe get in a lone straggler, a weak and wounded gazelle in the herd, but I sure as hell am not taking out the strongest one.

[YpaWinz]

Typically DB is back up and I can hit that, ab, backstab, shiv, and lacerate, if I'm lucky it'll take them out.

 

And yes I die a lot, because all I see in WZs now are Troopers, Sages, and Guardians.

 

In Huttball it's Bounty Hunters with their grapple, Sorcs with bubble and lightning, and assassins with shields.

 

People really have no idea how vulnerable an operative is versus other classes do they?

 

I get lucky and maybe get in a lone straggler, a weak and wounded gazelle in the herd, but I sure as hell am not taking out the strongest one.

 

I won't deny that in a lot of situations we are at a disadvantage. Warzones are kind of tough to judge anyway since it's rarely a 1v1 situation, even if it starts out that way.

[Vallowen]

wait what?

 

you can do more dmg with more globals?

 

SOMEONE INFORM THE POLICE!!!!!

 

 

theres nothing stopping you doing your second scenario RIGHT NOW. and doing MORE DAMAGE BECAUSE HS AND ARMOR PEN ARE BEING NERFED

[Vallowen]

Typically DB is back up and I can hit that, ab, backstab, shiv, and lacerate, if I'm lucky it'll take them out.

 

And yes I die a lot, because all I see in WZs now are Troopers, Sages, and Guardians.

 

In Huttball it's Bounty Hunters with their grapple, Sorcs with bubble and lightning, and assassins with shields.

 

People really have no idea how vulnerable an operative is versus other classes do they?

 

I get lucky and maybe get in a lone straggler, a weak and wounded gazelle in the herd, but I sure as hell am not taking out the strongest one.

 

DB is back up straight after they trinket it? some how i doubt it

[Mhak]

OP, why do you bother doing math when your logic is extremely broken?

 

1st fallacy - You're banking on the "new ideal" opener to never be broken. If you're a level 50 Op you know damn well that's bullcrap and you'd be lucky to get off that combo more than 50% of the time without your opponent breaking Debilitate.

 

2nd fallacy - We can already do the "new ideal" opener in your post. And as of now, it does more damage than it will after the patch. The only difference is that right now Debilitate wouldn't apply its stun because of a full resolve bar. Regardless, that opener right now we can still do and it will do less damage after the patch. That's called a freaking nerf, OP.

 

Ergo, you are wrong. Your math isn't math it's just twisted numbers arranged to skew the situation. And it fails at doing so.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Mhak

[pelijr]

Since when orbital strike must be used in cover?

 

either way...

stealth ->sleeping dart -> destealth - wait till 1s left on stealth CD -> cast orbital strike -> stealth - AB - hit HS just before first strike goes off -> rest

 

energy can be easily neglected by using adrenaline probe before stealth.

 

You need to see dose of sarcasm in this rotation but outside that its doable.

 

I meant explosive probe, not orbital strike in that rotation.

[Gelich]

Too bad that K.O. is still filling Resolve fully.

[Vallowen]

Too bad that K.O. is still filling Resolve fully.

 

K.O. is..? Jarring Strike?

[Sookster]

I think I'm switching from crit/surge to power/alacrity in my mods.

[Andreasus]

LC and shiv the same damage? Is this true?

[GengisKahn]

Except that after you use HS without JS you will be knocked down, pushed, or whatever and you will be too far to use debilitate, and then you will be kited to death.

 

Also, its not a buff since you can do this today.

Edited January 24, 2012 by GengisKahn

[Arancor]

There's something wrong with the opening in the original post and also with some other openings shown here:

 

(Opponent starts free to move) HS without JS -> DB -> (opponent is no longer free to move) -> BS -> Shiv -> LC / (Opponent is now free to move for part of a GCD) -> FB -> free action.

 

Let me put this in a time line:

0.0s - HS - free to move

1.5s - DB - stunned - 4s remaining

3.0s - BS - stunned - 2.5s remaining

4.5s - Shiv - stunned - 1s remaining

6.0s - LC - free to move for 0.5s already

7.5s - FB - flashed

9s - EP

10.5 - wait for BS to come off CD

12.0 - BS

 

People are basically assuming that DB as a 4 sec stun gives you 3 free globals, but as DB itself triggers a global cooldown it only gives you 2.

 

The point of the initial post seems to be that using DB and FB instead of JS basically gives you 1 additional second of stun and 1 free action. While this is partially true, the rotation has some MAJOR drawbacks:

 

1) Good players WILL use a defensiv CD/CC during the inital 1.5 seconds they are free to move, which puts you at a major disadvantage compared to the "old" opening

 

2) Even bad players that arent that fast in reacting will definitely CC you (most of the time knockback) immediately after DB wears off because they will hammer their button during the stun, which will make your LC the "free action" you use after FB.

 

3) This whole rotation uses 9 GCDS to do 13806 damage (1022 DPS) while the old one did 8646 in 4 GCDS (1441 DPS)

 

Overall the opening is much more clunky compared to the old one. It also puts your two major non-stealth CC abilities on cooldown and gives the target much more opportunities to do something against you or get help from other players.

 

The whole concept (which is also the thing seen as OP) of the old rotation is to have the target DEAD after LC (and maybe an additional EP from range after you got knocked back). I agree that you can use DB to have a quite similar rotation, I don't agree that FB will grant you a free additional attack (it will in somes cases, but often it will not).

 

To be a little more specific, the rotation:

HS-AB-Shiv-BS-LC-EP (10568 damage) would have killed many targets in the old rotation with the major chunk of damage (7101) occuring during the stun period with NO chance to react other than break the stun.

 

Add DB to that and the new rotation does basically the same base damage, using 1 additional GCD, leaving a whole to break the rotation without using the break-CC ability, and sometimes granting you the chance for an extra BS by using FB.

[neurosisxeno]

So I decided to double-check and apply logic to your own math--which btw, is terrible--and tell the actual story. I used all your own numbers (which I doubt are accurate) to prove the point. Here you go;

 

Current Rotation:

HS + AB -> Shiv -> BS + AB -> LC

2434 + 1576 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

Total Damage: 10282

 

There's your first mistake, you dropped one of the damage totals to make it seems like less damage than it really was. When I add them up correctly it's already creeping up on your total damage. Now the post 1.1.1 Numbers of the same rotation;

1947 + 1576 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

Total Damage: 9795

 

Keep in mind this is all pre-mitigation, and with the ArP from AB nerfed, will likely widen the difference. Then there's the fact that the AB DoT is being rolled into the damage of attacks it's coupled with, which makes modelling the DPS for comparisons sake even harder. Oh, and we are Now lets add up your proposed rotation post 1.1.1;

 

HS + AB -> DB -> Shiv -> BS+AB -> LC

1947 + 1576 -> 472 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545

Total Damage: 10267

 

As we can see already, having to throw a DB in just to make up for the lost damage--assuming JS doesn't still fill resolve and make them immune to the stun--is quite a waste of a GCD. If we compare the damage per GCD of the original rotation as it stands (10282 / 4 GCD's) we sit on 2570.5 D/GCD. With the amended version, it drops a hefty 20% to 2053.4 D/GCD (10267 / 5 GCD's). Now, let's compare your "proposed" rotation;

 

HS + AB -> DB -> Shiv -> BS + AB -> LC -> FB -> EP -> BS

1947 + 1576 -> 472 -> 1534 -> 1617 + 1576 -> 1545 -> 0 -> 1922 -> 1617

Total Damage: 13806

 

So, for starters, you are eating substantially more GCD's--8 to be precise. There are a number of anomalies with this that should be mentioned. For starters, you throw FB in there... 1 GCD after refreshing AB's DoT. FB breaks on damage, so odds are this really will do nothing other than waste a GCD and possibly interrupt them at the expense of one of your most powerful CC affects. Then there's the final BS thrown in there, assuming you did everything correctly and strung the moves together, you would get to it 4.5 seconds after your preceding BS, or roughly halfway INTO IT'S CD. I modeled the damage for it just to prove a point, but that BS cannot actually happen since you would have to wait up to 4.5 seconds after placing EP to activate it. Oh, and you'd have to be behind them, which would be nearly impossible since at this point AB has broken FB, EP has gone off, and you still don't have BS off CD... but, let's look at the numbers;

 

13806 / 8 GCD = 1725.75 D/GCD

 

So your rotation does less damage per GCD used. Let's compare Damage Per Energy Cost as I get ready to point out yet another flaw;

 

Current Rotation: HS (17) + AB (13) -> Shiv (15) -> BS (0) + AB (13) -> LC (15)

Total Energy: 73

Damage Per Energy: 140.85

 

Your Rotation: HS (17) + AB (13) -> DB (10) -> Shiv (15) -> BS (0) + AB (13) -> LC (15) -> FB (10) -> EP (20) -> Impossible BS (0)

Total Energy: 113

Damage Per Energy: 122.18

 

So as I mentioned, Energy was a flaw. I'm not sure if you strung all these together you'd be able to fit all the moves in since EP has an extremely high 20 Energy Cost, and you need that extra FB + DB at 10 Energy a piece. So your rotation is worse in terms of D/GCD and D/E, features impossible strings of abilities given CD's and possible Energy Restrictions, and wastes numerous abilities that could be better used elsewhere. It's in no way better.