Yes I have, they've shaved a bit of my burst damage off yes, but it's manageable. Especially considering the fact that Jarring Strike NO LONG FILLS RESOLVE, meaning we can use our opener, then quickly follow it with Debilitate. Doing BOTH, does fill Resolve.

Resolve is reduced on Jarring Strike as well. So you can basically stunlock an opponent between your damage moves. We are now the stunlocking rogues of SWTOR, bring on the Sorc & BH QQ please.

Damage might be reduced, but so is the Resolve. You can now stunlock a person for 5.5 seconds straight between Jarring Strike and Debilitate.

CONFIRMED: Jarring Strike fills the resolve meter halfway, meaning you can open with Acid Blade >> Hidden Strike, then debilitate right away. This DOES give you a full resolve meter after using both tho. Just tested it a couple minutes ago.

LOL have you played a Concealment Op in PVE? I'm out DPSed by my guildy 'Sin in EVERY encounter. Why? Because not a SINGLE boss will let you open from stealth. What's hard to get? A large majority of our WTFPWN damage comes from Hidden Strike, which is literally useless in 95% of the encounters because the Boss can detect you from atleast 2x farther then someone unstealthed. Plus Backstab (which isn't much more damaging then the Sin version) has a 9s cooldown. Bioware -really- didn't think out the Operative at all. The Healing class is buggy and sub-par to the BH and Sorc healers, the Operative version of Lethality is -literally- a gimped version of the Sniper Lethality tree. And now with the Concealment spec, all the damage is frontloaded in Hidden Strike, which is all but useless in PVE, and is about to become even -more- useless. Literally there is -no- reason to bring a Concealment Operative on any serious raid. Every other Melee DPS does the job better, period. But that doesn't even matter since 100% of the Bosses favor Ranged DPS over Melee DPS anyways. Either A) You have a Jugg as your main tank (unlikely) so you get Warrior Buff, or B) You bring ONE Marauder for the Warrior Buff. Seems like every -serious- raid setup nowadays is this 1 Sorc Healer 1 BH Healer 1 Tank (Either Sin or PowerTech if bringing a Marauder. If Not, -maybe- a Jugg) 1 Marauder (Only needed if not using a Jugg because they want the Buff) 4 Ranged DPS (5 if you have a Jugg tanking) Ranged DPS > Melee DPS in -every- endgame encounter, period.

Both Crit rating, and Surge rating have diminishing returns after a certain point. I'm pretty sure Critical Rating is around 35%, I'm not sure what the specific number for Surge is, you'd have to look it up. But basically, after these hard-points, the stat doesn't give the full benefit like it did, and thus, it's smarter to stack power to boost your damage and healing.

Gabe, and -anyone- who thinks Operatives are as useful as the other DPS in PVE is a complete tool. If you haven't done Eternal Council on a concealment Operative, I urge you to try it. You will 1) Be the last person to kill your target 2) Only be able to do so with a massive amount of self-heals and 3) Never be able to use either one of your TRUE damage moves like Acid Blade + Hidden Strike or Acid Blade + Backstab. Anyone who things PVE is an operative's strong suit knows -****- about what they are talking about.

There is one thing that no one has mentioned that an Operative brings to the table in a raid environment. A In-Combat rez however, most of your healers are probably going to be Sorcs which means one of them will have the Rez too. Still is a useful tool to have in the Raid if the healer goes down.

There is diminishing returns on Surge and Crit. It's 35% for Surge and I -believe- something like 175pts for Surge Rating. After that, you don't get the TRUE value of surge and crit and it only adds minimally. Thus it's better to stack Power after you get Crit and Surge that high as it raises your overall damage on everything, and on healing to, to be honest.

LOL minor nerf? You're right, taking off atleast 35-40% of the overall damage of the op is only a minor nerf. Especially when ALL of that damage is frontloaded and we have no sustained DPS. Notice why no one takes Concealment Ops on any -serious- raid? It's because overall, their DPS is a joke, it's only comes from their Stealth Opener. Please, play an Operative and THEN maybe you'll have some credibility on these forums. You're one of the QQers who asked for the nerf right? It shows.

Reminds me of SWG when people were so mad with the Spy because they had the longest range AND they could use stealth WHENEVER outside of 35+M and you'd stay cloaked so long as you stayed 5m+ away from a target.... People whined and whined until SOE pretty much turned the class into a burst melee type. Hopefully with all the "You need to nerf Op" and the "Don't break our class" Bioware will take a 2nd look on what they wanna do with Operative and gives us more than 1 viable PVE spec, and a PVP spec doesn't make people immediately QQ on the forums. IMO... Bioware...Where is my range? I chose this class from the get-go because it was supposed to be ranged AND melee, but my Concealment operative is -solely- Melee. If you wanna nerf the melee burst damage, -fine-, take away Jarring Strike and make it useless too if you must, but give me some ranged or melee sustainable DPS or I'm going to be useless outside of the 1st 2 seconds of a fight.

I meant explosive probe, not orbital strike in that rotation.

Immediately following debilitate wearing off, or possibly after the Backstab. Will have to experiment.

You're right, taking 40% off 5 targets isn't as effective as taking 75% off one *facepalm* ******* And it's not like they ONLY do the AOE either.... They can massacre a single target too I'm talking to you BH and Sorc

Can't do Sleeping dart out of stealth, and can't do Orbital strike IN stealth since Cover OR Crouch throws you out. Can't do this rotation at all. The new rotation will likely be: Acid blade - Hidden Strike - (Crouch) - Debilitate then Explosive Probe (I only wanna be in cover once) - Acid blade followed by Backstab - Shiv - Lacerate - (By now Debilitate stun is up, BUT you have to wait till Acid Blade DOT is off) - Then Flash Bang - Acid Blade - Backstab - Shiv - Lacerate - Debilitate - Rinse Repeat (Note...I'm not factoring in ENERGY costs, just like YOU surely aren't either.) This means a Stim Boost is likely needed after the first Shiv so no Lacerate. The issue I see with the above rotation is this: Everyone is -sad face- about Operatives because they take the control out of your hands as they stab you in the back. So now, instead of doing a huge burst over the 3 seconds you are on the ground, I'm going to do a -slightly- more spread out burst, over TWO Stuns.....Explain to me how this isn't a stunlock that EVERYONE and their mother seems to be complaining our CURRENT build is? *facepalm* Pre 1.1.1 - "Operatives haha you guys need a nerf. You do too much initial burst while I'm flattened Post 1.1.1 - "Wahhh Operatives can stunlock me like a Rogue in WoW. I didn't leave WoW for the same thing from rogue arch-type. Please take away their CC Bioware" Post NEXT Operative nerf - No CC, No Mobility, Squishy, No burst damage, no utility besides being able to HIDE forever, horrible sustained damage.

Well I knew what with all the people crying out the 3s stun on our opener, that yes, we would have some changes made. I -didn't- however, think they'd make a Concealment Op even -less- useable in a PVE environment (Most raids don't want Melee DPS anyways), and hit us with such a heavy-handed nerf. If the patch goes through like the notes say, this is what will happen Either A) Jarring Strike (the knockdown) is still going to give a full resolve bar, meaning no one will spec it (which isn't a huge deal cause 2 pts can be used elsewhere), but Operatives will be damage starved losing the 20% on Acid Blade -and- the 20% on our main damaging move, all while the target just runs around and kites them or B) Jarring Strike will give less than a full resolve bar, in which people are STILL going to come on here and QQ about how they will actually be getting stunlocked. People will still spec Jarring Strike, they will pin you for 1.5Secs, and still do a decent amount of damage (if they Crit 2.5-3.5k or so, atleast in my case), then apply DEBILITATE (I believe it's a 3s Stun), and continue with Acid Blade >> Backstab >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> ect >> ect Basically that initial CC is what allows us to do -any- sort of Burst DPS, If they aren't standing still, we can only do -meager- Sustained DPS on them. So essentially either A) They break the class to the point where it can't do proper DPS because the dmg nerf and they will be right back up after a GCD or B) The class can ACTUALLY stunlock (which people are claiming they can do NOW), and people will come back on the forums and whine more... Conclusion: Now do you see what nerfing classes without proper testing / time to gather SUFFICIENT data will do to this game? My time card will last until March 25th, if Operative is broken post 1.1.1 and follows the path of A) you're going to see -alot- of players who aren't FOTM and have been playing Operative from the beginning unsub/ not renew. If it follows the patch of B) To be honest, it's going to be 10x worse than it is now, because people ARE NOT MAD ABOUT THE DAMAGE WE CAN DO. THEY ARE MAD THAT THEY CAN'T FUNCTION DURING THAT DAMAGE. (( << THIS IS THE PROBLEM)) Trust me, 1.1.1 is not going to fix A THING.

I'm growing tired of trying to prove to the original QQ'ers that this Nerf is over the top. One of two things is going to happen tomorrow if 1.1.1 goes live. Either A) Jarring Strike (the knockdown) is still going to give a full resolve bar, meaning no one will spec it (which isn't a huge deal cause 2 pts can be used elsewhere), but Operatives will be damage starved losing the 20% on Acid Blade -and- the 20% on our main damaging move, all while the target just runs around and kites them or B) Jarring Strike will give less than a full resolve bar, in which people are STILL going to come on here and QQ about how they will actually be getting stunlocked. People will still spec Jarring Strike, they will pin you for 1.5Secs, and still do a decent amount of damage (if they Crit 2.5-3.5k or so, atleast in my case), then apply DEBILITATE (I believe it's a 3s Stun), and continue with Acid Blade >> Backstab >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> ect >> ect Basically that initial CC is what allows us to do -any- sort of Burst DPS, If they aren't standing still, we can only do -meager- Sustained DPS on them. So essentially either A) They break the class to the point where it can't do proper DPS because the dmg nerf and they will be right back up after a GCD or B) The class can ACTUALLY stunlock (which people are claiming they can do NOW), and people will come back on the forums and whine more... Conclusion: Now do you see what nerfing classes without proper testing / time to gather SUFFICIENT data will do to this game? My time card will last until March 25th, if Operative is broken post 1.1.1 and follows the path of A) you're going to see -alot- of players who aren't FOTM and have been playing Operative from the beginning unsub/ not renew. If it follows the patch of B) To be honest, it's going to be 10x worse than it is now, because people ARE NOT MAD ABOUT THE DAMAGE WE CAN DO. THEY ARE MAD THAT THEY CAN'T FUNCTION DURING THAT DAMAGE. (( << THIS IS THE PROBLEM)) Trust me, 1.1.1 is not going to fix A THING.

I'm growing tired of trying to prove to you that this Nerf is over the top. One of two things is going to happen tomorrow if 1.1.1 goes live. Either A) Jarring Strike (the knockdown) is still going to give a full resolve bar, meaning no one will spec it (which isn't a huge deal cause 2 pts can be used elsewhere), but Operatives will be damage starved losing the 20% on Acid Blade -and- the 20% on our main damaging move, all while the target just runs around and kites them or B) Jarring Strike will give less than a full resolve bar, in which people are STILL going to come on here and QQ about how they will actually be getting stunlocked. People will still spec Jarring Strike, they will pin you for 1.5Secs, and still do a decent amount of damage (if they Crit 2.5-3.5k or so, atleast in my case), then apply DEBILITATE (I believe it's a 3s Stun), and continue with Acid Blade >> Backstab >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> ect >> ect Basically that initial CC is what allows us to do -any- sort of Burst DPS, If they aren't standing still, we can only do -meager- Sustained DPS on them. So essentially either A) They break the class to the point where it can't do proper DPS because the dmg nerf and they will be right back up after a GCD or B) The class can ACTUALLY stunlock (which people are claiming they can do NOW), and people will come back on the forums and whine more... Conclusion: Now do you see what nerfing classes without proper testing / time to gather SUFFICIENT data will do to this game? My time card will last until March 25th, if Operative is broken post 1.1.1 and follows the path of A) you're going to see -alot- of players who aren't FOTM and have been playing Operative from the beginning unsub/ not renew. If it follows the patch of B) To be honest, it's going to be 10x worse than it is now, because people ARE NOT MAD ABOUT THE DAMAGE WE CAN DO. THEY ARE MAD THAT THEY CAN'T FUNCTION DURING THAT DAMAGE. (( << THIS IS THE PROBLEM)) Trust me, 1.1.1 is not going to fix A THING.

LOL Cowflab, you must seriously have no life to sit here and keep posting in Operative Nerf threads when you don't even have a 50 Operative whom it ACTUALLY effects. If I'm not mistaken, you don't even -have- an Operative with Hidden Strike or Acid Blade. I'm growing tired of trying to prove to you that this Nerf is over the top. One of two things is going to happen tomorrow if 1.1.1 goes live. Either A) Jarring Strike (the knockdown) is still going to give a full resolve bar, meaning no one will spec it (which isn't a huge deal cause 2 pts can be used elsewhere), but Operatives will be damage starved losing the 20% on Acid Blade -and- the 20% on our main damaging move, all while the target just runs around and kites them or B) Jarring Strike will give less than a full resolve bar, in which people are STILL going to come on here and QQ about how they will actually be getting stunlocked. People will still spec Jarring Strike, they will pin you for 1.5Secs, and still do a decent amount of damage (if they Crit 2.5-3.5k or so, atleast in my case), then apply DEBILITATE (I believe it's a 3s Stun), and continue with Acid Blade >> Backstab >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> Shiv >> Lacerate >> ect >> ect Basically that initial CC is what allows us to do -any- sort of Burst DPS, If they aren't standing still, we can only do -meager- Sustained DPS on them. So essentially either A) They break the class to the point where it can't do proper DPS because the dmg nerf and they will be right back up after a GCD or B) The class can ACTUALLY stunlock (which people are claiming they can do NOW), and people will come back on the forums and whine more... Conclusion: Now do you see what nerfing classes without proper testing / time to gather SUFFICIENT data will do to this game? My time card will last until March 25th, if Operative is broken post 1.1.1 and follows the path of A) you're going to see -alot- of players who aren't FOTM and have been playing Operative from the beginning unsub/ not renew. If it follows the patch of B) To be honest, it's going to be 10x worse than it is now, because people ARE NOT MAD ABOUT THE DAMAGE WE CAN DO. THEY ARE MAD THAT THEY CAN'T FUNCTION DURING THAT DAMAGE. (( << THIS IS THE PROBLEM)) Trust me, 1.1.1 is not going to fix A THING.

My 403 Expertise Operative vs a Naked Juggernaut - Highest Crit? 5.2k and 1.8-2.5k HIDDEN STRIKE was more common. Occasionally a 3.5k crit would drop but these were seldom for me. Watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRtEeMg2YJ4 Same thing with his gear on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1su-tMdKJE Notice the first crit? It's like 1.0k LOL....that's WEAK... The thing about Operative is, when we crit...we crit hard... But when we don't crit at all, we're like a wet noodle, just slapping you in the back for 3% of your health lol. Only thing they need to change is Jarring Strike. Hell remove it for all care so the QQ whiners will stop crying about me killing before they can react (Like they can't use CC break LOL).

2 working days worth of possible data gathering has passed since 1.1 dropped and fixed the buff-stacking and the 50's brackets..... REALLY...2 business days... How much data do you -really- think they collected when I can play -easily- 10+ games and see -maybe- one other Concealment Op besides myself. Anyone who claims this is based off actual MEANINGFUL data is a complete dumb *** who clearly, enjoys the knee jerk reactions of Devs, so long as it doesn't affect them that is. There is -no- way any form of REAL statistical data has been recorded to prove this much of a nerf is needed. Nerf the opening stun? Perhaps....but leave damage where it is or you're breaking the class....period. Just wait till 1.1.1 comes out everyone, then when the forum is full of "This is what we've been reduced to" and you see my operative whacking the enemy for negligible white damage, and weak crits, you'll come around and realize this was a knee-jerk nerf, that only further UNBALANCES the game.

Sorcs and BHs you mean, -sometimes- a warrior or an Assassin maybe. But usually it's Sorcs and Bounty Hunters. As for Operative (Not IA - as they can be a sniper too.... duh) I'm -usually- the only one in a game, but if there is another, they are usually a healer anyways.

This would be a -lot- easier if there was character transfer setup on PTR, then I could actually test these things.

I don't even see -how- you can claim these aren't class-breaking to the Conc. Op. 4k off is a signifigant problem for a class that only puts out about 9-10k (at the top of the level with Crits and good situation) in 6 seconds. After that initial burst.... we are -starved- for DPS. And remember, this is ideal situations we're talking about. It's not that I can't handle a nerf, or I can't handle a "L2P" issue like balancing and such. But it's when you give me only 1 Viable PVP spec if I wanna do any real DPS, and then, instead of balancing it, and coming up with something that will work for everyone, you take away the -only- thing I'm capable of PVP. You say "You'll just have to adjust" but unless BW adds -some- sort of buff to Lethality/Medic, or sustained DPS, there is NO way to adjust. No other class is a -one- trick pony. If you take away the one-trick, all you are left with is a pony..... I'd rather not be a pony... I'd much rather be excellent at -one- thing, and decent at others, like most of the classes, than be the class that seems OP to everyone in PVP because of our KNOCKDOWN. To be honest, I could handle the entire changes to Op (All 3) if only they would give me -some- mobility like a gap-closer, and possibly a knockback as well. Hell, kill my melee abilities a bit more while you're at it, and giving me a bit better usefulness for ranged, you know....The reason I picked up IA in the first place, the mix of Melee and Ranged? Point is Cowflab, if you take away the -only- thing we can do in PVP right now, what are we supposed to do lol. I have 0 meaningful AOE besides maybe Orbital Strike but come on, if you stand in the reticle you deserve to take a 4.5k Pounding (that's with the extra sec from Tech "set bonus") not to mention the serious delay on how long it takes for the first shot to start coming in. I'm getting off topic, but yah, you can't design a class spec around -one- thing and one thing only, then nerf that thing to hell in a handbasket and expect that class to be viable for DPS anymore. It's just not going to happen.

9k-10k Possible WITH successful crits in 6 seconds, but barely. 13k in 6 seconds - Not possible without gear difference or buff stacking 21-23k over a perfectly executed rotation in 12 seconds - What planet are you living on LOL. Our sustained DPS is nothing, and unless we blow our 2 min cooldown to restealth, our only -real- DPS is backstab, where I had to stand -behind- you, and again, it does -maybe 2.5-3.5k on a 9 second cooldown, meaning it's only going to come up again ONCE during a 12 second rotation. You're right, that 9-10k does come quick, and hits like a train since you're on the ground (IMO the only thing that needs nerfed), but 21-23k in 12 seconds doesn't happen, not when Shiv hits for like 1.5k (ON A high crit) and Lacerate for 2.5k (ON A high crit) See the problem -REALLY- is that you're doing all this number crunchering based on us Critting, trust me, it doesn't happen -that- often, and there's plenty of times I open up on a Sorc/Assassin (Light armor) with Hidden Strike, Followed by Corrosive Dart, Backstab (Obviously Acid blading before HS and BS), then Shiv, then Lacerate, and they only have -maybe- 2.5-3.5k missing. Trust me, when that happens, you better PRAY your Cloaking screen is up, or you are just -****ed- out in the open. Again, the problem isn't with the Classes DPS, the problem is with the opener. So Leave Acid Blade out of it one. Two, if you're going to take away the Burst, give us a -slight- boost to shiv maybe (not much, maybe 10-15%) and give us -some- form of a gap closer. You're feelings would be 100% different if you played an Op. You'd like be like me, willing to admit that the 3s stun in the opener is over the top, but you'd clearly agree that this "Nerf" is -quite- heavy-handed and a bit....brash...to say the least.