A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[Raice]

As far as I'm concerned. I think we have pretty much discussed the KO Stun situation every way we can discuss it. There is really nothing anyone can say that can argue that a 1.5s Stun is justifiable. Some people have brought up that the animation bug adds a 1s timer on KO. This is actually false. The one second animation is part of the 1.5s - it is not in addition to the 1.5s.

 

Moreover, there is some discussion that Bioware would reduce the Resolve of KO if they reduced the duration to 1.5s. "They would have to." Yes, and then we would have to apply a secondary Stun (Dirty Kick) that will equal a total of 6.5s. 6.5s is essentially an average stun duration that most all classes can perform in one Stun, and does not maximize the Resolve. With this nerf, we will achieve this with 2 Stuns and will fill their Resolve. Since they wouldn't use their Escape on the 1.5s KO Stun (based on the GCD), then they would save it for Dirty Kick. Now, we are locked out of stunning them again, we used 2 Stuns, and they have been afforded an Escape for both of them.

 

I think we can all agree that this is beyond ridiculous.

 

This is not a solution. You cannot reduce the 3s Stun on KO - you cannot do it without royally screwing us - and I and others on this thread have gone into great detail why you cannot. Leave the Stun argument alone - you cannot justify a 1.5s Stun on any Class. I don't care how much Resolve it puts on the Target - a 1.5s Stun is as useful as no Stun at all.

 

I'll report back later when I have more time. I have a 3hr radio shift coming up! Peace, my brotha's and sista's!

 

 

 

____________

 

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, I appreciate all of your feedback on this. There have been some good points brought up and some not so good points. I am sorry that I simply don't have the time to respond to every single one of them.

 

Be that as it may, the discussion is veering off into the argument that "We don't need a nerf!" I 100% agree with this sentiment. However, the fact still remains that we are getting a nerf one way or another. The focus of this thread is to discuss a better solution. We are getting nerfed - we have to accept that. We have to move on. Try to refocus on discussing the facts of the class.

 

If you do not know anything about the class, and you try to talk about this issue on the sly by making stuff up... we will know that you don't know what you are talking about. We play this class a lot more than you. You cannot know the intimate workings of a class, based on the receiving end, just as we cannot know the intimate workings of any other class based on the receiving end. We understand it better by virtue of that fact. We have first hand experience of what it can actually do, why it does it, and more importantly, what it cannot do. If you need a place to express your negative experience with what Scrapper/Concealment has done to you in a WZ or Open PvP - this is not the thread you are looking for to vent. Go make your own. We are here to discuss why the Scrapper/Concealment behaves the way it does, and to find a better solution than the current proposed nerf in 1.11.

 

Some of us are overjoyed beyond anything that Scrapper/Concealment are being "shut down", and we aren't considering the overall damage that is being done to the class. This is fine for you to argue if this is what you really think, but please be aware that I and many others can smell a biased argument a mile away. You really aren't contributing to this thread if all you have to say is, "Loser! Now you gotta play with skill,, n00b!" As far as I'm concerned, these are trolling comments, and I'll just report you - I won't even respond. I implore the rest of the community who is serious about this issue to do the same. We do not need these posts adding animosity and anger confusion in our otherwise, intelligent and friendly debates and discussions.

 

The best way to not take this personally is to address the Class - not the players playing them. You should not be mad at me because my class behaves abnormally. I did not design the class. I just play it. Attacking me or anyone else on a personal level is completely uncalled for. You will be reported for doing so.

 

Thank you for your comments!

Edited January 24, 2012 by Raice

[Diomades]

This is easily one of the most well thought out arguments on the forum, bravo. This is actually something I was discussing with friends - that they should halve the critical damage multiplayer and make it apply to all attacks, not just shotgun attacks. It's nice to know somebody else sees the logic in that.

 

I honestly had not thought about the 1.5 second K.O. being the length of a GCD, though. Yeah, I don't see myself speccing into that on my scrapper anymore.

[CaptainInsano]

All I know is what I see first hand... I die before the stun wears off when attacked. That is the root issue here... It is not PvP when you get to beat me into the ground and I can't so ANYTHING at all to stop it.

 

To me it looks like their nerf was well thought out and should bring you in balance... you will still be able to take 40% of my life before I stand up but now atleast I can counter your abilities and actually have a shot at killing you.

 

I had actually hoped BW would have done like Blizzard and over did the nerf on you so I could just kill all the ops who ran around uncontested the last few weeks for fun and revenge... but I will live... and guess what... so will you.

 

You die before the stun wears off? What do you have 10k hp?

[Equitas_Vindex]

Glad my heavy armor is going to start meaning something...

 

I thought I was running around in a loin cloth and not my Champ set. (Though, that Champ set does have a loin cloth...hmm...)

 

As someone who has a Combat Medic and working on a Scrapper, I totally agree with these changes.

 

Besides, there are a lot of balances that occur off on the side by giving Scraps/Opers this nerf. My heavy armor on my Combat Medic is supposed to balance my healing for survivability versus the Sage's high healing but low survivability. IAs were pretty much neutering that notion with their armor bypass.

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to shed any tears. And I can tell you right now who's going to be next: Sages and Inquisitors.

[Raice]

Updated the OP with some new information (it's at the bottom.) Give it a "look-see". I think you guys will like it.

 

Thanks for all your comments, guys!

[Superfreack]

Actually i did. Writing wall of text doesn't automatically make content of the text more valuable. You could have spared a lot of time by just writing two symbols - "qq".

 

BAHAHAHA /thumbs up.

 

The only thing i agree with the OP about is that the nerf will do more harm to the game than good in terms of PVE players.

 

The smuggler/Imp Agent are already the least played class of the 4 by far. This nerf will only decrease that population number.

[Raice]

BAHAHAHA /thumbs up.

 

The only thing i agree with the OP about is that the nerf will do more harm to the game than good in terms of PVE players.

 

The smuggler/Imp Agent are already the least played class of the 4 by far. This nerf will only decrease that population number.

 

So you agree with the point I made about this Nerf doing more harm than good, but disagree with all the evidence I provided that proves WHY it is doing more harm than good? You realize how incredibly ridiculous that is, right?

 

Do you even know why this Nerf will decrease the population of these Classes? I'd love to hear your reasons. You didn't read any of what I wrote either, did you?

Edited January 24, 2012 by Raice

[Ghingis]

Well, reduce the crit damage then if thats what you want, but I am telling you that out of your stealth burst you will be even more useless then you are now, and people will be crying even more, since you will not be able to kill skilled people effectively enough at all without having that burst, regardless of what CC you might have.

[Raice]

Well, reduce the crit damage then if thats what you want, but I am telling you that out of your stealth burst you will be even more useless then you are now, and people will be crying even more, since you will not be able to kill skilled people effectively enough at all without having that burst, regardless of what CC you might have.

 

Look... the fact still remains, this nerf is entirely unnecessary to begin with. We're being nerfed because people complained - not because we needed it. We're going to be boned either way.

 

I would rather have reduced Crit Damage that can be made up with Gear, Relics, and Biochem than a broken Tree that is pointless to invest more than 27 points in. The odds are on my side with reduced Crit Damage. At least that way I can WORK.

 

What I suggest is by FAR the lesser of two evils.

[Ghingis]

Look... the fact still remains, this nerf is entirely unnecessary to begin with. We're being nerfed because people complained - not because we needed it. We're going to be boned either way.

 

Thats the biggest load of ******** I've heared all day. You got nerfed because your class was ridicilously overpowered, because you could get anyone below the point of recovery simply be opening and pressing 123, whilst the person could not even react to this without having a trinket up.

 

Dont tell me you actually think that Operatives were fine before the nerf?

 

I would rather have reduced Crit Damage that can be made up with Gear, Relics, and Biochem than a broken Tree that is pointless to invest more than 27 points in. The odds are on my side with reduced Crit Damage. At least that way I can WORK.

 

What I suggest is by FAR the lesser of two evils.

 

I really do think people just overrate this nerf too a much bigger thing then it is. You losing one GCD in an opener will hardly ever change the outcome of a fight, especially not if you have teammates around you that will be helping you out. Your opening damage will still be incredibly strong, its just the fact that now people will get a change to react before they die.

 

You will still beat 99% of the people who was whining before the patch because they still have no clue what to do, its just that this change will allow better players to react to what is going on, and so on having a chance to fight, instead of being stuck in something that would end up killing them. Reducing your crit damage would just make you useless overall apart from CC, but then again I would rather bring an Assassin then an Operative if they reduce your crit damage, since they offer me more things then you do, even with all your CC.

 

 

Just do NOT come here and tell me that Operatives were fine before the nerf, because they sure as fck wasnt.

[AidenPryde]

A better solution would have been to nerf the critical damage and then buff the class(es) survivability.

 

I think the problem was that people were getting killed within the first 4 second stun.

[staysa]

Every kid currently getting roflstomped by Operatives will still get roflstomper by Operatives. All the currently planned nerf is doing is:

 

1) making your already hard/impossible fights worse

2) pve nerf for no reason

 

That is why the nerf is stupid. I've made people cry and cry in general chat but you know what? I still killed them fatfingering my interrupt to break stealth while trying to hit acid blade > hidden strike

[Tristita]

I agree with the most reasonable people in this thread. I don't understand operatives and I shouldn't have to in order to know Dying in the duration of one stun (as a 21,000 hp TANK assassin with 400 expertise) or losing 80% of my health in that one stun is WRONG from a melee class. If that is not the case any longer, than I am happy.

[staysa]

I agree with the most reasonable people in this thread. I don't understand operatives and I shouldn't have to in order to know Dying in the duration of one stun (as a 21,000 hp TANK assassin with 400 expertise) or losing 80% of my health in that one stun is WRONG from a melee class. If that is not the case any longer, than I am happy.

 

With 440 expertise (your level of gear) I can do roughly 17k dmg opener to a 0 expertise light armor target if I have the expertise buff and burn vanish for a second ambush. This is assuming everything crits, including dot tics.

 

I'm going to assume you met a fully geared (600expertise stim/adrenal abusing whore) operative and that you deer-in-headlights like most people when attacked by such. The amount of people who just stand there after hidden strike knockdown is off is amazing.

 

 

Also, would you prefer a ranged class were doing this to you?

[savionen]

I think half the problem right now is that anything aside from weapon damage is NOT mitigated by shields or defenses.

 

So even if a tank has 18-22k health they still get creamed by an Operative because of the armor penetration.

 

I honestly don't think it's a big deal if Operatives can kill a lone healer in 6 seconds, but cutting through a tank is ridiculous.

[Raice]

Thats the biggest load of ******** I've heared all day. You got nerfed because your class was ridicilously overpowered, because you could get anyone below the point of recovery simply be opening and pressing 123, whilst the person could not even react to this without having a trinket up.

 

Dont tell me you actually think that Operatives were fine before the nerf?

 

 

 

I really do think people just overrate this nerf too a much bigger thing then it is. You losing one GCD in an opener will hardly ever change the outcome of a fight, especially not if you have teammates around you that will be helping you out. Your opening damage will still be incredibly strong, its just the fact that now people will get a change to react before they die.

 

You will still beat 99% of the people who was whining before the patch because they still have no clue what to do, its just that this change will allow better players to react to what is going on, and so on having a chance to fight, instead of being stuck in something that would end up killing them. Reducing your crit damage would just make you useless overall apart from CC, but then again I would rather bring an Assassin then an Operative if they reduce your crit damage, since they offer me more things then you do, even with all your CC.

 

 

Just do NOT come here and tell me that Operatives were fine before the nerf, because they sure as fck wasnt.

 

I literally went over all of this in my OP. You didn't read it. If you did, then you obviously didn't understand it, since you don't play the class - which is typical. I'm not going to rewrite it. It makes perfect sense how I have explained the entire situation.

 

I never said we weren't ridiculous. I said we didn't need a nerf. For some reason, you think those two sentences mean the same thing. They don't.

 

You can be upset if you want - but you are not arguing a single valid point my post hasn't already covered and 100% proven false.

 

 

EDIT::

 

You know what - I misjudged this post. I initially ignored it because you weren't saying anything new. But then I went back thinking, "No... it's not right of me to not read his post, and I expect him to read mine."

 

So I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and decided to do unto you as I would have you do unto me.

 

I am literally floored at the amount of dumb in what you wrote. Holy crap - where do I begin?

 

 

"You losing one GCD in an opener will hardly ever change the outcome of a fight" - I COMPLETELY Agree! And since that 1 measly old GCD isn't going to change anything... then it didn't need to be NERFED! Did you see the part where I said the nerf actually REDUCED YOUR Resolve Immunity? You should be against this nerf on principle of the fact that its making YOU weaker!

 

"...especially not if you have teammates around you that will be helping you out." - You got this right too, friend! The best part is... YOUR TEAM CAN HELP YOU BEAT ME JUST THE SAME! MAN! We're making some good ground, here people!

 

"Your opening damage will still be incredibly strong..." - MAN! It's like you understand this perfectly! You're right... my opening damage will be ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME! Which means this nerf is POINTLESS!

 

"...its just the fact that now people will get a change to react before they die." - HOO-HOOOO! Who's side are you on, again? I tell ya... at least you get to say "HI!" before you die. They really should rethink this nerf, don't you think?

 

 

I can't go on, man. I don't know why I bothered writing this thing when you did all the work for us!

 

Thank you for your comments!

Edited January 24, 2012 by Raice

[Equitas_Vindex]

"...its just the fact that now people will get a change to react before they die." - HOO-HOOOO! Who's side are you on, again? I tell ya... at least you get to say "HI!" before you die. They really should rethink this nerf, don't you think?

 

Really?

 

Then I think you all should be nerfed again in Round 2.

[Empha]

Really?

 

Then I think you all should be nerfed again in Round 2.

 

I just love this thread xD

[Drakks]

Welcome to how every other class plays. Your exclusive VIP rights for killing peoplep before they can react are over - now you have to actually learn to pvp.

 

On a topic - acid blade was nerfed EXACTLY BECAUSE you arent supposed to kill heavy armored targets withing seconds, in no circumstances. Stealth kill sorcerers, dps sins, other operatives, snipers whatever from ambush and escape - fine. Going head to head wtih juggernaut and killing him in short time - nope, thats not your role.

 

You still get a superb damage - dont make it sound like if you get nerfed into the ground. Its just that now heavy armor works for you as intended - as heavy armor and not another looking version of cloth, and you dont get to safely dps people over 4.5 second (cut the 1.5 sec ********, i dont think even you believe it) than vanish and repeat.

 

This.

 

Ops want to pretend that heavy armor, or armor at all, means nothing -- while the rest of us all have to play against it.

 

The OP has a long writeup that was long winded, short on fact, and in the end says the nerf went to far.. even though they have no actual data to support that.

[Raice]

This.

 

Ops want to pretend that heavy armor, or armor at all, means nothing -- while the rest of us all have to play against it.

 

The OP has a long writeup that was long winded, short on fact, and in the end says the nerf went to far.. even though they have no actual data to support that.

 

No. I do not want to pretend Heavy Armor means nothing. I want to point out that it should mean something, but should not mean, that enforcing it's meaning should mean I can do nothing to it to it.

 

Does Heavy Armor do anything against a Sorcerer? No. It does absolutely nothing. Why? Because their (main) attacks bypass ALL armor. Yet you don't hear anyone complaining about that.

 

Heavy Armor provides protection against physical damage, which is what the Smuggler/Op generates. Actually it's tech... but whatever - it protects against kinetic/tech attacks. The point is, that their armor IS actually working. The problem is we produce so much damage, that enough damage can get through the filter. If you reduce the damage, then this works. If you reduce our ability to penetrate the armor, then you've essentially disallowed us to work against Heavy Armor, while still not addressing the fact that people who do NOT wear Heavy Armor, are still receiving the brunt of the damage that we produce... that was never nerfed.

 

So to counter-that... they break another one of our Top Tier abilities - which breaks more than just that ability. It breaks our ability to stun AT ALL.

 

I don't know why people cannot see this. I'm not asking them to do NOTHING. I'm asking them to fix the actual problem.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Raice

[Ghingis]

You can be upset if you want - but you are not arguing a single valid point my post hasn't already covered and 100% proven false.

 

So you have covered the point where Operatives get people beyond the point of recovery as soon as they get to open on someone?

 

I must have missed the part.

 

And I also would like to see your logic behind this not needing a change.

 

Edit: I'll take back what I said before aswell, only seen one person so far that understand how overpowered your class is, that actually plays it. You're not this person im afraid, you are just another standard Operative who doesnt want to get nerfed, because actually giving people a fighting chance would be dumb, right?

Edited January 25, 2012 by Ghingis

[Bejita]

I like how OPs think they are the only ones who use good gear and use biochem adrenals when all the other classes do aswell and reach no where near the burst and dps of a OP, the time has come for nerfs and the testing has been done by bioware themselves, time to reroll or learn your class finally no more faceroll

[Skaarrj]

The nerfs were needed. You were doing too much damage to just about everyone.

[ndruo]

I'm shocked at the large number of people who aren't reading. OP: Put this following paragraph of yours in a TL;DR at the top. It will make things instantly clearer, and the lazy and opinionated will get the point within the bounds of their 10 second attention span. Don't bury the main idea in the middle. Put it up front in gigantic letters where it'll be seen.

 

What is the real problem?

 

<skip skip skip>

 

Critical Damage.

 

We do too much of it in too short of a time. If you have read this far, you will see that you cannot nerf the time in which it takes us to produce our Critical Damage, because it will destroy the functionality of the Tree. What's left? Addressing the Critical Damage.

 

Nerf Underdog/Meticulous Blades instead/

 

I agree. The fact that you guys can knock people down is fine, I expect that. I expect your class to have robust CC (though your snaring AOE physic is pretty frustrating). It's the damage. As a healer, when I see someone drop in 3 global cooldowns, I scream OP. I don't scream OP because there's a 5 second stun, I don't scream OP that bleeds are too strong, I scream OP because you took them down in three globals.

 

You've got a good way of fixing that - nerfing the buff to the critical damage will accomplish exactly what everyone is looking for, while preserving the feel of that talent tree. It's an elegant solution, and a very easy "knob" to turn for balancing purposes.

 

Preserve the 5 second stun. That's a level of team utility that's something that I love, and I'm not even the DPS who should be taking advantage of it. Keep your armor pen - you should be able to hit a heavy armor class for SOMETHING instead of feeling like you have a peashooter instead of a real weapon.

 

But don't kill my soldiers in three globals. That's bullsh*t.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ndruo

[Lushbits]

Here's the real reason for this nerf:

 

Bioware wants more time to fix the stuff in the game that is broken. There are a few things mind you. Everything from PvP to PvE has major issues in one way or another. Bugs, loot system not working, no UI customizations. They need to keep the subscribers happy enough to stay until the next major patch.

 

So, how to do this? You cater to the masses. Right now there is a HUGE majority of the players rolling Sorcerers. The Ops nerf at this time, is only to keep them happy enough to keep paying, until the game is fixed. I think we will see a buff again, later on. When balance is the real issue.

 

Think about it:

1. The adrenal/buff stacking was the major issue. Why the numbers were so big. That is fixed.
   
2. I've read stories of 450 exp tanks getting taken down in 2 seconds. Just not real - NOT without other people shooting/damaging that player too. But the ops (right there behind him) gets the "blame". No combat log - so no proof that there were other nukers as well.
   
3. IF Bioware did this for balance purposes; they would have fixed the brackets (done) and the adrenals (done) and tried it out like that first for a few weeks. But this is only to cater to the masses. No balance here, only greed.
   

 

I agree, some sort of adjustment was necessary. The dmg IS a tad high; but this nerf is a total knee-jerk just to please the masses. Like I've said so many times on this forum: People that are getting nuked down while stunned by the ops are getting nuked by a whole friggin team. Ops gets the blame for being the one stunning and surprising with that nasty stealth. Happens in every mmo. Usually the developer knows this and handles it well. Mythic doesn't; as seen with Warhammer too.

 

Need to keep people playing?

 

5% Ops

60% Sorcs

Screw the Ops!

 

Oh yeah, the PTR's; The nerf is there now for testing. So feel free to Start a new character - LEVEL IT TO 50 - Get PvP gear from the ridiculous bags - and try it for yourselves! LOL Mythic - Maybe make a character copy function for your "so called PTR"?

Edited January 25, 2012 by Lushbits