A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[Kalantris]

Omgeezers. I don't get you. I don't get you OP. I don't get the rest of you, crying for nerf. How can you even begin to analyze the balance before glitches, bugs, latency spikes, ability delays and animation screw ups are turning all the balance to crap?

 

What do I care about scoundrels/ops when I have my CC removing skill up? I do, because it requires 2,5s to activate due to ability delays. Would I care if it didn't? No, I wouldn't.

 

What do I care about insane marauder burst? I do, because no matter how far away I run the game still thinks I'm in melee range with them. Would I care if it didn't? No, I wouldn't.

 

What do I care about lightning damage of a sorc? I do, because it keeps frying me after I los them and I have to los them for 2s+ to stop it most of the time (so if I run behind a pillar it doesn't break the channel, because I reappear before the stupid game even recognizes the fact, that I hid somewhere).

 

Glitches fixes -> Delay fixes -> Animation fixes -> Balancing fixes.

 

Not the way around, as it simply doesn't work.

 

Regards,

Kalantris

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kalantris

[Magnesium]

I think the reaction from people was expected on this issue, but enough PvPers know that what the Operative/Scoundrel could do was more than should have been intended and something had to be done, when this patch does hit live it will show us quickly if it was too much or just enough, I suspect it will be just fine.

[Detharin]

Theres to many people here talking that not even tried to play a smugler/operative !!!

 

We do not need to, we just need to be on the receiving end of one in PVP. If you have done either then it was fairly obvious a nerf was coming. If you have either played a op/smug or been on the receiving end of one and it was not obvious that a nerf was incoming there is really no point in offering up suggestions on what "should be done" for the very same reason no one asks blind people which shade of blue would look best in their living room.

[Thankyjack]

All I know is what I see first hand... I die before the stun wears off when attacked. That is the root issue here... It is not PvP when you get to beat me into the ground and I can't so ANYTHING at all to stop it.

 

To me it looks like their nerf was well thought out and should bring you in balance... you will still be able to take 40% of my life before I stand up but now atleast I can counter your abilities and actually have a shot at killing you.

 

I had actually hoped BW would have done like Blizzard and over did the nerf on you so I could just kill all the ops who ran around uncontested the last few weeks for fun and revenge... but I will live... and guess what... so will you.

 

Your tone suggests reason, so I will respond in kind.

 

An OP gets the opener on my sorc, knocks me down for one gcd and, when it's over, I have 60% of my life and no way to be cced again. In this situation, I would knock the OP back, apply my slow to counter the op slow, force zoom away (applying my dot on the way) and destroy the OP from range. With 60% of my life left, the op would have no chance whatsoever.

 

I play a sorc, not an op. I can tell you that they destroyed me if they got the opener pre-nerf and I didn't have my trinket. If they did not get the opener, or I had my trinket, then they were easy kills every time. Quite frankly, I thought it made sense Berle the nerf. Now, ops are just scoreboard fodder.

[kckkryptonite]

How would you know Hidden Strike is ridiculous? It's beyond obvious you've never even been attacked by an op/scoundrel.

 

No, it's beyond obvious you're illiterate. Re-read my post.

[Thankyjack]

One last point, KorwinofAmber, you really have no idea. Ops without the opening burst are worthless, easy kills for any sorcerer. They are not "still one of the best class.". They suck. You should kill them 100% of the time now, unless they get you when your health is very low (in which case it doesn't matter who gets you and you would still stand a better chance with an op than anyone else).

 

If you are still having issues with them, then it isn't the class it's you.

 

No way they do anything to any vanguard/pt who is semi conscious.

[wixxkruppel]

Hidden Strike is ridiculous: a 3s knockdown (UNESCAPABLE)

 

Doesn't leave much room for interpretation.

Edited January 23, 2012 by wixxkruppel

[KamikazeBrAh]

LOL at all the little cry baby newbs.. "you won't be able to one shot us anymore!! HAHAHA sucks to be you operatives, now you have to learn to PvP!" Pfft whatever, nerf us, I'll still **** you newbs, you cry babies are just going to find another class to whine and cry about because you are too stupid to realize it isn't the game balance, it is your lack of skill. Operatives and Smugglers are squishy as hell and are mean't to explode out of stealth, it is the only chance we have of contributing in a fight. Not our faults you newbs can't play, I've been wrecked by plenty of GOOD players that know how to play their classes, but too bad the majority of tards in this game are terrible and expect the game to do all of the work for them. You babies would be whining if there was only ONE class in this game I bet. Edited January 23, 2012 by KamikazeBrAh

[Lykurgus]

One last point, KorwinofAmber, you really have no idea. Ops without the opening burst are worthless, easy kills for any sorcerer. They are not "still one of the best class.". They suck. You should kill them 100% of the time now, unless they get you when your health is very low (in which case it doesn't matter who gets you and you would still stand a better chance with an op than anyone else).

 

That is the whole point mate. People just want scoreboard fodder.

 

If this patch goes live thats all concealment spec will become.

[Alexdaphnis]

Great post!

 

Now i think op/scoundrel gonna be nerfed becuse of very simple explanation...they losing subscribers at very fast rate and they choose this becuse was the easiest solution for them , most of servers are light/standard and offer blood for cry babies instead of fixing real problems

Edited January 23, 2012 by Alexdaphnis

[carbocat]

bump ,

 

good thread, some god points there, and to the other guy: fix delay/glitches/ etc before balance couldnt agrre more.

 

Bioware just **** this game. So hard nerf when game only been out for 1 months, seen it before, and the game will fail.

[HollowVamp]

whats the matter, unsatisfied you actually have to work for a kill now? like every other class does..

[wixxkruppel]

whats the matter, unsatisfied you actually have to work for a kill now? like every other class does..

 

http://i.qkme.me/3k8g.jpg

[big_aug]

I resubscribed to respec to Lethality.

 

It's only a matter of time before that gets nerfed too. I don't even know how to properly use it yet (been 1 day), and I still absolutely destroy people 1v1. Out of stealth burst has the potential to be RIDICULOUS. Add to that a nice stealth opening sequence, and you have all the necessary components for forum whiners to cry nerf.

 

So in essence, if you nerf Concealment, you also nerf Lethality. Lots more people will try it, lots more people will start destroying, and lots more poeple will whine.

[Toothsome]

lol this nerf would be more then fine, if they reduced the energy on quickshot, and actually made it like a quickshot, the animation is just way to slow on quickshot, if it stays, it should be renamed to weak asss slow shot.

[wixxkruppel]

I resubscribed to respec to Lethality.

 

Out of stealth burst has the potential to be RIDICULOUS.

 

Out of stealth burst with lethality is pathetic (compared to even nerfed concealment).

 

Unless you call using 5 abilities (7.5 seconds in GCD alone, never mind ability delay or animations) before even being able to use your main dps ability at max strength as OUT OF STEALTH (which it certainly is not).

Edited January 23, 2012 by wixxkruppel

[big_aug]

Out of stealth burst with lethality is pathetic (compared to even nerfed concealment).

 

Unless you call using 5 abilities before even being able to use your main dps ability as OUT OF STEALTH (which it certainly is not).

 

Here's what I've been doing:

 

Hidden Strike - 2-3k

Backstab - 2-3K

Weaking Blast - 1K

Corrosive Dart

Corrosive Grenade

Shiv

Cull

Overload Shot

Backstab

Shiv

Cull

 

When you have two stacks of TA + 2 Dots on them, thats a lot of damage in a short period of time. You don't need stealth for that either:

 

Corrosive Dart

Corrosive Grenade

Shiv

Weakening Blast

Cull

Shiv

Cull

 

Something like that. I don't even bother finishing people soemtimes because the DoT's usually get them. So sometimes I just run through the sequence on various players and move on and let them die or let someone else finish them.

 

It's not hard to hit 300K dmg in the 50's bracket. It's easier than it was when I was concealment. I've noticed I can take people from 100% HP to dead pretty fast without stealth.

 

Maybe burst isn't the right word, but people will soon cry about this spec as well.

Edited January 23, 2012 by big_aug

[MrHotter]

Too many words to cry 'dude, please don't nerf me!'

 

I play an operative, and I can see why people hate to play against them. I pick a target, kill it, and then move on and do the same for another target.

 

The 'nerfs' will not change that much, because it just means I may need to hit the guy one or two more times before he's dead. He may get a chance to get up before he's dead, but unless I don't know the basic skill needed to play a melee DPS, he's not getting away.

 

The reason I can tell that the operative is too powerfull is because it's not the only class I play. If you try another single target burst class and end up dead while your target is still alive more times than you care to remember you can see why we could use the nerf.

[Torcer]

OPs were overpowered and needed a Nerf. Everyone knew this - I knew it, you knew it, even my cat knew it. No class should be able appear out of thin air, stun for 3 seconds so that you so that you can’t respond, and burn a Tank down to 20% health like it does to a Glass Cannon class, yet OPs could. Now, you’ll actually need to think tactically about your targets, instead of choosing anyone and hitting your “I WIN” button. You OPs told everyone who had to deal with your overpowered mechanics to “Learn2Play,” so now we’re tossing it right back in your face.

 

BW pretty clearly did not intend OPs to be so overpowered, since it trivializes other class roles. I can’t tell you how many WZs I played yesterday that were combinations of Sorcs and OPs and no other class. People gravitate towards classes with mechanics advantages and really any argument ignores what’s actually happening in the game is probably wrong.

 

The only possible argument I can see against this Nerf is how much CC there is in this game and how messed up Resolve is. Being face planted for 3 seconds would not be as bad if it’s almost inevitable that your CC Break is on a 2 minute cool down. One CC break combined with a bajillion stuns is an unbalanced system. Still, OPs gladly took advantage of this system, and would continue to do so w/o a nerf.

[Ghingis]

I play a Scoundrel Sawbones. A healer.

 

I'm one of the main targets for IA's. The nice green cones of *I'm a healer, kill me* are like a magnet to them. Do I feel they should be nerf'd? Nope. They are fine atm IMO. They do exactly what the class is supposed to do.

 

If your being killed to a single Conc / Scrapper in the duration of the 3s Knockdown as many seem to claim, all I can say is wear your gear and stop putting it on your companions. I've NEVER been killed by a solo IA in the duration of thier 3s knockdown. Ever. Period.

 

Once I get up I have the tools to escape them / live long enough for help to peel them off me. The full resolve bar means they cant stop me as I CC them in return and flee. Sure if all my CC's are on CD and there is no help around I'm pretty boned. It'll take them awhile to kill me tho, I don't just fold unless the stars align for them (All my CD'd are down and all thier's are up) in which case GG I'll die fast .. but NEVER in the 3s or 4-6s most people seem to taut.

 

Now crying because an IA knocked you down and 4 other members of thier team pounded you is dumb. Crying because 2 IA's jumped you and near instantly killed you is dumb. That's called working together, try it sometime. When there are two IA's working together in a game as a healer I ask for a guard and stay close to the tank / other people. In PuGs it can be annoying if no one will guard you, or your team mates get so tunnel visioned on that sorc that none peel the IA off your ***. That's not a class issue tho, that's a playing with ******* issue.

 

Personally I think, for me personally, this *nerf* will make IA's more of an issue to me. Thier knockdown wont fill my resolve bar so instead of a 3s stun and ~50% health loss I am gonna get a 1.5s followed by a 3s stun and maby 50% health loss. For me being unable to control my character for longer is more of an issue than the damage I take. Sure now we'll take 50% loss in more time ... but it'll still be 50% loss just longer I cant do anything about it. More irritating for me.

 

My own opinion. They are fine. Learn to counter them. Don't cry when one + 2 of thier team or 2 of them gank you. Its exactly the same with any other class. My server sith guilds run 4-sorc pre-mades. 4 sorc's on vent = instant death. Yet i dont cry *nerf sorc's* because its not the sorc thats killing me, its the team work on vent that's killing me. The counter? Grab some friends and unleash some payback.

 

I havent been killed in the duration of the knockback either, what I have done though, is coming out of the knockback with 3% hp left, so I can then finally start to fight back... ?

 

They are doing what their class is supposed to do, although they are doing it way too good, and way too easily. I am supposed to go in and ram people down, but would it be fair if i went in and killed everyone in a couple of globals? No.

 

Its pretty simple to understand why Operatives needed a nerf, and if you dont agree to this, you have either not fought a geared one, or been lucky enough to dodge all of them. I sadly cant say the same.

[Theagg]

To the OP, yes, it had also occured to me how the reduction to 1.5 seconds of Knockdown now will match the GCD time.

 

Which effectively will now give those players knocked down a free get out of jail card from that effect most of the time.

 

Take any lag into account and the knockdown now becomes a moot point, by the time the op/scoundrels GCD has cycled in the majority of cases, the target will be free and in postion to hit them before the op/scoundrel can do anything else.

 

Besides, all this talk of players being locked out for 3 seconds (as it is now) by operative/scoundrel knockdowns, as though that is the problem, kind of pales into irrelevance when there is plenty of video evidence out that demonstrating how easily even now that 3 second knockdown can be broken out of using a CC break.

[Ghingis]

So... okay... if you want to talk about animation bugs and stuff like that - I have a whole list of reasons why the entire Empire Class Line-Up needs to be nerfed yesterday.

 

Animation bugs are not the problem. Should your Escape make you immediately jump to your feet? Absolutely! Should Bioware try fixing that before they try nerfing the class? ABSOLUTELY!

 

But guess what? The nerf to my class is happening anyway. And what I am offering is a lot less, "Screw you! You are now broken beyond repair!" than what is currently on the real table.

 

Unfortunately, you aren't dying because of an animation bug. You're dying because I can produce insane amounts of damage in very little time. The stun has nothing to do with it. I really wish it were that simple, friend. I really, really do.

 

Thanks for your comment!

 

But aslong as they are not fixing the animation bug, which makes us be CC'd for longer then the tooltip says, then this change is just fine.

 

And the reason I am dying is because I am CC'd, if I am not CC'd I can simply turn around to the Operative and start fighting him. As soon as I can start fighting back I can outplay the Operative and end up winning most of the time, the problem is that I go way too low in the initial opener without being able to even move my character at all.

[Ghingis]

I wouldn't even bother tbh. People are gitty over this change. In all honesty all the people we killed...will continue to die. The exception being Heavy armor. If they'd done it your/my way it would of allowed everyone to survive longer.

 

Guess Bioware thought that Sco/OP vs Heavy armor was the issue.

 

I rather just have myself out of CC as quickly as possible and you can keep doing your damage. I already spend half my playtime in CC because people use their **** on CD and Resolve being broken. So you can keep doing alot of damage, I dont mind, just let me be able to retaliate somewhat, instead of being stuck in CC til im dead from one single player.

[Manigma]

Ops can't do **** vs heavy armour at 50 with equal gear, I don't understand all these complaints they burst them down in a short time, sure they can kill squishies quick but so can other classes. As soon as we destealth we are extremely vulnerable too, that is why we have to pick of targets that are alone (read: not playing well) if you are alone then you deserve to be picked off.

[MrHotter]

Ops can't do **** vs heavy armour at 50 with equal gear, I don't understand all these complaints they burst them down in a short time, sure they can kill squishies quick but so can other classes. As soon as we destealth we are extremely vulnerable too, that is why we have to pick of targets that are alone (read: not playing well) if you are alone then you deserve to be picked off.

 

You missed the part in the tutorial that tells you how to assign training points. When you do that you get some new skills, and these let you ignore most of the armor and keep your target from escaping/fighting back while you take down most/alll of their HPs.