A serious look at the Smug/Op nerf - a better solution for 1.11? [long read]

[Raice]

hmmm yea no. Nerf is awesome. It doesn't hurt "everybody" as a matter of fact I am going to resub b/c of it. (maybe BW maybe my eyes are on you)

 

It hurts you, because the class you chose to play is going to be the next victim. Nerfs run on flames man... FOTM is born from it.

 

You are looking at your own bias when you say these things.

 

Thanks for your comment.

[Kyrandis]

I wouldn't even bother tbh. People are gitty over this change. In all honesty all the people we killed...will continue to die. The exception being Heavy armor. If they'd done it your/my way it would of allowed everyone to survive longer.

 

Guess Bioware thought that Sco/OP vs Heavy armor was the issue.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kyrandis

[Raice]

Post this on the test realm forums, not here.

 

How do I do that? I don't know where those are.

[Raice]

yes but what i mean is its not normal to take half hp of someone with one click and dont forget that its cc type ability cause of the knock down effect

 

It was hardly half, but either way, it was all Critical Damage. Reducing the Critical Damage from Underdog would have made this irrelevant.

 

Thank you for your comments!

[Raice]

You can't touch the 30% critical damage because every dps class has the same talent. That's not the issue.

 

If you're going to nerf anytype of damage it should be the base damage of some abilities. Scoundrel and OPS have ridiculously high base abilities for damage. You take the high base damage + gear scaling + 30% talent + surge and you have a recipe for disaster. One of these 4 items has to go.

 

I have a scoundrel alt (level 30ish) which is killing things so much quicker than my sorc did or sentinel alt does with little downtime (due to pugnacity). Again this is even before the 30% damage talent, which tells me that bioware should look into the base damage.

 

Reducing the base damage will in effect reduce the Critical Damage, but later on, base damage is somewhat irrelevant.

 

You are owning face because no one has the Health to withstand your attacks anyway. On top of that, the stuff you are doing in 10-49 WZs is actually on par with what everyone else is doing. I know this because I've played them too. I am never ALWAYS the top player. Other classes outperform me in Kills and Damage all the time. Am I ever on top? Sure. But so are they. At 50 when people have gear... this is a completely different ordeal.

[Kieran]

This thread really makes me lose faith in the future of the game if these are seriously the type of responses it garnered. At least after the nerf people will finally realize how terrible we will be against high expertise targets, even now my crits are rarely hitting for 5k (which by the way is a medal, obviously by design) even with the biochem adrenal and relic.

 

Nice post by the way, I'm glad to see other people giving proper thought out suggestions instead of just the usual crying.

[Ghingis]

The KO duration is only 3s. This is a fairly short Stun duration considering what else is out there. It seems like it's too much, because we do so much damage to you in those 3s. Reduce our Critical Damage (which is what makes us so powerful) and this 3s duration will be a cakewalk for you.

 

You guys have to start seeing this:

3s Stun is standard - every class can do this (probably longer.) The Critical Damage is not standard - no other class can do the Crit Damage we do in such a short amount of time to one target.

 

The current play state of Scrapper/Concealment vaires. Our rotation is relatively easy. What isn't easy is when we aren't doing the rotation. This DOES happen, you know? When we aren't in Rotation - it's pretty difficult. We are doing a lot. I'm trying to show that when you reduce our Critical Damage - our Rotation will not devastate you, and we will be forced into a situation where it is much more difficult for us. You have to look at the big picture here.

 

You ARE correct about Resolve, however. It is totally FUBARed.

 

They need to revamp so many abilities if they remove some of your crit damage though. This simply because you keep the same amount of CC, but wont do that much damage in this CC.

 

This will end up with me as a Sentinel coming out of the stun with more hp then you will ever be able to remove whilst I can actively fight you, and I will end up butching you instead because I will hit you like a truck pretty much.

 

I think the easy way is to nerf the CC abit, and nerf some of the opening damage which has been done. This will effectively still make you able to kill players who does not react properly to still fall over every time, whilst giving skilled players a chance to react and try to counter that burst. That for me is exactly what PvP is about, aslong as there is something that me as a player can effectively do to try and counter someone else by outplaying them and using my CD's properly, thats a good game.

 

I do understand the points you bring up though, and to some extent I do agree, but I just think Operatives as a whole just needs revamping if they reduce your crit damage.

 

Edit: Also kudos for being an Operative with a clue. In total you are the second Operative I have met that actually seem to understand game mechanics and how they work in PvP.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ghingis

[Golarz]

You die before you can react because of the Critical Damage we are able to apply before the Stun wears off. If it's not that stun, then we would just use a different stun.

 

The thing is, that you are all exploiters. Yes, you are.

Why?

Becouse animation of charcter geting up from your stun is broket, it baseicaly prolonges your stun by 2 seconds.

It's not your foult though, it's BioWares.

And now they will fix this by nerfing your stun to 1,5s. If you add that broken animation you will get 3,5 seconds of stunn so it will work as intended.

[Pozz]

I do look forward for this change immensively as the current state is just redicolous. However I have seen op/scoundrels out of stealth and that turns their usefulness quite a lot down, they die pretty fast and isn't really of any real use apart from the "hey guys I took out a person in 5 secs, without him being able to do anything" which is of great frustration of both parties.

 

I feel like their out of stealth damage should be increased a little, and maybe add an ability in the trees to make them get an instant underworld medicine cast once in a while for some surviveability. =)

[Pozz]

Edit: Also kudos for being an Operative with a clue. In total you are the second Operative I have met that actually seem to understand game mechanics and how they work in PvP.

 

Agreed, such a nice change from the standard whine threads

[Raice]

They need to revamp so many abilities if they remove some of your crit damage though. This simply because you keep the same amount of CC, but wont do that much damage in this CC.

 

This will end up with me as a Sentinel coming out of the stun with more hp then you will ever be able to remove whilst I can actively fight you, and I will end up butching you instead because I will hit you like a truck pretty much.

 

I think the easy way is to nerf the CC abit, and nerf some of the opening damage which has been done. This will effectively still make you able to kill players who does not react properly to still fall over every time, whilst giving skilled players a chance to react and try to counter that burst. That for me is exactly what PvP is about, aslong as there is something that me as a player can effectively do to try and counter someone else by outplaying them and using my CD's properly, thats a good game.

 

I do understand the points you bring up though, and to some extent I do agree, but I just think Operatives as a whole just needs revamping if they reduce your crit damage.

 

Edit: Also kudos for being an Operative with a clue. In total you are the second Operative I have met that actually seem to understand game mechanics and how they work in PvP.

 

Here's the thing, though man. If they do this nerf - no one is going to use KO or Flechette Round - which are the abilities this thread is all about. We're already talking about strategies to make up for the loss. The best we have is to make a hybrid with Sawbones/Medicine. It's not right for any class to HAVE to make a hybrid in order to function. I'm not saying that for just Smuggler/Op - I'm saying that for the sake of all Classes.

 

Since we won't be using Flechette Round - we aren't getting the Armor Penetration we need... which basically means we won't be doing damage anyway. The KO is what allows us to get through our Burst Rotation. Without it - we won't be doing damage anyway.

 

Sentinels obliterate us anyway lol. The ONLY thing we have going is the fact that we kill you before we give you the chance. And... that's just simply not right. By nerfing our Critical Damage, at best, we will put a ding in you, and it'll be one epic fight to see who gets the killing blow. It might actually make us clinch our sphincter in fear for a change! Wouldn't THAT be fun?

 

I think the entire class needs an overhaul, honestly. But, in all truth of the matter - this thread would be talking about an entirely different "problem" if I thought it would matter. The "really real" problem has nothing to do with anything I've written here. But what "really really" needs to happen... isn't going to. This is the best I can do.

 

Thanks for your comments! I'm glad there are people who can listen to reason and see that we Smugglers/Ops aren't all laughing at your corpses. We see the issue. We don't like it either. We know how important the bigger picture is. I just don't want to see my class nerfed to the point that it is no longer fun to play. These were the concessions I was personally willing to make, and I think they are reasonable.

 

Once people realize that with these changes, we aren't hitting them 4-5 times in a row with 6k Critical Damage each in 3-7s... they will see the light I think.

[zqsd]

First of all KO will not use the full resolve unless BIOWARE intentionally makes it that way. It will only do ~700/1000 Resolve.

 

Actually it will probably do less, it will be approximately the same thing than the assassin opener but with far more damage.

 

I don't think damage has anything to do on resolve and since the assassin KD fills ~40% of the bar, it should probably do the same.

[YpaWinz]

All your other attacks do kinetic/energy damage, and acid blades on top of superb damage gives all your attacks basically around 30% damage buff (more if criticals are considered). For 15 seconds. Spammable ability. Which basically means - forever.

 

Except the part where acid blade is only applied by Backstab and Hidden Strike. Both of which require us to be behind the target. Hidden strike requires stealth and backstab is on a 9 second cooldown. Neither of them are going to be "spammable" in any situation unless your target is AFK.

[darianith]

all the scoundrel's burst its pretty much that out of stealth stun and attack take that away and were nothing. instead of people learning how to fight scoundrels and kill them they instead run to the forumns to qq about how op he is he stunned me and sinked my health but i didnt think to pop defensive cds or burst cds and destroy him. Hey there is even a thing called health stims 0.o cmon people dont start crying nerf on every class that is able to kill you Edited January 23, 2012 by darianith

[Ghingis]

Here's the thing, though man. If they do this nerf - no one is going to use KO or Flechette Round - which are the abilities this thread is all about. We're already talking about strategies to make up for the loss. The best we have is to make a hybrid with Sawbones/Medicine. It's not right for any class to HAVE to make a hybrid in order to function. I'm not saying that for just Smuggler/Op - I'm saying that for the sake of all Classes.

 

Since we won't be using Flechette Round - we aren't getting the Armor Penetration we need... which basically means we won't be doing damage anyway. The KO is what allows us to get through our Burst Rotation. Without it - we won't be doing damage anyway.

 

Sentinels obliterate us anyway lol. The ONLY thing we have going is the fact that we kill you before we give you the chance. And... that's just simply not right. By nerfing our Critical Damage, at best, we will put a ding in you, and it'll be one epic fight to see who gets the killing blow. It might actually make us clinch our sphincter in fear for a change! Wouldn't THAT be fun?

 

I think the entire class needs an overhaul, honestly. But, in all truth of the matter - this thread would be talking about an entirely different "problem" if I thought it would matter. The "really real" problem has nothing to do with anything I've written here. But what "really really" needs to happen... isn't going to. This is the best I can do.

 

Thanks for your comments! I'm glad there are people who can listen to reason and see that we Smugglers/Ops aren't all laughing at your corpses. We see the issue. We don't like it either. We know how important the bigger picture is. I just don't want to see my class nerfed to the point that it is no longer fun to play. These were the concessions I was personally willing to make, and I think they are reasonable.

 

Once people realize that with these changes, we aren't hitting them 4-5 times in a row with 6k Critical Damage each in 3-7s... they will see the light I think.

 

Does it not take time aswell to rise up after you get knocked down, like a 1 sec animation whre you cant do anything? Because I think with that the CC will still be just fine for an opener, especially given it does alot of damage.

[RealAeiouy]

Bw's solution is better and can be expressed in 15432 less words

[Demarcc]

I play a Scoundrel Sawbones. A healer.

 

I'm one of the main targets for IA's. The nice green cones of *I'm a healer, kill me* are like a magnet to them. Do I feel they should be nerf'd? Nope. They are fine atm IMO. They do exactly what the class is supposed to do.

 

If your being killed to a single Conc / Scrapper in the duration of the 3s Knockdown as many seem to claim, all I can say is wear your gear and stop putting it on your companions. I've NEVER been killed by a solo IA in the duration of thier 3s knockdown. Ever. Period.

 

Once I get up I have the tools to escape them / live long enough for help to peel them off me. The full resolve bar means they cant stop me as I CC them in return and flee. Sure if all my CC's are on CD and there is no help around I'm pretty boned. It'll take them awhile to kill me tho, I don't just fold unless the stars align for them (All my CD'd are down and all thier's are up) in which case GG I'll die fast .. but NEVER in the 3s or 4-6s most people seem to taut.

 

Now crying because an IA knocked you down and 4 other members of thier team pounded you is dumb. Crying because 2 IA's jumped you and near instantly killed you is dumb. That's called working together, try it sometime. When there are two IA's working together in a game as a healer I ask for a guard and stay close to the tank / other people. In PuGs it can be annoying if no one will guard you, or your team mates get so tunnel visioned on that sorc that none peel the IA off your ***. That's not a class issue tho, that's a playing with ******* issue.

 

Personally I think, for me personally, this *nerf* will make IA's more of an issue to me. Thier knockdown wont fill my resolve bar so instead of a 3s stun and ~50% health loss I am gonna get a 1.5s followed by a 3s stun and maby 50% health loss. For me being unable to control my character for longer is more of an issue than the damage I take. Sure now we'll take 50% loss in more time ... but it'll still be 50% loss just longer I cant do anything about it. More irritating for me.

 

My own opinion. They are fine. Learn to counter them. Don't cry when one + 2 of thier team or 2 of them gank you. Its exactly the same with any other class. My server sith guilds run 4-sorc pre-mades. 4 sorc's on vent = instant death. Yet i dont cry *nerf sorc's* because its not the sorc thats killing me, its the team work on vent that's killing me. The counter? Grab some friends and unleash some payback.

[Raice]

Bw's solution is better and can be expressed in 15432 less words

 

Thanks for taking the time to copy my post and then inserting it into a word counter. I appreciate that you appreciate that I took the time to write out something in great detail that I care about. I appreciate that you think I am maybe a "little crazy" because I care that I express my thoughts very clearly so that when you offer me your rebuttle and you have clearly misunderstood everything I had written - it was not because I failed to write them, but because you failed to read or you simply have no idea what you are talking about. I'm also glad that you care about this issue, too.

 

Did you happen to read any of those words by chance? Would you care to explain how Bioware's solution is better, or did you just want to ignore your responsibility as a contributor to this thread completely?

 

Either way, thank you for your comment!

[Raice]

Does it not take time aswell to rise up after you get knocked down, like a 1 sec animation whre you cant do anything? Because I think with that the CC will still be just fine for an opener, especially given it does alot of damage.

 

So... okay... if you want to talk about animation bugs and stuff like that - I have a whole list of reasons why the entire Empire Class Line-Up needs to be nerfed yesterday.

 

Animation bugs are not the problem. Should your Escape make you immediately jump to your feet? Absolutely! Should Bioware try fixing that before they try nerfing the class? ABSOLUTELY!

 

But guess what? The nerf to my class is happening anyway. And what I am offering is a lot less, "Screw you! You are now broken beyond repair!" than what is currently on the real table.

 

Unfortunately, you aren't dying because of an animation bug. You're dying because I can produce insane amounts of damage in very little time. The stun has nothing to do with it. I really wish it were that simple, friend. I really, really do.

 

Thanks for your comment!

[LordSemaj]

Acid blade does not give 30% damage buff.

 

Take the percent of the target you are fighting. Ill use my smuggler(medium armor) as an example.

 

23% Damage reduction, 50% of that is 11.5% more damage. With the nerf its 6.9% damage buff. The nerf will only really effect heavy armor targets such as Bounty Hunters/Troopers and Guardians/Juggs. Shoot first aside we really honestly will do roughly the same damage to Sorc/Sages.

That's not actually how it works. Armor penetration is against your armor value, not your mitigation value. So 50% penetration means you effectively have 50% LESS armor.

 

Since armor mitigation is not calculated on a straight scale, you just effectively dropped a tank into light armor. That's why operatives were mowing through tanks like they were clothies, and that's before considering all the internal damage.

[Raice]

I wouldn't even bother tbh. People are gitty over this change. In all honesty all the people we killed...will continue to die. The exception being Heavy armor. If they'd done it your/my way it would of allowed everyone to survive longer.

 

Guess Bioware thought that Sco/OP vs Heavy armor was the issue.

 

Well... I gave it a shot anyway.

 

Thanks, man!

[kckkryptonite]

Where is the tldr? "Nerf my class less pl0x". No seriously, Hidden Strike is ridiculous: a 3s knockdown (UNESCAPABLE) + crazy damage. 2 for 1 special and you just want to nerf crit by 15%? Lol.

 

I'm trying to imagine how nice Spinning Kick/Spike would be if it also did 2k damage, +1 second to the stun, and no CD, for 2 TP.

 

Yeah, it's a side-by-side comparison, don't throw the "sustained dps" argument because guess what, in WZs killings the target in <10s then to rinse and repeat; is much better than winning an extended 1v1 that lasts a minute because of "good sustained dps".

Edited January 23, 2012 by kckkryptonite

[wixxkruppel]

No seriously, Hidden Strike is ridiculous: a 3s knockdown (UNESCAPABLE)

 

How would you know Hidden Strike is ridiculous? It's beyond obvious you've never even been attacked by an op/scoundrel.

Edited January 23, 2012 by wixxkruppel

[caminheiros]

Theres to many people here talking that not even tried to play a smugler/operative !!!

[YpaWinz]

Theres to many people here talking that not even tried to play a smugler/operative !!!

 

Pretty much this.