Let's compare early WoW with early TOR

[vekkth]

I un subbed a while ago and my free month is finished. And guess what? I can still post.

 

TORTANIC!

 

--------------------------------- End of rine! Pl0zxxxx don't BANNU me!

 

I think you lie. I am judging upon the forums in general - since yesterday most of the hate threads are gone, and our well known posters like papazoosomething are quiet. i think you just entered your code later then most of us, so you still have a free month time. or you have subbed but pretend you didnt. either way, i am rather positive people without an active subscription are able to post on the forums.

[Zerfalll]

Let's compare 2004 to 2012.

 

Let's not.

[Racheakt]

by the same token swtor hasn't had 6 years of refinement.

 

that said leveling is broken in wow unless you like being glued to a strict linear path, there are no group quests or world bosses in the entire game and "the lore", the thing that the franchise was built on, is a train wreck.

 

but hey no one left playing it cares about any of that so that's all ok ye ?

 

c'est la vie

 

TOR had how big of a budget? it was en development for how many years?

 

If you are going to do a vanilla mmo with an A+ license -- at least get the vanilla paste right, not the cuttlefish delight we have now.

 

I am still playing this game as KOTOR 3, but once i get to the of a couple of the class stories I am not sure this has the *umph* to keep me along for the long haul.

 

 

Enjoy the game for what it is.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Meluna

[notinsai]

All i want from bioware at this point is to learn from MMOs of today and not try to reinvent the wheel so to speak. WoW is as successful as it is for a good reason.

 

I played on Blackrock from day 1 on WoW. There were queues upwards of 2000 to sit through. There was no lfg tool, no pvp battlegrounds, no pvp rewards. Server lag was incredible. The server was down so often that it became a practice for us to raid the closest RP server on the server list (Argent Dawn) with naked level 1 gnomes (probably videos of this still exists on youtube). It took time for it to become what it did.

 

 

In comparison SWTOR has been pretty good. Though i do wish for them to borrow elements that have proven to be successful from WoW and other MMOs, and not try to reinvent them from scratch. The addon debate will go on for a while yet, but i do hope Bioware allow us to modify the UI, even if they only allow cosmetic changes to modify how current information is displayed.

 

its 4am and i need sleep. ciao.

[Barathos]

TOR had how big of a budget? If you are going to do a vanilla mmo with an A+ license -- at least get the vanilla paste right, not the cuttlefish delight we have now.

 

+1 for south park reference.

 

And could somebody explain the +A, AA, AAA license thing? I've never heard of this in MMOs.

[Vaegaknight]

I played WoW on release, and although it did have some bugs it didn't have nearly as many problems as SWTOR does. SWTOR problems include everything from light rays shooting through the world, becoming invincible in combat by dancing, glitching mana to have infinite healing, duping items in your mail box, all combat actions delayed by half a second, having high-res textures vanish, etc.

 

There is a difference between having some bugs and having a BROKEN, UNFINISHED GAME.

 

You're deluding yourself.

 

Nostalgia is a terrible, terrible thing.

[iRoddy]

I think you lie. I am judging upon the forums in general - since yesterday most of the hate threads are gone, and our well known posters like papazoosomething are quiet. i think you just entered your code later then most of us, so you still have a free month time. or you have subbed but pretend you didnt. either way, i am rather positive people without an active subscription are able to post on the forums.

 

I entered my code a long time ago. I had 3 day early game access. And there was a 48 hr grace time period.

[DarkLordPatch]

Really??? Really???

 

The people that post these things obviously didn't play OG WoW. I played from release and let me tell you this game operates much more smoothly than WoW could even hope to at launch.

 

I can't believe no one remembers that WoW was so buggy and sketchy at the beginning it would go down for hours at a time.... so much so that they would 'refund' a subscription day because it was so unplayable.

 

No one remembers having raids scheduled for Tuesday to only show up and the Raid would be bugged out. Or there would be random server freezes, restarts and raid resets during the middle of raids.

 

Just stop comparing.

[Vaegaknight]

Really??? Really???

 

The people that post these things obviously didn't play OG WoW. I played from release and let me tell you this game operates much more smoothly than WoW could even hope to at launch.

 

I can't believe no one remembers that WoW was so buggy and sketchy at the beginning it would go down for hours at a time.... so much so that they would 'refund' a subscription day because it was so unplayable.

 

No one remembers having raids scheduled for Tuesday to only show up and the Raid would be bugged out. Or there would be random server freezes, restarts and raid resets during the middle of raids.

 

Just stop comparing.

 

The thing I hated most was the loot bug. I was stuck looting for HOURS. I couldn't complete quests that required me to loot stuff. Grargh. If it "wasn't that bad", I wouldn't have been credited with nearly a month of free play time. That was thanks to game issues and server issues alike.

 

Also, comparing TORs budget to WoWs? Are you really? You can only do that if you know exactly how that budget was allocated. Of COURSE a game with THOUSANDS OF HOURS of voice acting and cinematics is going to have a huge budget. People. Common sense. Use it.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vaegaknight

[Offended]

You obviously weren't there at release, it's clear since you're citing Wikipedia articles instead of speaking from experience.

 

Let me tell you about just a few problems in the early days of World of Warcraft:

 

• In the early days, you couldn't loot anything without fear of getting your character stuck. Yes that's right, looting could cause your character to become permanently stuck.
   
  
• Lack of end game content? There were no raid bosses, no challenging end game content. No Onyxia or Molten Core, just standing around in your capital city dueling other players of the same faction.
   
  
• Server stability. You think the server crash maintenance is bad here? This was a cake walk compared to games like WoW and SWG. WoW's servers were down so much they started refunding people for all the downtime.
   
  
• UI Customization? There was barely anything at release, people waited for months to for a decent selection of customization choices. And the stuff that finally came was from 3rd party sources. Blizzard didn't start adding their own customization until much later.
  

 

You know why the Bug List and Features List is so much longer on World of Warcraft patches from 2004? Because they had more issues that needed to be addressed immediately.

 

 

It's obvious you were not there either.

 

Since the first major server downtime, they gave free game time. Outside of [most] regular maintenance, they had a policy that if there was a day you couldn't play because of the realm being down you got a free day. That policy is still in effect.

 

The funny thing is that today's hardware runs 100x faster than the hardware of mid 2004, when the servers were most likely purchased and brought online. Those servers had to handle tens of thousands of players or more per realm, which completely overloaded them. They had to create the log in queue just to maintain a QoS. I get massive lag in Swtor when there's more than 10-15 people in the area. Playing a warzone like huttball, I get a good second or two of server lag.

 

Yes, having played wow since release date, I 100% know the difference between server lag and network lag.

 

When the Servers were upgraded the first time, in middle of Vanilla wow, it nearly eliminated the "Loot Lag" issue. When they upgraded the realms for the prep of WotLK, it did eliminate Loot Lag.

 

 

As for the end game content. I always wonder where people come up with the idea that wow didn't release with MC and Onyxia when the game went live. Or that UBRS was and still is a raid zone. The fact that you had to get keys to enter these raid instances did not mean there was no end game content, it just meant that you didn't have a guild that was smart enough to realize this.

 

 

 

Bug list? seriously? The game is 7 going to be on 8 years, yes, the bug list is longer than wow. I'd venture in to the 10's of thousands of bugs have been fixed after release. The majority of patches released for wow have been balance adjustments and raid/dungeon fixes. They've said a multitude of times that not every change fix or issue will be the patch notes, it's not possible.

 

 

UI mods where being released since before day 1. CT_Mod was the first addon, released shortly before wow going Live. It took a while because people were enjoying the game and not spending hours researching Lua and the XML/Lua interface code and at the time, non-existent documentation about the wow API.

 

Where's Swtors UI? Oh, right that is the one that is non-existant.

[Vaegaknight]

It's obvious you were not there either.

 

Since the first major server downtime, they gave free game time. Outside of [most] regular maintenance, they had a policy that if there was a day you couldn't play because of the realm being down you got a free day. That policy is still in effect.

 

The funny thing is that today's hardware runs 100x faster than the hardware of mid 2004, when the servers were most likely purchased and brought online. Those servers had to handle tens of thousands of players or more per realm, which completely overloaded them. They had to create the log in queue just to maintain a QoS. I get massive lag in Swtor when there's more than 10-15 people in the area. Playing a warzone like huttball, I get a good second or two of server lag.

 

Yes, having played wow since release date, I 100% know the difference between server lag and network lag.

 

UI mods where being released since before day 1. CT_Mod was the first addon, released shortly before wow going Live. It took a while because people were enjoying the game and not spending hours researching Lua and the XML/Lua interface code and at the time, non-existent documentation about the wow API.

 

Where's Swtors UI? Oh, right that is the one that is non-existant.

 

So, all you have is complaints? What the hell are you doing on this game then? I sincerely hope you cancelled your subscription because if you're paying to -whine-? Then that is very, very sad. If you want to play WoW, go back to WoW. Do it. The game has become a watered down cesspool. I hope you enjoy!

 

P.s I've only lagged a few times on SWTOR. It's a very rare occasion for me. So it's probably you.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vaegaknight

[Racheakt]

+1 for south park reference.

 

And could somebody explain the +A, AA, AAA license thing? I've never heard of this in MMOs.

 

A+ AA AAA -- all are interchangeable I think. Think of it like comparing a Pixar move to the average Troma release -- if Troma announces a new movie you know what to expect.

 

All references to the popularity of the source lore and the perceived caliber of the developer.

 

Bioware (A list developer) + Star Wars (A list license) = High expectations

 

Cryptic (B List developer)+ Champions (C list license)= Low expectations.

 

Cryptic + Star Trek (A List license)= mid level expectations, with alot of fans who want it to be good.

 

I think with TOR we are the the SW fans wanting this to be better than it is, but sticking with it to see if it develops into a better title.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Racheakt

[Vaegaknight]

A+ AA AAA

 

All references to the popularity of the source lore and the perceived caliber of the developer.

 

Bioware (A list developer) + Star Wars (A list license) = High expectations

 

Cryptic (B List developer)+ Champions (C list license)= Low expectations.

 

Cryptic + Star Trek (A List license)= mid level expectations, with alot of fans who want it to be good.

 

I think with TOR we are the the SW fans wanting this to be better than it is, but sticking with it to see if it develops into a better title.

 

Whining doesn't make games better. Look at WoW. You're not complaining because you want the game to be better, you're complaining because you can. Because you think you're right and that you know better.

 

How do I know this? Because this is the internet. None of you have really provided constructive criticism. That would actually help make the game better. You know, going into the threads the mods have designated for suggestions? How about the suggestions forum?

 

But no. You come to this thread to whine. That's it. Please don't martyr yourself.

[Barathos]

A+ AA AAA

 

All references to the popularity of the source lore and the perceived caliber of the developer.

 

Bioware (A list developer) + Star Wars (A list license) = High expectations

 

Cryptic (B List developer)+ Champions (C list license)= Low expectations.

 

Cryptic + Star Trek (A List license)= mid level expectations, with alot of fans who want it to be good.

 

I think with TOR we are the the SW fans wanting this to be better than it is, but sticking with it to see if it develops into a better title.

 

Ooooh thanks for the explanation!

 

So, all you have is complaints? What the hell are you doing on this game then? I sincerely hope you cancelled your subscription because if you're paying to -whine-? Then that is very, very sad. If you want to play WoW, go back to WoW. Do it. The game has become a watered down cesspool. I hope you enjoy!

 

P.s I've only lagged a few times on SWTOR. It's a very rare occasion for me. So it's probably you.

 

She/He/It is pointing out why WoW had such a bad release and why SWToR should probably be better than that. No need to go all fanboy and ask for she/he/it to end her/his/it's subscription.

 

This post basicly started with "This is when SWTOR did X, this is when WoW did X".

 

Whining doesn't make games better. Look at WoW. You're not complaining because you want the game to be better, you're complaining because you can. Because you think you're right and that you know better.

 

How do I know this? Because this is the internet. None of you have really provided constructive criticism. That would actually help make the game better. You know, going into the threads the mods have designated for suggestions? How about the suggestions forum?

 

But no. You come to this thread to whine. That's it. Please don't martyr yourself.

 

Holy moly... You quoted something that wasn't even remotely hostile! What are you doing? Trying to be the protector of Bioware? Trust me, it never works for ANY company. I tried defending Blizzard in the WoW forums, lol what a joke. You'll end up with the same disappointment at your rate.

 

Bioware is a big boy company, it can defend itself. It always has. *Looks at DA2* ok... well...

Edited January 23, 2012 by Barathos

[Mobiwang]

Just going to throw this out there:

 

If Bioware released the game with all the content/options WoW has now....

 

 

 

We'd be having space pandas by March. I, for one, do not want space pandas.

[Vaegaknight]

Ooooh thanks for the explanation!

 

 

 

She/He/It is pointing out why WoW had such a bad release and why SWToR should probably be better than that. No need to go all fanboy and ask for she/he/it to end her/his/it's subscription.

 

This post basicly started with "This is when SWTOR did X, this is when WoW did X".

 

SWOTOR *did* have a better release than WoW.

[Vaegaknight]

 

 

 

Holy moly... You quoted something that wasn't even remotely hostile! What are you doing? Trying to be the protector of Bioware? Trust me, it never works for ANY company. I tried defending Blizzard in the WoW forums, lol what a joke. You'll end up with the same disappointment at your rate.

 

Bioware is a big boy company, it can defend itself. It always has. *Looks at DA2* ok... well...

 

I'm not trying to defend Bioware. These people genuinely infuriate me. The whole generation of entitled, lazy, whiny, know-it-all, want-it-now gamers that WoW has bred infuriates me.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vaegaknight

[Barathos]

SWOTOR *did* have a better release than WoW.

 

It did, but if there was a game out that was just as succesful, like WoW, and WoW came out. I'm pretty sure they'd know what the heck to do and how to prevent server lag. WoW went to DAoC and EQ1 for info about MMOs, I would think Bioware did the same, but I havn't heard otherwise.

 

This ability delay was in beta, right? They knew about this in beta, right? And it's not a problem with the servers or anything, it's their ANIMATIONS. I know several people who try other MMOs and dislike them because of how their animations don't like up with what you're actually do. Fludity, if you would.

 

I'm suffering from server lag, I don't CARE if you're not, I DO NOT CARE if you have the most amazing system since 1982! I, not you, am having lag that is because of server lag. I've never gotten this in Rift or any MMO before SWToR.

 

Edit: And this is pointing at the people who say "I don't suffer X, so why should you suffer X?" crowd, not you in particular. Although if you did say this, then i'm pointing at you.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Barathos

[RocNessMonster]

awww thank you so much for reminding me of those, how could i have forgot.

Also it was not only Tarren Mill, Ashenvale tennis games were quite popular among lower levels too. And yeah all of that for effing zero i mean ZERO rewards. no pvp items, no ranks, no titles, nothing.

 

...and that's the way we liked it. PVPing for fun not profit.

[lordgracy]

SWOTOR *did* have a better release than WoW.

 

So did lord of the rings, RIFT, Warhammer, etc. And they should. Expectations get higher as technology progresses. Its the natural order of things. This is 2012 and MMOs need to be places on higher standards. At the very least feature full at release with enough content to keep the playerbase busy until the next content patch. I guess its asking too much to have a combat log, and UI customization at launch. Right Fanboys?

 

 

**NO ONE IS SAYING TOR SHOULD HAVE AS MUCH CONTENT AS PRESENT DAY WOW. ITS THE FEATURES. THAT'S THE ISSUE.**

Edited January 23, 2012 by lordgracy

[Racheakt]

Whining doesn't make games better. Look at WoW. You're not complaining because you want the game to be better, you're complaining because you can. Because you think you're right and that you know better.

 

How do I know this? Because this is the internet. None of you have really provided constructive criticism. That would actually help make the game better. You know, going into the threads the mods have designated for suggestions? How about the suggestions forum?

 

But no. You come to this thread to whine. That's it. Please don't martyr yourself.

 

I am not being antagonistic, just giving a point of view.

 

I was in the Beta, I wrote pages of feedback on many of the issues that the players are now fussing about. (UI, Crafting etc...)

 

My point is there was higher than average expectations for TOR, while in beta i learned to temper my expectations and desires with what BW was actually producing. I am fine with the game where the game is design wise, I want what has become basic MMO elements at this point: scaleable/moveable UI, Macros, Addons, Group Finder, target of target, mouseover skills, etc.... but before any new features, fix the major bugs like skill delay and this new one where I am getting a random loading screen while walking around in the station.

 

No need to get defensive.

[Barathos]

I'm not trying to defend Bioware. These people genuinely infuriate me. The whole generation of entitled, know it all gamers that WoW has bred infuriates me.

 

I got that in Rift, and you know what I did? I walked away. There's really nothing you can do to sway people's opinion, even if you have cold-hard facts. Do I agree with the people who complain? Yes, to the point where they all have a valid complaint and I know where they're coming from.

 

Do I think that they should never ever come here to point out problems in a game with a "I quit" post? No, why? Because if nobody reports problems and then leaves because of them, who's to say it'll get fixed?

 

Edit: Spelling issues. >_>

 

Re-edited because I just looked at one of my points and it totally contradicts with what I said. O_O

Edited January 23, 2012 by Barathos

[Seriousgoat]

Wow is a better game engine, with better devs. BW don't even know how to fix the game they just "finished" making. I mean really over a month in and I still have 7 quests I can't abandon, abilities still only work half the time in "fast paced" pvp. What a joke.

 

Game havent been out long and you cant assume that they gonna fix everything in a month. Stupid.

[Vaegaknight]

So did lord of the rings, RIFT, Warhammer, etc. And they should. Expectations get higher as technology progresses. Its the natural order of things. This is 2012 and MMOs need to be places on higher standards. At the very least feature full at realease with enough content to keep the playerbase busy until the next content patch. I guess its asking too much to have a combat log, and UI customization at launch. Right Fanboys?

 

 

**NO ONE IS SAYING TOR SHOULD HAVE AS MUCH CONTENT AS PRESENT DAY WOW. ITS THE FEATURES. THAT'S THE ISSUE.**

 

"This is 2012..."

 

Combat logs keep people busy? UI customizations?

 

Those things would be NICE. But they're not NECESSARY. I'd rather have a sweet legacy system or a more polished space combat system. Your priorities seem a bit... Off.

 

*Facepalm*

Edited January 23, 2012 by Vaegaknight

[Vaegaknight]

I got that in Rift, and you know what I did? I walked away. There's really nothing you can do to sway people's opinion, even if you have cold-hard facts. Do I agree with the people who complain? Yes, to the point where they all have a valid complaint and I know where they're coming from.

 

Do I think that they should never ever come here to point out problems in a game with a "I quit" post? Yes, why? Because if nobody reports problems and then leaves because of them, who's to say it'll get fixed?

 

Edit: Spelling issues. >_>

 

Coming here and whining and crying doesn't do anything. They'll fix issues based on bug reports, ACTUAL suggestions and subscriber loss. They'll correlate them all and decide which needs to be fixed first. Like any MMO.