Let's compare early WoW with early TOR

[Ansultares]

that said leveling is broken in wow unless you like being glued to a strict linear path

Huh? This makes no sense.

 

There's so many quests to do, across so many zones. I understand if they're completely empty at this point, but it's a mature game.

 

Compared to SWTOR, it's practically a sandbox MMO. Though BC at least was the same linear crapiness that pervades this game. I haven't played since, but I imagine WoW kept going in that direction.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Ansultares

[MichellMich]

Ok. I can't help it. I've got time to burn.

 

I want to state for the record, I was not a WoW player during the times discussed below- Vanilla WoW. I starting playing WoW sometime after the release of tBC. I stopped shortly after Cataclysm.

 

According to wikipedia,

 

 

According to wikipedia,

 

 

 

According to WoWwiki, the first patch AFTER the official release date was patch 1.1.2 release on December 6 2004.

Which only removed time zone tabs. (Big fat hairy deal). I'm going to skip this one.

The next one however was significant. 18 December 2004

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.2.0

 

According to my math that is 26 days between release and first major post release date patch. It looks to me like there were a bunch of patches before the official release date. I'm assuming that these were patches found between the time the release to manufacture RTM and the release date. Maybe someone that remembers could fill us in

 

Look at the huge list of bug fixes.

 

 

Now lets look at SWTOR

 

According to http://www.wikiswtor.com/Patch_1.0.1

 

The first major patch was Patch 1.0.1 released on 27 December 2011

 

According to my math that is 15 days between release and first major post release patch.

Admittedly that does not include some of the small post release patches.

 

You obviously weren't there at release, it's clear since you're citing Wikipedia articles instead of speaking from experience.

 

Let me tell you about just a few problems in the early days of World of Warcraft:

 

• In the early days, you couldn't loot anything without fear of getting your character stuck. Yes that's right, looting could cause your character to become permanently stuck.
   
  
• There were no Battlegrounds of any kind. One spot became the meeting place for all PVP, that place being Tarren Mill. God help anyone trying to quest in that area, and the lag...
   
  
• Flight paths were not truly connected routes. If you had to fly somewhere that required connecting flight paths, you had to manually select each one as you made the journey. No walking away to grab a drink or use the bathroom... just sit there and watch the same redundant flight path, over and over and over.
   
  
• PVP rewards? Hahah, yea right.
   
  
• Lack of end game content? There were no raid bosses, no challenging end game content. No Onyxia or Molten Core, just standing around in your capital city dueling other players of the same faction.
   
  
• Server stability. You think the server crash maintenance is bad here? This was a cake walk compared to games like WoW and SWG. WoW's servers were down so much they started refunding people for all the downtime.
   
  
• UI Customization? There was barely anything at release, people waited for months to for a decent selection of customization choices. And the stuff that finally came was from 3rd party sources. Blizzard didn't start adding their own customization until much later.
  

 

My point is most of you people complaining have no idea what you're talking about when you compare WoW to SWTOR. You go and join a game that's had the last 8 years to finely tune every aspect of it's game play, and then complain because SWTOR isn't there yet. Anyone who played WoW from the very beginning knows it is a drastically different game than it was in 2004. Those of you who don't prove this, by showing your ignorance is spreading such nonsense.

 

Everyone has a right to criticize this game, but let's try and use factual information when making claims, shall we? You know why the Bug List and Features List is so much longer on World of Warcraft patches from 2004? Because they had more issues that needed to be addressed immediately.

Edited January 23, 2012 by MichellMich

[Rayvonuk]

Il compare the communities of both games.

 

At the start of wow the community was awsome, it was mainly made of people from other MMo's such as Doac, everquest and diablo 2. Most players were really friendly and helpfull and there was almost no elitism. The game was yet to introduce ranked pvp and arena, which changed the cummunities for the worse and attracted players better to suited to other styles of games, such as fps. All alot of these folks were bothered about was the accumulation of gear and points and they all wanted to be better then the rest.

To me, as well as doing alot of good things, wow ruined the genre, but thats another argument.

 

The forum community at the start of TOR is mostly horrible, it is made up of people that played wow just to PVP and get rankings and gear, these people dont really understand the proper concept of an MMO and had no interest in PVE, the main core of the game, whatsoever.

They are also more vocal and whiney as in wow every whim was answered if you cried about it for long enough, this is one reason alot the decent players and people left it a long time ago, some as early as tbc. Hopefully alot of the lol esports brigade will jump ship back to panda land some time soon.

 

Conclusion, the wow community started good and got worse and i predict that in this game the opposite will happen, not bound to be right though am I.

Alot of the negative people that constantly whine will gradually leave one by one and hopefully, in the end the majority of folks left around will be nicer and more appreciative and us friendly chaps will be better off in the long run.

I hope we can get back to playing for fun instead of playing to get virtual rewards and pointless rankings, i am allowed to dream afterall ..

Edited January 23, 2012 by Rayvonuk

[vekkth]

I played WoW on release, and although it did have some bugs it didn't have nearly as many problems as SWTOR does. SWTOR problems include everything from light rays shooting through the world, becoming invincible in combat by dancing, glitching mana to have infinite healing, duping items in your mail box, all combat actions delayed by half a second, having high-res textures vanish, etc.

 

There is a difference between having some bugs and having a BROKEN, UNFINISHED GAME.

 

aahahahhahahaha dude you are woooow

here i say - you either blatantly lie, or have a terribly short memory for a person pretending he played through wow launch. i think first, but may be just really some terrible memory.

 

 

look at those patch notes. just try to understand what in fact they did fix.

rogue sap now breaks after 15 seconds on players. AND IT WAS 60 SECONDS BEFORE. do you understand that? can you imagine how frustrating it was to pvp those days - just standing in the sap over and over again if rogue wants you to? do you think the same thing mentioning about fear? Priests and Locks chainfearing people endlessly with zero chance to break, no diminishing returns, no immunity after it wears out. fear/dot/fear/dot. same goes to polymorph.

 

Slam no longer STOPS warrior attacking. Fun? do you understand what does it mean? you had an ability on your class that stopped you from attacking after you use it, you have to restart autoattack each time you slammed. Needless to say Slam was such an awful ability back in the days noone really used it haha. Berserker rage now only increases incoming damage by 10 percent down from 20 ahahahah. Warriors still were the hardest class to level for 2 years after that but before this change - you go to bers stance - you die, melt like a butter.

 

Buffs affecting your entire party for priests and druids. Lasts longer then basic version. You can only get spell from lvl 60 dungeon drop. Do you understand what does it mean? To manually recast buffs during raid on every single group of 8, and that if you got a lucky drop, a helping guildie or spent godawful amount of money on the AH for it.

 

Now, the funniest parts. Do you see any similar changes to paladin class? can you? No, you cant. Do you know what it means? That paladins had to manually recast an effing 5 minutes buff on every person in your raid. Paladins had to have a raid addons that helped them designate a group for every paladin so he keeps it buffed. Imagine how much fun was that? every five minutes rebuffing 4 party members? Imagine how badly people were yelled at if they were a bit slow on that in raids?

 

Druid armor change - that means druids could have actually start leveling. No companions, remember it - if you want to level solo a druid, you are fcked so bad.

 

But that all pales to the amount of bugs, poor design, class/race imbalance, stale endgame for next 1 year at least.

 

Rolled a hybrid class? You are a healer now. No you cant tank, you cant dps (outside of mandatory 1 manabattery spriest in every raid), you cant only heal. And that, my friends, is for next 3 ! years of this game, only TBC changed that.

 

3 years of clicking holy light/flash of light on your tank, how much fun was that? 3 years of putting a rock on your shadowbolt hotkey during raids, how well designed the game was?

 

No way you could have played from start, you would have known all of this. Or I guess you are a goldman/satch analyst too, might be.

[Rinkitink]

I don't know why people consider an early content patch a good thing. I'd rather they have released the game with the content they had obviously already prepared (They didn't develop 1.1 in 15 days... durp.) and spent their dev time post-release making the game work the way it's supposed to.

 

Instead they release a new content patch, with even more bugs to fix.

[vekkth]

You obviously weren't there at release, it's clear since you're citing Wikipedia articles instead of speaking from experience.

 

Let me tell you about just a few problems in the early days of World of Warcraft:

 

• 
  
• In the early days, you couldn't loot anything without fear of getting your character stuck. Yes that's right, looting could cause your character to become permanently stuck.
   
  
• There were no Battlegrounds of any kind. One spot became the meeting place for all PVP, that place being Tarren Mill. God help anyone trying to quest in that area, and the lag...
   
  
• Flight paths were not truly connected routes. If you had to fly somewhere that required connecting flight paths, you had to manually select each one as you made the journey. No walking away to grab a drink or use the bathroom... just sit there and watch the same redundant flight path, over and over and over.
   
  
• PVP rewards? Hahah, yea right.
   
  
• Lack of end game content? There were no raid bosses, no challenging end game content. No Onyxia or Molten Core, just standing around in your capital city dueling other players of the same faction.
   
  
• Server stability. You think the server crash maintenance is bad here? This was a cake walk compared to games like WoW and SWG. WoW's servers were down so much they started refunding people for all the downtime.
   
  
• UI Customization? There was barely anything at release, people waited for months to for a decent selection of customization choices. And the stuff that finally came was from 3rd party sources. Blizzard didn't start adding their own customization until much later.
  

 

My point is most of you people complaining have no idea what you're talking about when you compare WoW to SWTOR. You go and join a game that's had the last 8 years to finely tune every aspect of it's game play, and then complain because SWTOR isn't there yet. Anyone who played WoW from the very beginning knows it is a drastically different game than it was in 2004. Those of you who don't prove this, by showing your ignorance is spreading such nonsense.

 

Everyone has a right to criticize this game, but let's try and use factual information when making claims, shall we? You know why the Bug List and Features List is so much longer on World of Warcraft patches from 2004? Because they had more issues that needed to be addressed immediately.

 

awww thank you so much for reminding me of those, how could i have forgot.

Also it was not only Tarren Mill, Ashenvale tennis games were quite popular among lower levels too. And yeah all of that for effing zero i mean ZERO rewards. no pvp items, no ranks, no titles, nothing.

[MikeMonger]

I played WoW on release, and although it did have some bugs it didn't have nearly as many problems as SWTOR does.

 

Someone's remembering the past through rose colored glasses.

 

WoW was a mess for months after release. But at the time it was ok because it was new and interesting and represented major leaps forward in the MMO market.

 

SWTOR doesn't even come close to representing that level of innovation. However, it is STILL far more stable at launch than WoW was.

Edited January 23, 2012 by MikeMonger

[Sandanglockta]

I wonder if we would be as forgiving to a new mobile phone entry if it were launched in the current environment of competition, and it required you to carry it around in a suitcase like phones from 15 years ago.

[barnnabis]

You don't need to compare wow to tor , every mmo has had it's growing pains. Software is not a perfect thing. Every mmo I have played at launch has had problems, some worse than others but in the long run most things get fixed. Almost all pc games I have played have problems at release , fps games , puzzle games you name it.

 

The real problem here is the I want it now mentality of people these days. Mmo's are a growing thing and believe it or not watching them grow and evolve is half the fun.

[Elocke]

You can't because they were both released in different markets with different expectations.

 

If you want to say that generally all MMO's that come out have problems, then fine. But don't try to justify Biowares failures by pointing out how other MMO's made mistakes at their launch, too

 

Why not? Ever hear the oft used saying "History repeats itself."?

 

Blizzard had never made an MMORPG like WoW before. Bioware had never made an MMORPG like SWTOR before. Expecting SWTOR to have everything WoW now has is just unrealistic. People are people and fallible, we aren't God as so many of you seem to think/expect with your product at launch.

 

I'm having more fun playing this at launch then I did WoW at launch. I remember the server load issues WoW had in that first year and times where there maintenance lasted 24+ hours and the loot lag, and no Raids, and classes so out of wack balance wise it was crazy. At the time though, I loved WoW and easily overlooked these issues because eventually they fixed them.

 

SWTOR has 1 or 2 glaring issues for me, ability delay and horrible FPS in warzones/high npc-player areas, but I can live with it because I know it will be addressed eventually.

[lordgracy]

It makes me laugh at the blind fanbois that like to compare this game to a game from 7 years ago. What other product on the present day consumer market competes with a simular product from 7 years ago?? LOLOLOLOLOLOL. How can people be this moronic?

 

And to clarify. Its not about the content people swtor has plenty for launch. ITS THE FEATURES. Rift had 90% of wows present day features at launch(and they quickly added the other 10% and then some)? Ya know why? Cause thats what they are competing against. Not features from 7 years ago.

Edited January 23, 2012 by lordgracy

[vekkth]

It makes me laugh at the blind fanbois that like to compare this game to a game from 7 years ago. What other product on the present day consumer market competes with a simular product from 7 years ago?? LOLOLOLOLOLOL. How can people be this moronic?

 

i love people who subscribe only to post on forums how much this game sucks even more.

[Akaidian]

Comparing this game in its infancy to a game made 7 years ago in its infancy is like saying if a new car company came out literally out of the blue and had a car the same size as say the honda civic, but had specifications of a car made in 1990's (worse mileage, safety, same price etc) that people would give it concessions and still buy it over a civic which has been refined. And thats retarded to think. People expect the entire industry to be able to learn from one companies mistakes, and they should. Edited January 24, 2012 by Akaidian

[iRoddy]

i love people who subscribe only to post on forums how much this game sucks even more.

 

I un subbed a while ago and my free month is finished. And guess what? I can still post.

 

TORTANIC!

 

--------------------------------- End of rine! Pl0zxxxx don't BANNU me!

[lordgracy]

i love people who subscribe only to post on forums how much this game sucks even more.

 

And I love people who magically derive statements from thin air. Where did I say this game sucks? I love this game but I think it lacks a ton of features that it should have launched with. I will patiently wait for them but Im not happy about thier lack of features.

[Akaidian]

i love people who subscribe only to post on forums how much this game sucks even more.

 

I love people who claim to know someones motives 100%. What if they simply like the SW theme, and other aspects of the game, but realize the game is pretty ****** from a product standpoint, and are okay admitting that, while still playing the game because there's nothing better (no other SW games) to play right now? Some people NEED a SW MMO to play, though I'm not one of them and BW has until my free 30 days are up to fix ****.

[Syrellaris]

I played WoW on release, and although it did have some bugs it didn't have nearly as many problems as SWTOR does. SWTOR problems include everything from light rays shooting through the world, becoming invincible in combat by dancing, glitching mana to have infinite healing, duping items in your mail box, all combat actions delayed by half a second, having high-res textures vanish, etc.

 

There is a difference between having some bugs and having a BROKEN, UNFINISHED GAME.

 

Wow was broken for nearly 3 years from the day it was released. They never ever could keep there servers up, lag free and so on. It crashed nearly every week when a large group of players did anything. Raids went broken for months, quests didnt get fixed until 3-4 months later and so on.

 

So yeah, SWtor might have problems and some of those problems are a big issue (performance) but compared to wow, there doing about just as good.

 

In short both had issues and they will get fixed. It just needs time and 4 weeks isnt enough time to fix big issues.

[Iskareot]

It's funny but Vanilla WoW had less players... no end game and pretty much was broken so badly you would not know it.

 

It was horrid in beta and was not ready... much worse shape then this game was come live day on the 20th.

 

Crap I think my server was off a whole day after launch. THEN later on through the week it would roll back all the time.

 

I remember there being people in it that had no idea what to do... there was less help and info on WHAT to do perse as well.

 

There was less guidance if you will.

 

Honestly to compare the two is wrong though, as things have changed. But by all means WoWs launch was really not so good.

[Barathos]

Oh god no. Inc 50 pages -.-

 

Hehe we're on page 10! Lets do dis!

[Iskareot]

I played WoW on release, and although it did have some bugs it didn't have nearly as many problems as SWTOR does. SWTOR problems include everything from light rays shooting through the world, becoming invincible in combat by dancing, glitching mana to have infinite healing, duping items in your mail box, all combat actions delayed by half a second, having high-res textures vanish, etc.

 

There is a difference between having some bugs and having a BROKEN, UNFINISHED GAME.

 

Wait.. what... lol

 

What WoW did you play? lol

 

Because I was stuck numerous times and then combat was a balance wreck lol.

 

Holy crap... I dont know what WoW you played...

 

Hell there was some patches the server was offline all day... ALL DAY... lol

 

I even got stuck once in combat and could not get out of it... lol had to have a CSR get control of the toon because it would not stop. Going offline didnt work nothing... lol it was crazy.

[PjPablo]

For those that said WOW was broken and unplayable after launch please explain to me how its subs went up SEVENFOLD in the first 90 days. If we are going to bash let's be honest. Other than lag and server stability issues on some servers it was fine.

 

For the record I like both games and have basically made the switch to TOR. I logged into WOW the other day and it just looked 'ugly' to me. BUT that doesn't mean it wasn't a good game for all those years.

Edited January 23, 2012 by PjPablo

[Aaluria]

You can't because they were both released in different markets with different expectations.

 

If you want to say that generally all MMO's that come out have problems, then fine. But don't try to justify Biowares failures by pointing out how other MMO's made mistakes at their launch, too

 

This is rather unfair to say don't you think? As there was a huge thread comparing WoW to this game and people were pointing out the virtures of Blizzard. I have played WoW since before it's release and YES they had some major problems and things that were missing when the launched their game. I have played beta's and releases of many other MMO's and they all share that same characteristic. The whole point being is that all MMO's have done this. These types of games are evolving, they are a different genre than FPS's, single player etc. With each of these games there are different criteria for releasing.

[Syrellaris]

For those that said WOW was broken and unplayable after launch please explain to me how its subs went up SEVENFOLD in the first 90 days. If we are going to bash let's me honest. Other than lag and server stability issues on some servers it was fine.

 

For the record I like both games and have basically made the switch to TOR. I logged into WOW the other day and it just looked 'ugly' to me. BUT that doesn't mean it wasn't a good game for all those years.

 

Simple. Marketing and a really well worked out casual approach of various game mechanics that older MMO's invented. In short people could come in, play 1 hour and saw big progress. Thats the way it still is with wow these days and thats the way it was in vanilla.

 

But the first month or 6 of WoW was about the same as ToR is right now. IT had broken content, it had performance issues(albeit less grave then SwTor atm) and it had no real pvp other then some World PvP near SouthShore.

 

They however had major issues with keeping there servers up and running and lag free. That wasnt fixed for nearly 1-3 years.

[Barathos]

This is rather unfair to say don't you think? As there was a huge thread comparing WoW to this game and people were pointing out the virtures of Blizzard. I have played WoW since before it's release and YES they had some major problems and things that were missing when the launched their game. I have played beta's and releases of many other MMO's and they all share that same characteristic. The whole point being is that all MMO's have done this. These types of games are evolving, they are a different genre than FPS's, single player etc. With each of these games there are different criteria for releasing.

 

He does have a point, though. People are expecting new MMOs that come out to have features that previous MMOs have.

 

When WoW came out, soloability was one of the most amazing things since cotton candy. You could get started armor EASILY. You didn't need to sift through tons and tons of info on the internet just to figure out how to get gear/spells/where to level, etc.

 

I get what you're saying, and agree with you, but the guy you quoted does have a pretty good point.

[Fezzhan]

 

My point is most of you people complaining have no idea what you're talking about when you compare WoW to SWTOR.

 

That is the main point. In any case you cant compare a 8 years old game that was one of the first MMO and TOR.

As the Ancient Romas said: "cui prodest?"

Just lets go to play if you enjoy or unsubrisibe is you dont.

Stop with these useless threads.

Btw actually im playin both and enjoyin both.