Why make excuses For MMO's at launch?

[Tronics]

BUT if people had a little understanding of how these games are created, then the forums may not be as bad as they are.

 

I have never been a waiter, but I can tell you the difference between great service and when to call the manager/owner.

 

I do not know how to be a head chef at a 5 star restaurant, but I do know what to expect for the price of a 5 star restaurant.

 

I do not have an MD, but I do know when I am not receiving the best medical treatment I can afford.

 

 

Customers do not need to 'know how to do better', to evaluate the quality of a product, or a service. We see it all the time in the real world.

 

 

So no, someone does not need to know how to develope an MMORPG before they are allowed to criticize it.

[Brosephiine]

I have never been a waiter, but I can tell you the difference between great service and when to call the manager/owner.

 

I do not know how to be a head chef at a 5 star restaurant, but I do know what to expect for the price of a 5 star restaurant.

 

I do not have an MD, but I do know when I am not receiving the best medical treatment I can afford.

 

 

Customers do not need to 'know how to do better', to evaluate the quality of a product, or a service. We see it all the time in the real world.

 

 

So no, someone does not need to know how to develope an MMORPG before they are allowed to criticize it.

Except a lot of the times their complaints are about expediency and how the game should be perfect at launch, which they wouldn't complain about if they knew the process.

 

Honestly, my only issue is that people do not do their research. They ask these companies for more and more and FASTER dammit, you're being lazy! But that's not the case and it's not always possible.

 

What truly irks me is people complaining about the development process when their words alone easily give away that they know nothing of the actual process. If you're not satisfied, fine. By all means, let the company know! But if you don't actually know the process, don't criticize the process.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Brosephiine

[Loekii]

BUT if people had a little understanding of how these games are created, then the forums may not be as bad as they are.

Most of the criticism I have seen, demonstrates an understanding how games are made -- because they often cite existing games as examples.

 

 

On the contrary, I see a lot of defense of Mythic posts, that cite nothing than a theory that it cannot be done --- often followed by a critic citing a game that did it before.

 

Basically, imo, it is 'straw-manning' to stereotype a critic as someone that is clueless about MMORPGs, especially in 2012, when there are so many people that have experienced the development process and/or beta tested other games.

 

[MikeMonger]

And that's the argument I made, multiple times actually,

 

I'm not addressing those arguments. I'm addressing your erroneous assertion that "SWTOR" had no unplanned outages because hardware is better".

 

there is a limit to bugs however, at some point you can have too many or too serious bugs.

 

And around and around we go. That is simply the way things ARE with MMOs post launch. It's been the case with every one ever released. Why? Because no beta test group is as large as the initial subscriber base, and therefore, more bugs get discovered.

 

You don't remember the pre virtual memory days when we had to write programs knowing how much ram a machine would have,

 

I do remember those days. Know what I recall? That there weren't ANY applications anywhere NEAR as complex as a WoW or a SWTOR being built on those systems.

 

So...what's your point?

 

things in all aspects are getting easier for programmers hardware wise. You can't deny that.

 

Sure they are. That STILL doesn't change the FACT that bad calls seem to be what you want "hardware failure" to be.

 

Know what hardware failure is? It's when a server bursts into flames. I've seen it. It ain't pretty.

 

And I didn't make any claim that poor hardware was responsible for SWTORs downtimes,

 

You just keep claiming that hardware is responsible for more then a negligible amount of downtime.

 

Just so you know, when an issue can be fixed with a software patch, that means it's SOFTWARE related. When an issue needs to be fixed by replacing hardware, it's HARDWARE related.

 

Now...

 

How are 99.9% of server issues resolved?

 

I stated that mmos of the past 2004 and earlier which this game is usually being compared to for some unexplainable reason, could ve had or had those issues.

 

So you're saying that if WoW had come out in 2011, the days and days of unexpected server downtime that were resolved with software patches wouldn't have happened because the hardware is better.

 

Then you turn around and claim to be an application developer. That's the funny part.

 

 

As for dates, heck if I remember, was prolly in the morning some day, like I said they might ve made a post on the forum about it being a downtime afterwards as well.

 

So they happened, but you have no idea when.

 

I see.

 

But I do recall seeing one or two downtimes with no warnings, were they crashes? No idea, but they could ve been.

 

I think you want to equate emergency patches with downtime. Just so you know, downtime means that you can't log in. It doesn't mean you get an unexpected patch before you log in.

Edited January 22, 2012 by MikeMonger

[Kunra]

Epic thread.

[Barathos]

I have never been a waiter, but I can tell you the difference between great service and when to call the manager/owner.

 

I do not know how to be a head chef at a 5 star restaurant, but I do know what to expect for the price of a 5 star restaurant.

 

I do not have an MD, but I do know when I am not receiving the best medical treatment I can afford.

 

 

Customers do not need to 'know how to do better', to evaluate the quality of a product, or a service. We see it all the time in the real world.

 

 

So no, someone does not need to know how to develope an MMORPG before they are allowed to criticize it.

 

I ... don't know what to say...

 

Can I have your autograph?

[Tronics]

Being at other game launches doesn't constitute a basic understanding of a games creation and what it takes to get a game off the ground, I don't confess to either. My only knowledge is that I have been around from the zx80 and have seen how fare gaming has come and Appreciate what we have now compared to back then, so have alot more patients then most young people today.

 

 

Most of the criticism I have seen, demonstrates an understanding how games are made -- because they often cite existing games as examples.

 

 

On the contrary, I see a lot of defense of Mythic posts, that cite nothing than a theory that it cannot be done --- often followed by a critic citing a game that did it before.

 

Basically, imo, it is 'straw-manning' to stereotype a critic as someone that is clueless about MMORPGs, especially in 2012, when there are so many people that have experienced the development process and/or beta tested other games.

 

[MikeMonger]

I have never been a waiter, but I can tell you the difference between great service and when to call the manager/owner.

 

I do not know how to be a head chef at a 5 star restaurant, but I do know what to expect for the price of a 5 star restaurant.

 

I do not have an MD, but I do know when I am not receiving the best medical treatment I can afford.

 

 

Customers do not need to 'know how to do better', to evaluate the quality of a product, or a service. We see it all the time in the real world.

 

 

So no, someone does not need to know how to develope an MMORPG before they are allowed to criticize it.

 

Criticize all you'd like. What I don't understand are the people who just keep doing it day after day after day after day.

 

If I think a game sucks that bad, I just don't play it anymore. I bought Stronghold 3. It was a bug wridden mess. I stopped playing it. I didn't haunt the Stronghold 3 forums for days on end complaining about it.

[Brosephiine]

Being at other game launches doesn't constitute a basic understanding of a games creation and what it takes to get a game off the ground, I don't confess to either. My only knowledge is that I have been around from the zx80 and have seen how fare gaming has come and Appreciate what we have now compared to back then, so have alot more patients then most young people today.

 

Quoted for truth.

 

Though my understanding comes from studying game design itself.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Brosephiine

[Tronics]

I personally don't like the moaning, I'd rather people talk about game issues in a reasonable manner, you don't need to moan or argue to have a good debate, I also don't want to see people leave unless they have no intentions of playing swtor and are purely here to cause hassle. Then I would agree with you. But other then that debates are good as long as we all remeber we want they same outcome, an enjoyable game. Otherwise it's not worth my or your time. After all we all game for fun and relaxation;)

 

OK, I see lot of people moaning and gowning just because the can. Now here is the way I see it, If you hate the game so much quit playing it. Click on the MY ACCOUNT by your name and cancel your subscription.

[Brosephiine]

...After all we all game for fun and relaxation;)

 

 

True games serve no practical purpose beyond that of satisfying the urge (or instinct) people have to "play."

 

One of my favorite quotes from my Game History professor. :]

[Tronics]

True and no matter how old you are, we're all kids at heart;)

 

 

True games serve no practical purpose beyond that of satisfying the urge (or instinct) people have to "play."

 

One of my favorite quotes from my Game History professor. :]

[quantumsheep]

Hey read your post.

long term wow player here as is my wife (pally tank b/elf [me] priest healer b/elf [wife] and hopefully long term SWTOR players as well....sith warrtior Juggernaut tank [wife] Sith Inquisitor Sorcerer healer [me] both level 33 atm.

We absoluteley love playing as a team and are in the unique position that as we play in the same room games like wow and now SWTOR are perfect for us. We can communicate effectively and in wow i trust no-one else but my wife as healer never healed in wow but am trying healing for first time here and loving it.

So obviously as we both work and are mature adults (both in our 40,s) {hope they let us play in the nursing home when we get there lol} we are able to afford to play both games. Just dividing time between the two is being worked out. (raid schedules to consider)

always when I see posts like this I try to play devil's advocate meaning as wow players (since just after launch and SWTOR from launch). I have no blinkers on when it comes to my passion that is wow and also my new passion mark 2 that is Star wars. Is this game bugged hellz yeah but as with any game like this they can never be free of them.

In wow we play for fun yes, but also are very competitive in pvp and serious about our endgame as well.

We discovered this game started playing in the last 2 beta tests, got ega (5 days each too) and have been playing since launch.

To us we really don't know what the fuss is all about we play this because it gives us what wow doesn't a sort of mmo console game with co-op/mulitplayer (we are in a guild so have plenty of guildies to do content with) and a lot of dlc to come.

we like the stories, the questing a lot of things actually.

So we have this for fun and wow is for our hardcore fix so to speak.

Sorry this is a bit long (im old so forgive me waffling on) my point is this when i see posts like this I try to bring some balance to the conversation (there are always 2 sides to a story)

Yes this game has bugs and issues but so does our beloved wow

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3056495855

There i am a wow player and I admit my game isnt perfect and bug free but neither is this one. I am sure both companies are working hard to resolve their respective issues to keep their players happy. Blizzard is and from what I have seen so far, so are Bioware

May we enjoy whatever it is we like to do

 

I just wanted to quote that as it was an absolute joy to read. Thanks for taking the time

 

@Brosphilne and MikeMonger - enjoyed your posts as well - thanks!

 

Also, in general, this has been one of the less hysterical threads on this forum, and I welcome that!

 

Loekii in particular has been extremely civil and polite, and though I disagree with a lot of what you say, sir, I do not find your demeanour disagreeable

 

Game development is a constant resource struggle, be it time, money or both.

 

I was like you guys, seriously. I'm old enough to remember playing PONG, and I figured my 'years of experience' would be a huge asset to game companies.

 

And you know, experience playing games certainly helps!

 

But when I finally got into a company as a games designer, the biggest and hardest wake-up call was that all those great ideas for features we had went out the window if we didn't have enough time to implement them.

 

Because time spent on an idea/feature = money spent, and we had budgets and deadlines to deal with.

 

Things got cut from the games, or weren't fully realised, and that was frustrating as hell, believe me.

 

The great thing about MMOs, and it's in their DNA, is that they are constantly evolving. Bugs will get fixed. Content will be added. It just (theoretically) keeps expanding, and hopefully improving!

 

Nowadays, I make my own games for iPhone, iPad and Mac (search for 'Quantum Sheep' on itunes if you like!).

 

I find that the opinions of my players (I hate the word 'customer' - I prefer to think of them as 'friends' ) are paramount in my mind when creating something and selling it.

 

My job, as a designer of games, is to give people fun experiences.

 

If I can do that for the *majority* of players, then I've done a good job. Because let's face it, hard as I try, I will never please everyone!

 

Most importantly, any bugs (and there are always some, no matter how hard and long you play-test a game) are addressed as soon as possible.

 

These players are people. And they have expectations. Sometimes these expectations are unrealistic and being a one-man band, I can't implement them.

 

Other times a 'bug' or feature is working as intended, and the player is actually just expressing an opinion. If people add requests for features, and if I can do it and won't break the game, I do my best to include it.

 

However, people who claim that having years of MMO games playing experience and given the budget of this game would make something far better… well, as I mentioned, from experience, that's not how it works.

 

I've made games on multiple platforms. I do it now as my own business (and *still* have to fight the time/money resource battle!). I've even made a (really bad) MMO (we had about 200 times less budget than SWTOR, 20 people in the company and a year to make it!)

 

People expecting a game, any game, to release with no bugs is unrealistic. Sorry, it just is. And in a game this huge and complex, I'm actually in awe of how stable and playable and downright *fun* the game is right now, even with the huge budget behind it and the expectations from that.

 

tl;dr: Software will always have bugs in it, temper your expectations, have fun

 

Cheers!

 

QS

Edited January 22, 2012 by quantumsheep

[Jswizzle]

I don't think anyone has said you aren't allowed to criticize unless you are a developer. It's the issues people bring up that make zero sense. Saying the game engine "sucks" with no insight or experience from the developers side can't be considered valid.

 

You can't compare this to some daily routine of going out to eat, or going to the doctor. This is like you telling the doctor he is doing it wrong, when you have no clue.

[Monoth]

Guess thats because consoles now have access to the internet, were as one stage they didn't.

 

I think it's more of the fact that games are becoming way more complicated, games like Duck Hunt were easy to program where the new games have so much going on with realistic graphics and AI that it's a lot harder to make the perfect non-buggy game..

 

With PC's it's 10x's worse due to so many different hardware configurations....

 

As games continue to push the envelope I don't see anything changing anytime soon...

 

Anyways not making excuses for buggy games.. just playing Devils Advocate...

[radersdad]

While travelling in the Second and Third worlds I noticed power outages were a fairly common occurrence. I wondered why my hosts/friends/coworkers did not seem in the least upset or complain about it. They were conditioned to expect it, and more importantly, accept it.

 

Now you have a bunch of First worlders buying a hyped MMO game. they are conditioned to expect major components to be present and work correctly. When they don't, they complain. A few biodrone fanbois try to shout them down saying "when I lived in Albania we had power outages all the time!"

 

That isn't going to work on the average modern First world game consumer any more than daily power outages would. Don't blame the consumer; modern society has created them and companies are generally astute enough to deal with them. Hence the crux of the problem in ToR.

 

Mediocre CS and limited info from devs has irritated Mr and Mrs average game consumer. When they call the power company saying "my power is out" they don't want to be put on hold for days/weeks, they want timely feedback and gentle reassurance. Biodrones screaming "live by candlelight!" is not going to satisfy them. If BW was the only game in town maybe, but competition in the marketplace is too tough these days and I fear those subs/dollars/gaming hours will be going somewhere else.

 

Never have the chance to make a second first impression, at least until the day you F2P I guess.

[Tannhaeuser]

Does not matter what excuses are going to be said in this thread. I bought this game for fun

 

I did the same thing .. maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm having fun right now .. what is wrong with me?

[Mikkeos]

What *flicker* *Loadingscreen* *flicker* *flicker* is *Loadingscreen* *flicker*

 

I expected a more stable engine for that amount of money, especially since I had way less problems and a smoother game in the beta.

[Krummwalker]

I just wanted to quote that as it was an absolute joy to read. Thanks for taking the time

 

@Brosphilne and MikeMonger - enjoyed your posts as well - thanks!

 

Also, in general, this has been one of the less hysterical threads on this forum, and I welcome that!

 

Loekii in particular has been extremely civil and polite, and though I disagree with a lot of what you say, sir, I do not find your demeanour disagreeable

 

Game development is a constant resource struggle, be it time, money or both.

 

I was like you guys, seriously. I'm old enough to remember playing PONG, and I figured my 'years of experience' would be a huge asset to game companies.

 

And you know, experience playing games certainly helps!

 

But when I finally got into a company as a games designer, the biggest and hardest wake-up call was that all those great ideas for features we had went out the window if we didn't have enough time to implement them.

 

Because time spent on an idea/feature = money spent, and we had budgets and deadlines to deal with.

 

Things got cut from the games, or weren't fully realised, and that was frustrating as hell, believe me.

 

The great thing about MMOs, and it's in their DNA, is that they are constantly evolving. Bugs will get fixed. Content will be added. It just (theoretically) keeps expanding, and hopefully improving!

 

Nowadays, I make my own games for iPhone, iPad and Mac (search for 'Quantum Sheep' on itunes if you like!).

 

I find that the opinions of my players (I hate the word 'customer' - I prefer to think of them as 'friends' ) are paramount in my mind when creating something and selling it.

 

My job, as a designer of games, is to give people fun experiences.

 

If I can do that for the *majority* of players, then I've done a good job. Because let's face it, hard as I try, I will never please everyone!

 

Most importantly, any bugs (and there are always some, no matter how hard and long you play-test a game) are addressed as soon as possible.

 

These players are people. And they have expectations. Sometimes these expectations are unrealistic and being a one-man band, I can't implement them.

 

Other times a 'bug' or feature is working as intended, and the player is actually just expressing an opinion. If people add requests for features, and if I can do it and won't break the game, I do my best to include it.

 

However, people who claim that having years of MMO games playing experience and given the budget of this game would make something far better… well, as I mentioned, from experience, that's not how it works.

 

I've made games on multiple platforms. I do it now as my own business (and *still* have to fight the time/money resource battle!). I've even made a (really bad) MMO (we had about 200 times less budget than SWTOR, 20 people in the company and a year to make it!)

 

People expecting a game, any game, to release with no bugs is unrealistic. Sorry, it just is. And in a game this huge and complex, I'm actually in awe of how stable and playable and downright *fun* the game is right now, even with the huge budget behind it and the expectations from that.

 

tl;dr: Software will always have bugs in it, temper your expectations, have fun

 

Cheers!

 

QS

 

Thank you!

 

Honestly, thank you for this post, maybe this will finally open some peoples eyes to reality.

People need to understand that things are not as black and white as they think they are.

[Careus]

I'll make this quick. Humans arent perfect. Why should the things we make / build / program / think of / poop out be perfect? Now ignoring or delaying an issue makes that "human" seem like a moron but bioware took care of the illum issue very fast. People expect too much sometimes; be grateful for how quickly changes and updates are coming out.

[Zhiroc]

If you think people are making excuses here, you should have been there for just about all the others I've played, from Earth and Beyond, to Eve, to Matrix Online, etc., etc.

 

Believe me, an order of magnitude worse...

 

Lag so bad that people regularly died in combat, and when you moved, you "rubber-banded" because the client and server disagreed as to your position, then sync'ed up and your position changed.

 

Eve had a DB corruption issue more than once where about a day of achievements were wiped out when they had to rollback.

 

Eve also had this tendency to not let you login again for hours after a disconnect/CTD, or maybe even until the next downtime, which still occurs DAILY.

 

Most games were rife with CTDs, server crashes, even crashing your computer. It was only a beta (if you can call it that), but Stargate Worlds would blue-screen me more often than not.

 

MxO probably wins the award for the most bugged quests. I hit them constantly.

 

This is why I consider SWTOR's launch to be the best I've ever seen.

[Brosephiine]

I just wanted to quote that as it was an absolute joy to read. Thanks for taking the time

 

@Brosphilne and MikeMonger - enjoyed your posts as well - thanks!

 

 

Why thank you!

 

Also, I sent you a private message, hope you don't mind. I felt what I had to say was better said privately.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Brosephiine

[radersdad]

If people add requests for features, and if I can do it and won't break the game, I do my best to include it.

 

Wish you were Lead Dev on this team, we might have some of those features whose absence is causing folks to leave. Luddites aren't going to /ragequit because Recount or Healbot are in game (okay, maybe a few of the craziest ones will) but a lot of the the competent/talented raiders I need for my ops teams will probably move on to something else. Too many alternatives in the market these days.

[Eternalnow]

I'd say that part of it is fans unwilling to accept that the game/developer they love has/made mistakes. The other part of it is that SWTOR needed to come out at some point, and holding it back to add in modern features wasn't in the cards, especially not for those looking to line their pockets during the holidays.

 

You really can't argue that a very old game came out in a similar way to a 2011 game, that excuse is lame and just doesn't cut it. As many have said before, when a new product is launched you expect it to have the most up-to-date features; like expecting a new, expensive smartphone to feature all the current smartphone staples, or say a new PC containing all the current PC staples. You wouldn't buy a laptop that didn't have WI-FI or a touchpad....or maybe you would:P

 

I wholeheartedly agree that Bioware should have taken stock of what the current MMOs were offering and beefed up their product with said features, like freedom to customize UI, combat logs, etc. What we got is an amazing game, no doubt, but there really is no excuse for missing essential features. Considering the game took years to develop adds insult to injury as they most assuredly had time to implement these standards.

 

Fear not though, these features are coming so these arguments are moot.

[Brosephiine]

I'd say that part of it is fans unwilling to accept that the game/developer they love has/made mistakes. The other part of it is that SWTOR needed to come out at some point, and holding it back to add in modern features wasn't in the cards, especially not for those looking to line their pockets during the holidays.

 

You really can't argue that a very old game came out in a similar way to a 2011 game, that excuse is lame and just doesn't cut it. As many have said before, when a new product is launched you expect it to have the most up-to-date features; like expecting a new, expensive smartphone to feature all the current smartphone staples, or say a new PC containing all the current PC staples. You wouldn't buy a laptop that didn't have WI-FI or a touchpad....or maybe you would:P

 

I wholeheartedly agree that Bioware should have taken stock of what the current MMOs were offering and beefed up their product with said features, like freedom to customize UI, combat logs, etc. What we got is an amazing game, no doubt, but there really is no excuse for missing essential features. Considering the game took years to develop adds insult to injury as they most assuredly had time to implement these standards.

 

Fear not though, these features are coming so these arguments are moot.

 

Well, I would argue that point about them assuredly having the time simply because it took years to develop. The development process is not solely programming. Lots of work and time went into the game long before they started actually making it. And considering everything in this game, it is very large scale. I assume they wanted a working game with as few bugs as possible to launch around the holidays and decided that things like a customized UI could wait a patch or three. Which could be simply because corporate pushed them to launch it sooner, or because they underestimated how badly it was wanted.

 

But I do agree, the point is technically moot as it'll get fixed eventually.