Dual Spec...when?

[Malastare]

You'd have a point if you weren't asking me to take it on faith that the way people are using the respec feature isn't intended. If it really wasn't intended, there'd be a hard cap on the amount of times you could respec.

 

I'd have thought this was already obvious. What other motivation would you see behind increasing costs for successive respecs? I can see only two conclusions:

 

1. Bioware thinks that respecs will earn you more cash, so they increase the cost as a credit-sink
   
2. They didn't intend you to use it repeatedly, so they punish you (provide a negative incentive) for using it often
   

 

The only other argument is "They're dumb and did it randomly". If that is the case, then we're outside logic and nothing anyone says can be taken to mean anything at all. So, from the two above options, I only see the second as viable. As respec'ing surely can improve your ability to play different content, you could get more cash, but the increase would not be a geometric/logarithmic increase with each respec. That leaves me with only the second option: that the cost is meant to be a deterrent and that deterrents are used to discourage play styles that players were not intended to use repeatedly.

 

Feel free to suggest your own evaluation.

 

Now you're asking me to take your word for it that those who want a dual spec feature added are a minority.

 

I'll reiterate my questions from earlier in the thread:

The [question] is simple then: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game are asking for dual-spec?

 

Or here's an easier version: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game even know what dual-spec is?

 

Simpler again: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game know what the term "spec" means?

 

For the record, I have no problem with bridging the gap between pve and pvp content as it relates to talent specs. Except for the fact that you've got to dumb down one or the other in order to do so.

 

I rarely see people use the term "dumb down" in a way that is not biased with prejudice and elitism.

 

That said: I won't say this is easy. The Tank/Medic/DPS system pretty much dooms you to this result. If you allow the game to step away from that, the situation becomes easier to manage. Of course, that brings in new problems and requires your player base to learn to play a game that isn't Tank/Medic/DPS. I've elaborated on this before, but the quick version is this: Tanking was an illogical addition to PvE (ordinary RPG) and Medics are a utility class. Both are designed for groups. Alone, Medics are weak in PvP by design and Tanks are weak in PvP to keep them from being immortal and pointless in groups against anyone with a brain (No, I'm not going to attack you just because you Taunted me).

 

Keeping the Tank/Medic/DPS system leaves less room to adjust, but I don't think it would be impossible. You'd still be able to make specs that are worthless in PvP, but you're never going to find a system that doesn't allow idiots to make bad decisions.

 

In thinking about it, I've actually realized that I'd be okay (not happy, but okay) with another option: Dual-spec but no respec. Choices still have consequence. You get your PvE and PvP specs. You can choose your spec somewhere convenient (but not at the drop of a hat). Yeah, it violates my no-respec ideals, but I actually find the trivial respec to be the greater crime against RPGs. At least dual-spec/no-respec forces people to live with their choices.

[Draylore]

The biggest problem to lack of dual spec is group composition. In 16-mans you only need 2 tanks, but if those 16 people want to break apart and do HM flashpoints... guess what? You're now 2 tanks short and have to pug or make people respec.

 

That's annoying. Dual-spec'ers like tanks already have to gear up twice, isn't that penalty enough?

 

Btw, I play a Marauder so this isn't about me, it's about the makeup of Operations versus Flashpoints for guilds.

 

^^ This ^^.

 

This is a problem that every MMO faces because they all continue to use the 'holy trinity' design for content......SWTOR is no different.....in fact it might be even worse considering the size of groups and how everything seems to be one big DPS check after another...where not having tank = fail or having one too many tanks also = fail.

 

This is also what will eventually lead to the flood of QQ threads on these forums when LFD/Dungeon Finder is added and people(i.e DPS) find themselves in LONG queue times crying about the lack of tanks.

[DaxRendar]

Hi there Malastare,

 

I do appreciate the thought you have taken in articulating your position, but I do have some responses for you.

 

1. Bioware thinks that respecs will earn you more cash, so they increase the cost as a credit-sink
   
2. They didn't intend you to use it repeatedly, so they punish you (provide a negative incentive) for using it often
   

 

That leaves me with only the second option: that the cost is meant to be a deterrent and that deterrents are used to discourage play styles that players were not intended to use repeatedly.

 

Except that the Respec costs do reset weekly. So I guess that means your revised opinion is that BioWare believes that people should be able change their Specs once or twice a week?

 

I'll reiterate my questions from earlier in the thread:

The [question] is simple then: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game are asking for dual-spec?

 

Or here's an easier version: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game even know what dual-spec is?

 

Simpler again: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game know what the term "spec" means?

 

This is a fallacious argument, because you are assuming that anyone who doesn't know what a Respec is would automatically be against Dual Spec.

 

An honest approach to this is whether or not you believe that among people who have strong opinions on the issue there are more people in favor or against Respecs (and I think you already know the answer to that )

 

 

That said: I won't say this is easy. The Tank/Medic/DPS system pretty much dooms you to this result. If you allow the game to step away from that, the situation becomes easier to manage. Of course, that brings in new problems and requires your player base to learn to play a game that isn't Tank/Medic/DPS. I've elaborated on this before, but the quick version is this: Tanking was an illogical addition to PvE (ordinary RPG) and Medics are a utility class. Both are designed for groups. Alone, Medics are weak in PvP by design and Tanks are weak in PvP to keep them from being immortal and pointless in groups against anyone with a brain (No, I'm not going to attack you just because you Taunted me).

 

Keeping the Tank/Medic/DPS system leaves less room to adjust, but I don't think it would be impossible. You'd still be able to make specs that are worthless in PvP, but you're never going to find a system that doesn't allow idiots to make bad decisions.

 

I'd love it if BioWare hadn't chosen to make a "Holy Trinity" game but they did. I even applaud them for trying to make Tanking abilities (Taunt and Guard) useful in PvP (not saying they really succeeded though ). I also find it far more likely for BioWare to implement Dual Specs into the game than to completely recreate all the ACs and associated game mechanics to match something closer to what Guild Wars 2 is doing.

 

In thinking about it, I've actually realized that I'd be okay (not happy, but okay) with another option: Dual-spec but no respec. Choices still have consequence. You get your PvE and PvP specs. You can choose your spec somewhere convenient (but not at the drop of a hat). Yeah, it violates my no-respec ideals, but I actually find the trivial respec to be the greater crime against RPGs. At least dual-spec/no-respec forces people to live with their choices.

 

I proposed something similar to this (I don't believe in removing Respecs, but with Dual Spec they can keep the costs of doing so relatively high).

 

There is still one thing that your (and the Anti-Dual-Spec) position fails to address:

 

-Adding Dual Spec to the game in no way impacts your playstyle

-Keeping it out of the game definitely impacts others playstyles and long-term enjoyment

 

Finally, an MMO is a game that we currently pay a monthly fee to play, and you have to acknowledge that one of the foundational pillars of an MMORPG is Community. Your desire for virtually no Respecs whatsoever really falls short in a game where people are limited to 8 Character Slots per Server and 40 Character Slots total. You can try (and I have) endless combinations of Character Builds in games like Oblivion, but you can't do that here in a game that BioWare wants me to keep playing for years.

 

Dual Spec is a practical solution to some of the problems and limitations in the game. You might not like it, but I hope you can appreciate that fact.

Edited January 23, 2012 by DaxRendar

[PessimiStick]

I'll reiterate my questions from earlier in the thread:

The [question] is simple then: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game are asking for dual-spec?

 

Or here's an easier version: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game even know what dual-spec is?

 

Simpler again: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game know what the term "spec" means?

I don't know a single person in WoW that didn't have dual-spec on their mains, and almost everyone had it on every alt the moment it was available. Similarly for Rift, everyone in my guild had 5 specs, and I don't know anyone that didn't have at least 3 on alts.

 

It's a much, much more widespread feature than you seem to think, especially for anyone that PvPs, or anyone that plays a hybrid class (which is everything sans Marauder/Sniper in this game).

Edited January 23, 2012 by PessimiStick

[orion_eb]

There is still one thing that your (and the Anti-Dual-Spec) position fails to address:

 

-Adding Dual Spec to the game in no way impacts your playstyle

-Keeping it out of the game definitely impacts others playstyles and long-term enjoyment.

 

This right here is the only argument needed. We're not asking for dual advanced classes...just the ability to swap between 2 specs within the AC. Many, many times we've had a healer drop mid run or a tank DC and in other MMOs a dual spec saved the day.

[Muckbeast]

The lack of dual spec is pretty brutal honestly.

 

It isn't even the cost. It is the sheer massive inconvenience of having to change all the time and make sure you spend every single point correctly.

 

Then setting up all your bars AGAIN.

[CyberData]

Let's get ability delay fixed for pvp before we start asking for dual spec. What's the point in switching from healing to dps when my abilities don't fire in time-sensitive situations?

[HogtownDaddy]

Let's get ability delay fixed for pvp before we start asking for dual spec. What's the point in switching from healing to dps when my abilities don't fire in time-sensitive situations?

 

They have more than one team of programmers. Since when could companies only do one thing at one time?

[DaxRendar]

Let's get ability delay fixed for pvp before we start asking for dual spec. What's the point in switching from healing to dps when my abilities don't fire in time-sensitive situations?

 

Yes, but they are already working on Ability Delay. Actively even.

 

As they get Ability Delay resolved (and more and more of the playerbase reaches max level) Warzones, Flashpoints, and Operations are going to be how many people spend their time playing - and it would be darn nice if when that happens we can easily and quickly form groups or queue up for PvP without having to Respec and redo all our bars first

[MortisMortavius]

Are people seriously saying we shouldn't have dual specs? Really?

 

I bet if I posted we should have armor sets there would be idiots saying "in real life you should have to put on each piece of gear, you're not hardcore enough" ...

 

Man, the ignorance of some people is astounding...

[CygnisJunior]

I'd rather the answer be "never".

 

Learn to take some ownership and responsibility for your choices. If you want to treat the game like a sport, then get better at it by getting better, not by using a crutch. Prove that you're actually good by being good with a non-optimum build. If you want to PvP, optimize for PvP and work harder at PvE. If you want to PvE.... figure it out. Or --and I know this is shocking-- pick a balance somewhere in between, and let your "skill" fill in the things you've lost.

 

What's the point of it being an RPG if you swap your stats, abilities, class, and gear every twenty minutes like TF2 or some other FPS?

 

There is a limit to how far "skill" will take you in an operations setting. If I spec half way between PvP and PvE as a tank, the PvE tank right next to me will take ~5-10% less damage than me, period. It's not like I can somehow make that up by dodging bosses attacks myself or something. The dedicated pve tank wins out, and I never get to play.

[Matte_Black]

Except that the Respec costs do reset weekly. So I guess that means your revised opinion is that BioWare believes that people should be able change their Specs once or twice a week?

 

They set the rate of respecs on a scale roughly equal to typical patching schedules. Slow enough to prevent toggling between builds but, fast enough to adjust to rules changes that impact your build.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Matte_Black

[revelzdevelz]

this game needs alot. =P

[Anzel]

I should be able to change my spec whenever I want to. They are my characters. I paid for them. It's nobody's business what my spec is or how many times I've changed it.

[Lyability]

No reason for dual spec when it resets the amount daily..

 

Wow, you gotta be dumber than a box of rocks.

[Nozybidaj]

Are people seriously saying we shouldn't have dual specs? Really?

 

I bet if I posted we should have armor sets there would be idiots saying "in real life you should have to put on each piece of gear, you're not hardcore enough" ...

 

Man, the ignorance of some people is astounding...

 

This is pretty much what I was thinking reading the thread. Not having dual specs in this day is pretty silly honestly. Its such an obviously needed and wanted feature, just one more to add to the list of missing features at launch I suppose.

[Yummymango]

What in the world does being casual have to do with wanting Dual spec? You think it's hardcore to respec?

 

"Yo brah, I respec'd so hard core last night that the other faction didn't even see it coming. It was so hardcore you should have seen it. I had to like, go to a vendor in my own factions city! I'm so hardcore it hurts."

 

 

There are no words...

 

hahaha love it

 

I also don't understand how having a dual spec is bad/wrong/destroys the game?

I still change it when needed. Dual spec is a convenience. If someone thinks that not having dual spec makes you hardcore, just keep 1 spec and re-spec by traditional method even when dual spec is incorporated.

[Anzel]

Lots of demonizing going on in this thread. It's quite entertaining.

 

Why not add a dual spec option, and those who are against it can just stick with their single spec?

 

"But in the early days, we don't have dual spec nonsense!" Ok, then don't use the feature when it comes out.

 

As a non force user, it's called changing your equipment loadout to fit the mission. As a force user, it's even easier to justify as you call on the force to do different things in order to help your team.

 

As for "I AM HARDCORE!!!!!!!!" crowd, well you can stay hardcore and brag about being hardcore with your single spec. It's not taking away anything from you. You can still be as hardcore as you want.

 

You can be hardcore and not level with a companion.

You can be hardcore and treat any death as a permanent death.

You can be the best hardcore and treat any death as an account death, meaning you close that account and then pay Bioware another 59.99 to create another account with a new character. That's hardcore and chicks dig it.

 

When did "hardcore" replace "l33t"? Did I miss something? I'm a bit older... but I don't get it. We're all sitting at home on our buts behind a keyboard all safely and anonymously right? We're not all training for the Olympics right? We're not all training to be cage fighters right? We're playing a video game. How exactly are we associating "hardcore" with a video game?

 

You want hardcore? Google "MCMAP". Those guys are hardcore. We're playing a video game folks. Let's calm down with how tough and cool we are...

[Sendrel]

From my point of view, adding dual spec removes many of the rewards gained by work and sacrifice. The effort and investment to attain those edges of optimization go unrewarded if you can get it comparably speaking for free. It gives motivation that drives player through the content as well as adding value to the sense of accomplishment.

 

Dual specs are a short cut to what otherwise is attained by effort, the multiple specialist. By adding in dual specs, you cut the needed effort to be good in multiple arenas into fractions of what it is. Especially, in a game where people are complaining about there being a lack of endgame, why take away the motivation to participate in what the game does do well just to excel at at what it is currently doing sort of badly by the accounts of many.

 

What are the rewards that get taken away by the inclusion of dual spec? The rewards for being able to quickly and easily swap specs are the opportunity to see more of the content (pve and pvp vs. one or the other) and the option to play your healer/tank as dps as the situation (or just your mood) warrants, among a whole slew of others.

 

And here's the fun part: it doesn't impact your gameplay at all. Not even a little bit. I respec'd twice today. You wouldn't have even noticed if I didn't tell you.

 

Honestly, taking this from the player perspective is sort of missing the point of the how the game was developed. SWTOR excels at developing a richly-storied character in many different flavors. Each character is intended to be that well-developed and represent it's path to it present, not just be a placeholder for time spent by the player in the game. If you just want credit for your time in and be able to convert your levels to build for your avatar/gaming platform for your specific current activity, you are headed off the intended path and asking to do it in a way the devalues the direction of those playing as intended.

 

Yes, that is different than some players have grown accustomed but, it's also why SWTOR is seeing alot of players that weren't playing MMOs recently. Many were waiting for a game like this about story and not about being an eSport.

 

Dual spec has nothing to do with e-sport. You're still not arguing against dual spec. You're also making judgements about what is intended that, I'm pretty sure you can't square logically with the fact that you have the ability to respec at all. All those things that 'devalues the direction of those playing as intended'? I did them multiple times today already and you wouldn't even have noticed had I not told you.

 

Dual spec presents you with options that typically result in sub retention. And the best part, it doesn't impact your gameplay at all.

[Sendrel]

I'd have thought this was already obvious. What other motivation would you see behind increasing costs for successive respecs? I can see only two conclusions:

 

1. Bioware thinks that respecs will earn you more cash, so they increase the cost as a credit-sink
   
2. They didn't intend you to use it repeatedly, so they punish you (provide a negative incentive) for using it often
   

 

The only other argument is "They're dumb and did it randomly". If that is the case, then we're outside logic and nothing anyone says can be taken to mean anything at all. So, from the two above options, I only see the second as viable. As respec'ing surely can improve your ability to play different content, you could get more cash, but the increase would not be a geometric/logarithmic increase with each respec. That leaves me with only the second option: that the cost is meant to be a deterrent and that deterrents are used to discourage play styles that players were not intended to use repeatedly.

 

Feel free to suggest your own evaluation.

 

My evaluation is that they didn't think it through completely and/or just didn't have time to implement a dual spec feature.

 

Or their hubris got the better of them. Again.

 

The fact that respecs don't have a hard cap, but rather a monetary cap (soft cap) suggests to me that they wanted to use it as a credit sink, but just got their scaling wrong. If they intended it to discourage respecs being 'used repeatedly', the only way to do that with any assurance at all is to implement a hard cap, i.e. you can only respec once a week, or month, etc.

 

I'll reiterate my questions from earlier in the thread:

The [question] is simple then: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game are asking for dual-spec?

 

Or here's an easier version: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game even know what dual-spec is?

 

Simpler again: Do you honestly believe that over 50% of the players of this game know what the term "spec" means?

 

I have no way of knowing how many players are asking for (or would like to see) dual spec implemented with any accuracy. I would guess it is greater than 50%. If pressed, I'd guess its much greater than 50%.

 

Again, no way to be sure, but I'd guess that a majority of the players understand the concepts behind dual spec and specs in general.

 

Its possible I'm naive, but I give people a little bit of credit before calling them morons.

 

I rarely see people use the term "dumb down" in a way that is not biased with prejudice and elitism.

 

That said: I won't say this is easy. The Tank/Medic/DPS system pretty much dooms you to this result. If you allow the game to step away from that, the situation becomes easier to manage. Of course, that brings in new problems and requires your player base to learn to play a game that isn't Tank/Medic/DPS. I've elaborated on this before, but the quick version is this: Tanking was an illogical addition to PvE (ordinary RPG) and Medics are a utility class. Both are designed for groups. Alone, Medics are weak in PvP by design and Tanks are weak in PvP to keep them from being immortal and pointless in groups against anyone with a brain (No, I'm not going to attack you just because you Taunted me).

 

Keeping the Tank/Medic/DPS system leaves less room to adjust, but I don't think it would be impossible. You'd still be able to make specs that are worthless in PvP, but you're never going to find a system that doesn't allow idiots to make bad decisions.

 

In thinking about it, I've actually realized that I'd be okay (not happy, but okay) with another option: Dual-spec but no respec. Choices still have consequence. You get your PvE and PvP specs. You can choose your spec somewhere convenient (but not at the drop of a hat). Yeah, it violates my no-respec ideals, but I actually find the trivial respec to be the greater crime against RPGs. At least dual-spec/no-respec forces people to live with their choices.

 

I probably wouldn't play a game that includes talent trees, but no means of respecing. It just wouldn't be my cup of tea. Having said that, I still admire your consistency.

[CyberData]

They have more than one team of programmers. Since when could companies only do one thing at one time?

 

And those other teams need to be working on priority fixes. Not new content/features right now.

 

That's what SWG did wrong. Churned out broken content that stacked on top of layers of broken content.

 

No thanks.

[Mazikeen]

Modern day mmo without dual spec, pretty much a joke. This game, like wow etc. Cater's to the bads and casuals, dual spec will come because of this

 

So wanting dual spec makes me bad or casual?

 

You, sir, clearly have never met me

[JustTed]

Modern day mmo with dual spec, pretty much a joke.

 

I fixed your post.

 

The real joke is an RPG without any real choices to make. You kids should learn to pick a role and stop thinking that, if you whine hard enough, the world will just give you what you're crying for.

 

Dual specs suck.

[Mazikeen]

Here, I'll kill this thread too...

 

I'm tired of MMOs rendering decisions irrelevant across the board when designing your character. Fixing a mistake is okay, but it NEEDS to be expensive or extremely taxing to do, else character development and design is trivialized.

 

I'm tired of:

 

* People whining about a lack of decent tanks/healers then saying the decent players have to roll a new character to 50 to fill one of these roles

* People thinking wanting dual spec makes a player bad or lazy

* People thinking everyone who dual specs is incompetent because they didn't level a role from 1-50

* People thinking they're better than others

* People that argue against something without any concrete argument as to why

* People that fail to understand that raids, as a rule, require a smaller percentage of tanks/healers than regular groups making said roles excessive in some guilds

* Having to kick a bad tank/healer or replace on that bailed halfway through a raid/dungeon when I can simply swap specs (and gear if need be) and fill the role myself, replacing my old role with a DPS (that tend to be a dime a dozen)

* Tanks/healers that think they should be rare because if they're not they can't act like some sort of god to be worshiped by the rest of the player base

* Having to rearrange action bars every time I respec when dual spec will save said action bars and I can simply swap back and forth (within reason)

 

Some background on me:

 

* I want dual spec

* I've played MMOs for 11+ years since EQ1 (when MMOs actually required thought)

* I have never been told I'm bad at any of my roles by anyone that could be believed by the rest of my group/raid

* I have played every role you can conceive on most classes in every MMO I have played

* I intend on sinking over a million credits (yes, A MILLION) into gearing my Operative and don't particularly want to reroll a new one just to heal

* I am very, very good at theory crafting builds, have had many people comment positively on them and would like to be able to test one with a spare spec-slot before committing

[JustTed]

RPGs used to be about making choices before WoW started spoon feeding you and turning you into entitled children.