Damage output in PvP is simply too high right now.

[Wheem]

Sure, Operatives/Scoundrels are one of the obvious offenders, and there's been a lot of complaining about them for quite some time now, but they're not the only ones that are capable of a silly amount of damage right now. For instance, < 2 hours ago a lone Sith Juggernaut dropped me to ~60% during a single 1.82 second cast of Underworld Medicine on a teammate; he made NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to interrupt me, just stood there pretending it was a PvE boss fight.

 

I've had an Operative crit me for 5.7k in a single hit, and seen Skill Missile spamming mercs get ~3.4k crits back to back as I was LOSing them. It's not at all uncommon for me to get to < 50% hp in one single stun when only being attacked by one player, and that's simply broken.

[Vortx]

umm, no. i like the high damage output. I want a fast-paced game where its actually possible to kill people 1v1, maybe 1v2 if you outplay them a lot.

 

 

in WoW it takes like 10 minutes just to kill someone 1v1, its a joke.

[Kemorand]

That plus the 30% heal reduction in PvP makes it a total FPS extravaganza. Just whoever DPS the fastest and focus target the most will roll on everything.

 

With most DPS classes able to dish out insane output, it's currently totally impossible to maintain anyone alive. Any CC will just give you 2 heals respite at the most, which are annihilated in one single hit from the enemy.

You are FAR more successful just DPSING the person as a healer than even trying to heal.

 

How I miss the good old DAoC healing system where you had fight lasting a good 15 minutes because you could actually heal up people and have pacing in a fight.

[davetrump]

Since hitting 50 my hit points have increased 25%. My damage by 300%.

 

It's only going to get worse.

[Lasica]

It's not that bad. I was with a commando out in Ilum late last night and we came across a warrior + operative healer (I'm sage healer) and the fight lasted for several minutes because neither group could burst down the other.

[Badlander]

umm, no. i like the high damage output. I want a fast-paced game where its actually possible to kill people 1v1, maybe 1v2 if you outplay them a lot.

 

 

in WoW it takes like 10 minutes just to kill someone 1v1, its a joke.

 

It never took me 10 min in pvp to kill someone in WOW..i had to lol when i read this.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Badlander

[Phlaago]

know your class, then know your enemies classes...

 

he probably saw you were standing there still, popped his consumable+trinked and slapped a ravage on you.. this is a 30sec cooldown attack that fails to deliver alot of its damage if you simply move away from him when he uses it (you were casting so you were not cc'd...) OR in case he was level 40 at least he might have had crushing blow to use... which hits like a truck if he had time to put 4-5 stacks of sunder armor on you a few seconds earlier.

 

Simply put: L2P (In this case: Learn to Prioritize)

 

dont just stand there repeatedly healing your teammates with enemy melee in your face..

(Especially if they have already performed there initial setup attacks loading you up with debuffs)

you need to take care of yourself a bit before you are in a position to take care of others.

If you could actually stand there and ignore him for any length of time healing your teammate while he was laying into you the game would definately be a joke!

 

also.. if you are a healer, what class is your friend? He cant be a tank or else you should have had guard on you! Or any defensive buff really.. if the **** hits the fan with my agent I at least have evasion to toss up to give me a 3s window where weapon damage basically will not hit me, im pretty sure you have a similar skill.

 

Also.. a QQ about how badly a JUGGERNAUT was hurting you is just funny.. they honestly have problems in the dps compartment compared to most classes.. at the very least they are late bloomers getting alot of their better toys at late levels.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Phlaago

[Wheem]

umm, no. i like the high damage output. I want a fast-paced game where its actually possible to kill people 1v1, maybe 1v2 if you outplay them a lot.

 

 

in WoW it takes like 10 minutes just to kill someone 1v1, its a joke.

Spoken like a true Baddy McBadderson. You'll never 2v1 people in the current system if they understand how to use a PvE rotation during a stun. The amount of damage going around right now largely removes individual player skill from the equation - when you take so much damage in such a short amount of time, it's hard to tell if someone is a horrible player or one of the best in the game. About the only way I can tell is when a Merc just stands there with his/her thumb up their backside after I interrupt a Skill Missile, or when people start keyboard turning after I trinket a stun and LOS them. But even though they're bad, they're still incredibly dangerous, and that needs to change.

 

know your class, then know your enemies classes...

 

he probably saw you were standing there still, popped his consumable+trinked and slapped a ravage on you.. this is a 30sec cooldown attack that fails to deliver alot of its damage if you simply move away from him when he uses it (you were casting so you were not cc'd...) OR in case he was level 40 at least he might have had crushing blow to use... which hits like a truck if he had time to put 4-5 stacks of sunder armor on you a few seconds earlier.

 

Simply put: L2P (In this case: Learn to Prioritize)

 

dont just stand there repeatedly healing your teammates with enemy melee in your face..

(Especially if they have already performed there initial setup attacks loading you up with debuffs)

you need to take care of yourself a bit before you are in a position to take care of others.

If you could actually stand there and ignore him for any length of time healing your teammate while he was laying into you the game would definately be a joke!

 

also.. if you are a healer, what class is your friend? He cant be a tank or else you should have had guard on you! Or any defensive buff really.. if the **** hits the fan with my agent I at least have evasion to toss up to give me a 3s window where weapon damage basically will not hit me, im pretty sure you have a similar skill.

 

Also.. a QQ about how badly a JUGGERNAUT was hurting you is just funny.. they honestly have problems in the dps compartment compared to most classes.. at the very least they are late bloomers getting alot of their better toys at late levels.

This was level 50 so everyone has all their skills available. I was trying to keep a teammate (random person, not a friend - Jedi Sentinel iirc) alive vs the damage he was taking, so yes, I was "just standing there" casting Underworld Medicine - it was either that or let him die. But then the Juggernaut showed up and in 1.83 seconds I lost nearly half my HP - to one single player. That's broken. I don't care what 30 second cooldowns he may or may not have used, no class should be doing that much damage in that amount of time with any sort of regularity whatsoever. This is not a first person shooter.

[JackKerras]

This game was created with quick TTK in place.

 

NOT having huge healing stalemates is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Yes, healers are less effective. Yes, that is an overall beneficial effect on PvP.

 

Honestly. You really want to fight with folks who will barely ever drop below 50%, while you're getting heals that keep you from being killed?

 

Kills SHOULD happen. Heals should NOT just keep people up with healspam. The system, right now, is working really nicely; I can heal and I do sometimes, but the main deal is knocking important folks out of the fight, which is my focus.

 

Getting healed through damage feels good until everyone is getting healed through damage. The 30% heal debuff in PvP is a GREAT idea; there were WAY too many fights in WAR where all involved parties were just invincible.

[Phlaago]

Ahh... a 50s match, so do you know what kind of gear the juggernaut had? Probably not unless you made a imp alt to go look him up and to an inspect on him.

 

Shall we all agree to not **** up the game for all of us because you prefer pillowfights?

(which is what we will have when a low survivability class can stand with impunity healing a teammate while having enemy melee in their face)

 

If you get your way with this we will soon see pvp where it takes an ops leader to call a target and half a dozen people to focus that target while someone cc's the healers for anyone to get a kill.. especially with the abundance of escape mechanisms in this game there would be no way to kill someone 1v1 inside their cooldowns.. from your reaction I gather you would want an almost 50% damage nerf.. this would have the effect I have listed, people would simply not die 1v1 anymore unless they were being stupid, medpacks and defensive cooldowns/cc would be back before a player was down and it would kill any sort of individual action by the classes designed for that type of play forcing everyone to gang up.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Phlaago

[Wheem]

You guys sure do love your false dichotomies. Nerfing damage to the point that someone can't do almost 50% of another (decently geared) player's life in LESS THAN TWO SECONDS doesn't mean that you're going to have half hour long duels; it simply means that you might have to learn how to time interrupts, stuns, and CCs in order to kill someone when there's a decent healer around.

 

And if you don't like the Juggernaut example, how about when I took 5.7k damage in a single hit from an Operative? Or two 3.4k hits back to back from one press of a Tracer Missile button. Or any other number of instances where I'm not being zerged down, but still getting to < 50% (and sometimes dying outright) to a single player's damage in the duration of one stun (or snare for that matter, if there's no obstacle nearby).

[DrekorSilverfang]

This game was created with quick TTK in place.

 

NOT having huge healing stalemates is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. Yes, healers are less effective. Yes, that is an overall beneficial effect on PvP.

 

Honestly. You really want to fight with folks who will barely ever drop below 50%, while you're getting heals that keep you from being killed?

 

Kills SHOULD happen. Heals should NOT just keep people up with healspam. The system, right now, is working really nicely; I can heal and I do sometimes, but the main deal is knocking important folks out of the fight, which is my focus.

 

Getting healed through damage feels good until everyone is getting healed through damage. The 30% heal debuff in PvP is a GREAT idea; there were WAY too many fights in WAR where all involved parties were just invincible.

The problem is kills are happening through pure damage with no one even having to stop to consider how to COUNTER the healers. They just spam as much damage as possible. This is why games like SWTOR and WoW, Aion, Rift etc etc will never be seriously considered as a competitive pvp game as rather than try and obtain balance and add depth and force people to overcome others with skill they simply just throw there arms up and say "**** it" here is epic loot go roll your face on the keyboard to win.

[goldenarmz]

You guys sure do love your false dichotomies. Nerfing damage to the point that someone can't do almost 50% of another (decently geared) player's life in LESS THAN TWO SECONDS doesn't mean that you're going to have half hour long duels; it simply means that you might have to learn how to time interrupts, stuns, and CCs in order to kill someone when there's a decent healer around.

 

And if you don't like the Juggernaut example, how about when I took 5.7k damage in a single hit from an Operative? Or two 3.4k hits back to back from one press of a Tracer Missile button. Or any other number of instances where I'm not being zerged down, but still getting to < 50% (and sometimes dying outright) to a single player's damage in the duration of one stun (or snare for that matter, if there's no obstacle nearby).

 

Tracers don't crit that high. You probably ate crits from a fully buffed railshot followed by heat seeking missile. Meaning you are bad because it took him 3 tracers to debuff you so he can hit that hard.

[Wheem]

Tracers don't crit that high. You probably ate crits from a fully buffed railshot followed by heat seeking missile. Meaning you are bad because it took him 3 tracers to debuff you so he can hit that hard.

Oh really? There's a 3,825 Tracer Missile crit just before the 3 minute mark in

(and you know it's a Tracer Missile because that's the only ability on his bars).

 

Sorry, but one-button-wonder class needs some adjustments, they're just not the only ones. As I've stated in other threads though, I'd be fine with (at least non-healer) Mercs getting some improvements in mobility and what not once they're not able to do so much damage with spamming one button over and over and over.

 

Edit: Just noticed that was apparently pre-1.1 on a lower level player, but I've still eaten > 3k crits from what was obviously a Tracer Missile (assuming no ability-graphics lag, and it certainly wasn't something that came after 3 successive Tracer Missiles).

Edited January 23, 2012 by Wheem

[Posixgod]

You guys sure do love your false dichotomies. Nerfing damage to the point that someone can't do almost 50% of another (decently geared) player's life in LESS THAN TWO SECONDS doesn't mean that you're going to have half hour long duels; it simply means that you might have to learn how to time interrupts, stuns, and CCs in order to kill someone when there's a decent healer around.

 

And if you don't like the Juggernaut example, how about when I took 5.7k damage in a single hit from an Operative? Or two 3.4k hits back to back from one press of a Tracer Missile button. Or any other number of instances where I'm not being zerged down, but still getting to < 50% (and sometimes dying outright) to a single player's damage in the duration of one stun (or snare for that matter, if there's no obstacle nearby).

 

Can you provide a link to the spec you're using in PVP please?

[Red_Cruiser]

This post pretty much demonstrates why GW2 and it's decision to remove the holy trinity is going to result in the best PvP experience in an MMORPG to date.

[copasetic]

The Juggernaut hitting you for half your HP had to of been Rage specced. He hit you with a fully buffed Smash that crits for over 4k. I play a Rage Jugg and my crits are often between 4k-6k on squishies and 3k-4k on heavies. The entire Rage tree is built around Smash and nerfing it would severely hurt the entire spec. Besides, any competent opponent can tell when a Rage Jugg is building up his Smash and when to avoid it. CC him and run or if you're playing a class with a knockback, use the knockback as soon as the Jugg begins the Smash animation, which is when he jumps in the air, and you will take zero damage while his Smash goes on CD (I'm not sure if this is a bug or not but take advantage of it while you can if it is).

 

At least a Jugg has to build up his Smash with other abilities in order to do that high of burst damage. A Merc can literally sit in one spot and press two keys (Tracer Missile and Rail Shot) to do just as much damage as I listed above.

Edited January 23, 2012 by copasetic

[Wheem]

Can you provide a link to the spec you're using in PVP please?

At the time I think I was http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701MffMdhoozZZGrbkMbo.1 (or something very similar).

[Astarica]

If burst DPS can't overcome burst healing, then are we supposed to just have a draw when both sides has a good healer?

[Wheem]

If burst DPS can't overcome burst healing, then are we supposed to just have a draw when both sides has a good healer?

Burst healing can be overcome via CC's, Interrupts, Knockbacks/LOS, and Stuns. Still, I can't heal 40% of my (or anyone else's) hp in < 2 seconds.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Wheem

[Innercalm]

For instance, < 2 hours ago a lone Sith Juggernaut dropped me to ~60% during a single 1.82 second cast of Underworld Medicine on a teammate; he made NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to interrupt me, just stood there pretending it was a PvE boss fight.

 

Where is your tank with his gaurd on you? Where is your Shadow with his force pull to get him away from you? Where are your range DPSers blasting and CCing this pesky Juggernaught until he consideres not hitting the respawn button?

 

Big damage hits happen to squishy targets, the PvP in this game is not about individual play but working together as a team with every player knowing their role and sticking to it. Sometimes a good healer gets placed on a team that he won't win with no matter how good he is, and any good player, no matter what their role, can have this problem. Grit your teeth, play it out, and hope your next team is better.

[Tealo]

And if you don't like the Juggernaut example, how about when I took 5.7k damage in a single hit from an Operative? Or two 3.4k hits back to back from one press of a Tracer Missile button. Or any other number of instances where I'm not being zerged down, but still getting to < 50% (and sometimes dying outright) to a single player's damage in the duration of one stun (or snare for that matter, if there's no obstacle nearby).

 

I can personally say that my Tracer crits only land for 2900 minus relic/consumables on pvp geared healers. and from what i've observed, thats in line with the ouput of the majority of my opponents, execpt the stealth slap.

 

its possible your gear is contributing to your massive dmg taken. I know I HS crit squishes for around 5100. but i'm also full champ/battle

Edited January 23, 2012 by Tealo

[VertisReaper]

how can a "guard is OP" and "burst is OP" thread exist simultaneously on the same page of the pvp forums? no sense make.

[Dominemesis]

umm, no. i like the high damage output. I want a fast-paced game where its actually possible to kill people 1v1, maybe 1v2 if you outplay them a lot.

 

 

in WoW it takes like 10 minutes just to kill someone 1v1, its a joke.

 

 

THis i don't want to play a game designed for people with no reflexes at all, or who can't play without all of their team backing them. WoW downshifting burst damage and elongating 1v1 fights forever after saying the effing game wasn't balanced around that was not only a line of complete horse crap, but made the pvp a damn joke. The pvp in this right now is actually pretty damn well balanced, and if they aka BIOWARE ever decides through solid research and tests (not forum *****es) to rebalance anything then I hope they take a great deal of care in doing so. Kneejerks based off of the whining of forum jerks discounts any amount of testing that happened during beta, and makes the whole process look slap dash and careless.

[Wheem]

Where is your tank with his gaurd on you? Where is your Shadow with his force pull to get him away from you? Where are your range DPSers blasting and CCing this pesky Juggernaught until he consideres not hitting the respawn button?

 

Big damage hits happen to squishy targets, the PvP in this game is not about individual play but working together as a team with every player knowing their role and sticking to it. Sometimes a good healer gets placed on a team that he won't win with no matter how good he is, and any good player, no matter what their role, can have this problem. Grit your teeth, play it out, and hope your next team is better.

Not every battle is 8 vs 8. The particular instance with the Juggernaut happened at the second set of doors in Voidstar. I had died and respawned on the "wrong" side of the bridge, so I ran across and saw one Republic teammate fighting one Imperial player (everyone else was zerging at the other door). I tossed a Slow Release Medpac (HOT) on my teammate as I approached and then began casting Underworld Medicine, which is when the Juggernaut showed up and Force Leaped to me. So I started another Underworld Medicine immediately (teammate's HP was low and I got no Upper Hand proc from my HOT), and bam dropped to ~60% hp in the < 2 second cast time.