This is what is ruining the game. Ex WoW players complaining and ruining the fun for the rest of us "I don't want to play Huttball, I want an arena, We should be able to queue with our 8 man premade, I want to pick my warzone." Ranked warzones are going to consist of 8 man ops queuing for the exact same warzone day after day after day (this sounds fun for about a month tops). It is going to be cross server so it will, in my opinion, kill any community inside the server. The WoW players want things their way with Dual AC and combat logs and their Macros are just sucking the fun out of this game. Eventually it will dry up and all that will be left is a dusty road with a sign that says "GW2 is that way -->". MMORPG are really only fun in the pure, raw, unfiltered form within the first months (or years if they are lucky) of their release. The worst thing Bioware did was open these forums and begin making major changes/nerfs so early into release. But then again they feel pressure from Diablo 3 and GW2 with release dates right around the corner so it may have been a recipe for failure no matter what they did. Oh, I have no problems grouping for warzones. If no one on from my guild is interested (or if I feel so inclined) I will queue solo, see people I know, and group with them. I am a great pvper, who likes randomness in my game. Living in a comfort zone bores me. I mean do you really think your rank is all important if you queue with the same group every single time for the same warzone? Enjoy, I leave for Boot Camp soon, that'll be my warzone. When I return no doubt this game will be dead and/or get boring quickly.

It's a tank, and what you virtually said is that a tank can contribute more to a team then a DPS, which is true is some cases and false in others. Your TK throw is you're damage dealer and does deal serious damage I will admit, but it is completely predictable, like I said. It is easy for another shadow to resilience whenever they see a shadow use TK throw and therefore negate the 1 move you guys have that puts up serious numbers (Project can put some good numbers up too, but project costs a lot of force and is not a unique damage dealing ability to the spec, and of course spinning strike - both of which deal less damage then the other specs). Some people can play their Kinetic Shadows well, and are great contributors. But if you're competing with a Guardian or a Vanguard for a spot you better be damn good. It will all come down to play style, and if you are good enough to make balance work you will not be easily replaced because no other spec plays like a balance shadow. It is the hardest class to play, so those of us who play it well are anything but bad. Your decision is simple 1. Tank 2. Melee DPS 3. Balance Shadow. I understand this may seem a little over the top and *very slightly* exaggerated, but after the recent surge of players switching to KC Shadow I have read too many posts with people who think KC Shadows are LEET. It is the easiest to play hands down and this is where the misconception comes from. Any character, played by a good player who understands the play style of the character/spec they are playing, can be a force to reckon with.

Kinetic Shadows damage is weak, predictable, and AoE based. You're utility will be in playing as a tank. They are tanks, and do have great support (I am not taking anything away from the spec), but this myth that they have great 1v1 damage is simply not true. I agree with Philosophomaniac that from what you described Balance seems to be your best bet, and if you decide to go Balance stick with it through the frustration and level up exclusively in the tree. It is the most unique class in the game: KC shadows bring little more to the table than other tanks and Infiltration Shadows bring little more to the table than a Sentinel. With that being said it is also very hard to play well, and to master. Individuals differ greatly in how they play their balance specs as well, so getting feedback about how to play it will seem contradictory. I personally put 8 points into the Infiltration Tree, and have debated with others who put 10 points into the KC tree. The fact is there is no right way to play your Balance spec, and it comes down to your personal play style. If you decide to go this route, which you seem to have made your mind up against it, post back your feedback and experiences. But make sure you stick with it, and don't be one of these "I run Balance in Combat Technique, or I run the Hybrid" guys because both are noticeably flawed compared to playing a Balance Shadow properly. Like I said, you seem to have made up your mind against Balance and for KC. If this is the case there is plenty of good information and plenty of good videos for you to help you become a formidable KC shadow or Infiltration Shadow. There is no wrong choice, all are good (as is any class) if played properly. You just need to pick one and stick with it.

The fact of the matter is that any premade will not beat any PuG. Real skill comes out by controlling the situations you are put in. You are put against random teams to play against who are in the same situation as it is now, so if you were halfway decent you would realize that PvP skill in this game is not, as it stands now, in playing your character (which everyone can do well at a high level), but how well you and your premade can blend with a random premade. If you have entered a warzone with a premade (which I can clearly assume you haven't) you realize that as of now it doesn't matter whether or not I like the random factor because the most people you can queue with is 4. You sir, clearly do not know what you are talking about regarding DPS commandos. There is a reason good commandos top damage charts, because they have good damage output in group situations, really good damage output. We have our 2 1v1 classes (balance shadow/sentinel) as well as a healer. I didn't hear you mention anything about the healer being shut down by anyone with half a brain? Yet that is true as well is it not? Thanks for trolling, it's not my fault you’re a bad 31/0/10 and nobody wants you in their premade (I assume that is the reason you did not post that information). You're contributions to the shadow community will be remembered and I will stand behind you as you challenge Kitru for supremacy on the shadow message boards.

I'm assuming the warzone itself is 8v8, but you can only queue with a group of 4 (as the system is now). So I wanted you to make the assumption that your 4 man premade is going to be pair with 4 other random characters. I think it's always a good idea to spread out your team. Like you said you protect yourself from AoE and also have someone keep an eye on your healer. Also it seems to "feel" more organized with a group of 2 melees and 2 ranged fighters (just a personal opinion). Most people would say a group of 4 ranged fighters would be the best (i.e. 2 merc and 2 sorcs). The issue with a group such as this is you lose any 1v1 encounters as both mercs and sorcs do not hold their own as well as some classes in these situations. EDIT: oh and instead of swapping you're Commando for Vanguard why not swap your Sent for a Guardian. Inf/Sent play similiar roles and therefore if you need a tank (although my premade lacks one, they are great to play with) guardians are a solid choice.

Bad guilds do not run 16 man ops on nightmare mode....

I do like the idea of a Sawbones in my group as well, I must admit. They can stealth out of sticky situations, plus they bring lucky shots to the table. Also they are targeted less than sage healers, in my opinion and from my experience. Although Commando DPS lack the pull, they deal serious damage and have more survivability than a sage range DPS, as well as have some good utility themselves with their stuns and their knockbacks. It is a good class to have near your healer for sure. If I would substitute the commando for any class it would probably be a Gunslinger. At this point we lose AoE damage for high individual damage (which may not be needed). You're right that for any shadow (with the exception of Inf) I feel a sentinel is a must in the group. Although their utility is, in my opinion, lacking compared to balance shadows or KC shadows (or the hybrid) their damage is to good to pass up. They are hands down my favorite class to play with. As for having a vanguard and a hybrid shadow, both of these classes are very "tanky". I feel like you are sacrificing a lot of damage in by having 2 tanks in your group. But if your play styles work well together I can definitely see it working, I might wonder why you wouldn't go full KC and trade your Vanguard in for a Commando or Slinger (losing a pull does not seem to be the end of the world, in my opinion).

With ranked warzones in the coming future, I thought it may be fun to start a thread where people discuss their premades or their ideal premades. We're going to keep it limited to 4 man premades since that is all that is available to us right now, although there is some speculation that 8 man ops allowed to queue together when ranked warzones are introduced (personally I like the random factor, makes warzone more versatile/interesting for me at least). But with all opinions and speculations aside, what is your spec, your ideal premade, and why does it work? Balance Shadow Sentinel Commando (DPS) Sage (Healer) Although we lack a tank, my mates and I have good chemistry and each of styles complement one another so that we can both protect our healer as well as burn down anyone we fight. Once I find the opposing healer, the Sent leaps to him and we can just have our way with him. Criticize/compare/contrast/coincide/cooperate/co.....

The doublebladed defense theory is wrong, unfortunately. "Parry/deflect" is a situation where you completely evade the attack, taking 0 damage from it. "Absorbing" some of the damage, from your shield, means you take a % less damage from the attack as the damage is absorbed by the shield. I'm not saying that it is not the right way to go to use a shield as a KC Shadow in PvP (I believe it is), I am just trying to clear up that bit of information.

No, Gfree is right. Forcemaster gear is the way to go. The range increase is too good to pass up along with added self heals from mindcrush. The extra force potency charge, although nice, is almost entirely for increasing burst (ensures 1 extra crit over a 20 sec time period, and then is on CD), and is therefore more suited for infilitration shadows.

Check. It is true that as a balance shadow, I have the sustained DPS to crush tanks and when I fight a tank I can tell within 5 seconds if he has a shield or not. Tanks are meant to grind out their wins, why wouldn't you do everything possible to play to your strengths? Mate. Although there is an occasional "leet player" that can make it work inside their own server against pugs, against the best premades from every server you will come up short every time. High end PvP is ALWAYS about rock - paper - scissors. Making yourself less of a rock will just leave you open to getting beat by scissors while giving yourself no more of an advantage against paper. Good post fendergibson.

I rarely struggle to kill a sorc 1v1 as a shadow, especially if I get the opener on them. When I am beaten I give them their respect (they used a good stun and healed themselves up at a smart time or went on a crit streak that I couldn't counter). With that being said, all the BM sages/sorcs on my server have roughly 16.5k hp. If you add to this 3.2k bubble (twice because they can almost always put a 2nd bubble on themselves) you roughly need to do 23k damage to take down a sorc/sage. This is against a class that is pure healing/DPS so even though they are hit harder then tanks, they still can take the same amount of damage as a tank and put out serious damage which most tanks can only dream of. They are a "squishy" 23k hp DPS with 1 GCD wasted (lets face facts they *always* have the bubble up prior to any 1v1), but still a 23k hp DPS. I am not speculating whether or not the bubble should be nerfed, that’s not my place. I am just saying I can see why people would be frustrated with this as the class can deal some serious damage. EDIT: Oh, and I acknowledge that the bubble is not subject to any damage reduction, so that 6k of the 23k is even "squishier."

I like the idea behind it. After you do test it would you want to post a video? I can imagine what the spec would play like but seeing it in action might change everything. It's funny you posted a Force Technique hybrid spec because I scrapped one that I was thinking about with, this will probably shock you Gfree, the Infiltration Tree and low slash. I never pushed it forward to production though. EDIT: Oh and I would probably move points out of Nerve Racking as well and put 1 in bombardment and 2 in containment. As a balance shadow I couldn't imagine giving up my instant force lift.

I completely understand trying to boost your endurance (I take some high end items as well) over trying to boost your armor or damage reduction (I also have taken the 2 points in the tier 1 of balance for damage reduction and between this and shadowy veil I get at least an extra 7-8% damage reduction). This seems like a "we'll agree to disagree" situation for us because I personally like the extra damage reduction against classes such as Marauders or Snipers, which have given me problems in the past. Sorcs never bothered me, at all. They are squishy and easily interruptible. Shadow Strike when FW procs is a tank killer. It deals roughly the same damage to any target you use it on (with the exception of a "guarded" target). You're 2.5k double strike is probably around 1.5-1.8k against any tank. With FW proc I still break the 3k, and because of all the internal damage we can do (with sever force and FiB) I laugh at all tanks and their weak damage. DS is more practical, but considering that SS damage output is the same on "squishy targets" as it is on heavy armored tanks (and hits slightly harder than 1 DS where both hits crit) it seems like a more than practical move to pick up. Another thing to keep in mind is that using sever force also will have more damage output compared to DS over it's 18s, or again roughly the same. Sever Force is probably my favorite move because of the range, DoT, and Root. It is extremely useful on majority of targets, even if the target has the ability to remove Dots (I use it early to bait Assassins to use their resilience and remove this compared to having Force Breach removed). Sever Force is also our only DoT that is internal (Mind Crush/Force Breach are kinetic which will be affected by armor) which means the damage may roughly equal Force Breach’s damage against a tank. Yeah, this is why I was on the fence with this Tech mastery, not because of the classes I was fighting (well balanced server as far as classes I go against) but because they changed Tech mastery to deal 6%/12%/18% more Force Technique damage as well as the crit % boost. With our DoTs Force Technique deals damage as fast as possible (every second I believe). I may have to see what I can mod my Force Master Armor to before I make any final decision, because if I can get my def chance up to 20% (with mods and dbls def) it may be more practical to take that still, but this also requires a slight drop in power. I am respecing today so I will get a better idea about what Tech mastery can offer.

I'm sorry mate, but you need to read my original post. 10 things different between balance shadows and balance sages (which I feel make the shadow better for my play style). 2 were from the balance tree, 3 were from infiltration, and 5 were unique to shadows. It is quite hard to find 10 things inside a shared tree because essentially all the other main perks of balance the sages also receive (FiB, focused insight, instant force lift, force suppression charges, sever force). As for mental fortitude buffing focused insight, that is simply a stretch and I don't need to do the math in order to realize that (1 + .03) x .02 is not that much of a buff compared to 1 x .02 (although I can definitely see the extra health being a benefit I am not arguing that). I will ignore the fact that you disagree with taking Infiltration points because I understand that taking shadowy veil is controversial and people may not realize the benefits of 15% movement speed until they are actively playing with it (personally it took me a few warzones to really notice the difference). However taking Infiltration Tactics and making Shadow Strike a completely usable move as a balance shadow is huge. When FW it gives you a 3rd attack that can break 3k dmg in one hit (the other 2 being FiB crit and Spinning Strike crit [upheaval project crits come close as well but I’m not sure they break the 3k mark as a balance shadow]). With sever force you don't even need to waste a CC to use it because even the best Imps on my server cannot turn fast enough when they are rooted in order to prevent me from using it. In my opinion, as a balance shadow, you are gimping yourself if you do not take Infiltration Tactics because it gives you extra burst and adds an extra move to our arsenal that greatly compliments our class. But with that aside, maybe you can help me finish up my build. I am currently between DBLS def and Technique Mastery (for the extra crit %). If you had 2 points to use in KC tree which would you go with? I have been playing around with both and I am still undecided. My thoughts are leaning towards DBLS defense because of the force regen, and since I need to mod the alacrity out of my Force Master set I may put some Def/Accuracy Mods in from the Survivor set in order to get a little bit more for my investment. But 1.1.2 made a pretty significant change to Technique Mastery taking away the added seconds to Force Breach. I would like to hear your thoughts, again keeping in mind that you had to choose 2 points of one or 2 points of the other.