No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[VanorDM]

I just want to play with people that share my opinions. And I'd like to know beforehand if not.

 

That seems to be true for pretty much everyone.

 

Which is why myself and others have said several times, that the best thing to do, is to discuss it before hand and see what people think.

 

If 3 of the 4 in the group feel differently then you, then you know it's likely not the group for you. If 2 of the 4 agree with you (you being the 3rd) then it is. But the only way to know this for sure is to ask.

[ispanolfw]

While she is allowed to approach the game as a purely aesthetic approach - when she is grouping she is part of a team that is trying to succeed at the task at hand.

 

Loot in an MMO, at the core, is meant to increase your character stats/skills to make them able to take on bigger and better things. Can it be pretty too? Sure.

 

I do not group with the concept that I will be facilitating someone to play Barbie Dress-up to the detriment of everyone else in the group.

 

I would suggest that the broker would be a better avenue for your wife's playstyle than grouping.

 

Then present it at the beginning so they can leave if they disagree. It's rather simple, you may not agree with it, but don't be silent then boot them, badmouth them, whatever because they did what they felt was right for them, and nothing was said prior so they could drop and let you find someone else.

[Galbatorrix]

I'm a Sentinel who wears smuggler gear. The difference? I found it myself, bought it myself, made it myself, or checked with the group to see if I could need it before hitting need. Me obtaining all my gear has not pissed off a single person so far, because I took the time to make sure everyone's kosher with me nabbing it.

 

I have no idea how people take the risk of pissing off people by doing whatever they want.

 

I solute you sir. You play the game the right way.

[Zhothon]

Take into consideration that anyone from any realm can post in these forums and forum discussions attract people who have different mindsets, so it's hard to presume what fraction of the player base which people are when they post here.

 

On my server though I have seen that all people I've played with - and I never discussed group loot rules with them - seem to share opinion that need is for player's character. For companions you can use need IF you ask before and no one else need it. From what I've seen the people are reasonable and make no problem of other people taking need if they don't need item for their character.

^^^

This

 

I have same experiences on my current server and the 6 months of beta I played. Realizing that these forums are skewed and do not proportionally represent the actual player community is key.

[VanorDM]

Ultimately, however, trying to draw any such conclusions from the volume of posts here is an exercise in futility.

 

No not really. It's quite easy to draw the conclusion that not everyone feels the same way.

[Galbatorrix]

Then present it at the beginning so they can leave if they disagree. It's rather simple, you may not agree with it, but don't be silent then boot them, badmouth them, whatever because they did what they felt was right for them, and nothing was said prior so they could drop and let you find someone else.

 

 

Stop telling people what they should and shouldn't do. If it's your right to need things over the people in the group that can use them as an upgrade, it's their right to boot you, badmouth you, get guilds to black list you and anything else they want to do to you.

 

 

Start playing right and those things won't happen.

[Loendar]

Then present it at the beginning so they can leave if they disagree. It's rather simple, you may not agree with it, but don't be silent then boot them, badmouth them, whatever because they did what they felt was right for them, and nothing was said prior so they could drop and let you find someone else.

 

Oh - don't get me wrong. I haven't run into this issue at all as I don't do PUG's for the very reasons being related here. I play with Guild members that I know are playing the game to further their characters and the Guild as a whole.

 

If I were in a PUG I would ask up front what was acceptable and make my decisions based on that and if it were a group dedicated to color swatches and looking pretty I would bow out gracefully.

[Creed_Buhallin]

Your Logic is not sound, sir. In fact, it's down right ridiculous. Playing dress up is fun and all, but it won't help you while questing. Stat boosts will. Nice troll attempt though.

No troll.

 

Believe it or not, my wife actually likes playing dress up. She cares less about the stats than she does about how something looks. She'll happily progress a little slower, or wait another level before we can take down that particular quest, if it means she's got a look she likes.

 

By your response, I can only assume that you're completely unfamiliar with women, and have certainly never been blessed with one who games with you. And that's before we even touch on roleplayers and the like, to whom appearance is equally important.

 

The fact that you cannot see beyond your preferred playstyle explains fully and completely why you cannot see beyond your need for loot priority. You won't even acknowledge the existence of other priorities - how could you possibly respect them?

[ispanolfw]

I solute you sir. You play the game the right way.

 

The right way.... so now you decide what is right and wrong? Some have said the people with the minority view should bring it up for discussion prior to killing anything. I will say those who have a view different from what the game allows should bring it up. Since if they see the system says this, and they follow that, but all of a sudden they roll and win something they want, they get booted, called names and the like. If you have the differing view to what the game has in place, YOU are the more able candidate to bring it up.

[ferroz]

BH wearing Sith robes? Wrong.

 

Jedi wearing smuggler hat? Wrong.

 

Smuggler wearing Inquisitor robes? Wrong.

 

It's a cop out to say that orange gear is up for grabs. It's whoever wants needs it, then whoever can wear it, then whoever wants it. That's how it goes.

No, there is no need. Stop lying to your self. You don't NEED it. You WANT it.

 

It goes to whoever wants it. Period. You don't get to dictate what want is valid and what isn't.

[Setanian]

^^^

This

 

I have same experiences on my current server and the 6 months of beta I played. Realizing that these forums are skewed and do not proportionally represent the actual player community is key.

 

You can think that if it helps you convince yourself you are correct. The very fact that this thread is over 100 pages would infer that there is a lot of disagreement with you though.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Setanian

[Democratus]

Start playing right and those things won't happen.

 

Translation: "Start playing the way I want you to play or face my wrath".

Edited January 27, 2012 by Democratus

[VanorDM]

Realizing that these forums are skewed and do not proportionally represent the actual player community is key.

 

These forms are going to be inherently less skewed and a better Representative of the player community then your server ever will be.

 

Your server is composed of a group of people who like to play a given way. Be it PvP, or RP or pure PvE.

 

The forms are going to be a much more random selection of people then any one server.

[Ancaglon]

No not really. It's quite easy to draw the conclusion that not everyone feels the same way.

 

Oh, you can certainly draw what conclusions you like, but trying to put numbers on the proportions with a certain view, as you attempted to do, is certainly not justified.

[Leiloni]

I know this thread is massive so no one is ever going to read my post, but I'll give my 2c anyway!

 

I think anyone can roll "Greed" on anything they want. If they really want an item not for their class so they can use the skin or on an alt, then I'd say they ask in group chat first. Plenty of time to do that while it's rolling. If no one for that class truly needs it, then sure go for it. Personally some of the heavy armor for Mercs is pretty ugly so I've thought about getting some Sith heavy armor and remodding it. Although I'd only roll on somthing in a group setting if no one of that class needed it.

[VanorDM]

If it's your right to need things over the people in the group that can use them as an upgrade

 

And if the item is an upgrade for him, why doesn't he have the right to roll on it?

 

badmouth you, get guilds to black list you and anything else they want to do to you.

 

Actually some of these things are grounds to have a person or even a whole guild banned from the game, because it's a violation of the TOS/EULA.

[Galbatorrix]

Translation: "Start playing the way I want you to play or face my wrath".

 

 

No, not my way. The right way. Ever heard the expression "He played the game the right way"? Same applies here. A FP is a group mission. You're part of a team. Play the right way and be fair to all. If an items drops that would upgrade their PC more than any of the other PCs, pass on it if they need it. That's good sportsmanship. Hence my statement, play the right way.

[VanorDM]

Oh, you can certainly draw what conclusions you like, but trying to put numbers on the proportions with a certain view, as you attempted to do, is certainly not justified.

 

I quite intentionally avoided putting numbers in, other then what is clearly a massive majority. I'm not saying which camp has the majority, but I will say and feel fairly safe in saying so, it's not nearly as clear cut as some people think it is.

[Galbatorrix]

I know this thread is massive so no one is ever going to read my post, but I'll give my 2c anyway!

 

I think anyone can roll "Greed" on anything they want. If they really want an item not for their class so they can use the skin or on an alt, then I'd say they ask in group chat first. Plenty of time to do that while it's rolling. If no one for that class truly needs it, then sure go for it. Personally some of the heavy armor for Mercs is pretty ugly so I've thought about getting some Sith heavy armor and remodding it. Although I'd only roll on somthing in a group setting if no one of that class needed it.

 

 

See, THIS person is playing the game the right way. I solute you!

[Creed_Buhallin]

Stop telling people what they should and shouldn't do.

...

 

Start playing right and those things won't happen.

You, sir, officially win the thread.

 

"Stop telling me what to do! I'm the only one who gets to tell people what to do!"

 

Or possibly: "I'm not telling you what to do! I'm just threatening to do everything I can to ruin your play experience if you don't do exactly what I want you to!"

 

Wow.

[Setanian]

I know this thread is massive so no one is ever going to read my post, but I'll give my 2c anyway!

 

I think anyone can roll "Greed" on anything they want. If they really want an item not for their class so they can use the skin or on an alt, then I'd say they ask in group chat first. Plenty of time to do that while it's rolling. If no one for that class truly needs it, then sure go for it. Personally some of the heavy armor for Mercs is pretty ugly so I've thought about getting some Sith heavy armor and remodding it. Although I'd only roll on somthing in a group setting if no one of that class needed it.

 

No-one, but no-one, needs to 'ask' someone else to decide if they can roll need or not. It is entirely up to the individual to decide that for themselves.

 

The sooner people realize that they have absolutely no say over how another player chooses to roll the dice, the better off we all will be.

[Calsetes]

No, there is no need. Stop lying to your self. You don't NEED it. You WANT it.

 

It goes to whoever wants it. Period. You don't get to dictate what want is valid and what isn't.

 

Exactly!

 

I get to dictate that, for I am Zod.

 

 

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!!!!

 

 

 

.... Ok, so I'm giving up being serious in the thread now, since the argument / discussion / conference is basically "this is what we think," "you can't tell me what to do, this is what we think," "no, we just can do what we want in charge, and this is what we think." It's a back-and-forth that's just repeating itself. Go out, play the game, and you'll get what you deserve for playing how you play it. You screw people over, you'll get screwed over. You help people out, you'll get help. Not in every situation, mind you, but overall you'll get help or screwed as you do to others.

 

 

Edit: Except for this one.

 

No-one, but no-one, needs to 'ask' someone else to decide if they can roll need or not. It is entirely up to the individual to decide that for themselves.

 

The sooner people realize that they have absolutely no say over how another player chooses to roll the dice, the better off we all will be.

 

You're right, nobody needs to ask before they hit it, just liek nobody needs to be warned that they're going to be booted. It's that "common courtesy" thing people talk about. Show a bit, and you'll get a bit. Show a lack of it, and you'll be shown a lack of it.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Calsetes

[Eldren]

And that's why I think it's so hard for people to agree on just how this sort of thing can be handled. I can very much see a "common good" when it comes to handling loot distribution. If a member of a party gets an upgrade to his equipment, that benefits me in the short term (for the remaining duration of the flashpoint or operation) it benefits him in the short term, it benefits the rest of the party in the short term. It benefits all of us in the long term if any of us ever run with that player again, and even if we don't, at the very least, we have one player out there who has better equipment than he had when he started. This is a good thing. I consider that a common good even if that's not something that can be strictly defined.

 

So yes, I prioritize that over someone who is willing to let anyone roll for anything as their whim suits them and where we may end up with instances of people walking away with equipment that does not benefit them stats-wise/power-wise but that they took only for looks purposes.

 

Usefulness takes precedence over vanity. Maybe that's a value you'd prefer I not be espousing because you don't like the idea that I'm putting my priorities in your face, but so be it. The system, as is, lends itself to this kind of abuse. And until people start being a bit more responsible with their use of the "Need" button, you're not going to convince me that there shouldn't be some more control hard-coded into the looting system, or at the very least, a more stringent community-based policy put in force on what's acceptable and what's not.

 

DG, I see your point. I just don't agree with its practice. I could make arguments about "long term vs. short term" til we're both blue in the (digital) face (with these forums' color scheme, we already are...).

 

I've even, in this thread and others like it, posited a fairly easy, if time-intensive on the front-end (from BioWare's perspective), solution: implement a companion loot box on each boss' loot table. It uses the same "smart loot" option that gives you gear for your class or your companions while you're out questing. Everyone rolls Need on it, and it generates one piece that's for one of the companions of the one who wins it. Might not be one they commonly use, but it solves the companion loot drama end of things.

 

In conjunction, all loot in Flashpoints is then given a class requirement, and you're unable to roll Need if you aren't part of that class.

 

More simply, they could do away with NBG, and go with Roll/Pass. With no tiered priorities in the loot rolls, it becomes simple: if you want it you roll, if you don't you pass. It's how NBG should work, but social conventions tacked onto a morally agnostic system are creating a functional reality much more complex.

 

I don't prioritize, personally. If someone else hits "Need", that's all I need to know. If I want an equal chance at that item, I hit "Need" too. Sometimes I'm the first one who hits "need", so others are welcome to do so. I'm not upset if I lose, I'm happy if I win, and either way I continue on, or if we're at the end, I go my own way afterwards.

[VanorDM]

No, not my way. The right way.

 

Yet, here you are deciding on what the 'right' way is.

 

If an items drops that would upgrade their PC more than any of the other PCs, pass on it if they need it.

 

So according to you, I can only need an item if it's more of an upgrade for me then someone else... The fact that it's an upgrade isn't good enough.

[Maccaroth]

VanorDM - Exactly my thoughts.

 

Back to the topic itself - from what I have seen that many people people are following specific pattern. Question is why.

 

Answer is "to maximize the group efficiency". Since in the flashpoints only the players are present it's better to socially allow need for those who would make direct use of it to help the group now and in the future and maximize the chance that each class/character will be able to roll for "his" gear. If there are more than one character who can make use of the loot it's acceptable to allow them all need for it.

 

If there is no need for character then many people take greed as default. To sell it, to give it to a companion and so on. Some ask if they can take need for a companion and I saw no one who had a problem with it.

 

There are people who will take need for a companion over the player on any loot. While they are allowed - by the game mechanic - it can be viewed as socially unacceptable. Why? Because he can take need for anyone's gear as (s)he see fit. Social contract which allowed you to take need for "your" type of gear case to exist. It's obvious that this person is a danger to all people in the group and will be alienated.

 

That's why people taking need for a companion before asking first (or discussing the loot rules) are not welcome by many people.