Why are so many people against Arena in Swtor?

[hategambit]

cause they suck at pvp.

 

and think that the only way to implement it is to copy exactly what wow did.

 

they fail to realize that they do not HAVE to copy wow.

 

i know its hard to understand.

[Gidoru]

1. because they are horrible bads that struggled to get out of 1500 in WoW arena and because most forum posters are terrible players.

 

2. They dont want to be judged based on a rating which they know will be low.

 

3. They think for some unknown reason that Arena and new sets of pvp gear have to go hand in hand. Arena does not need to have a different gear set with different stats as incentive. Some alteratives are, unique titles, unique armor models with similar stats to standard pvp gear, mounts ect.

 

4. They are apparently against game balance? Pass this one off to horrible bads thats roll FOTM classes and think they are MMO allstars with their overpowered classes.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gidoru

[rzrknight]

Arena is a horrible system , those who call it skill based are totally jking.

It is combo based , form the best combo , win.

 

Btw you dont really need to be smart to form the best combo just need to look at the best teams and their specs.

 

Really , want a skill based pvp ? Put 1x1 of the same class to fight naked , until then you will not convince me it is because it proves skill.

[Gidoru]

Arena is a horrible system , those who call it skill based are totally jking.

It is combo based , form the best combo , win.

 

Btw you dont really need to be smart to form the best combo just need to look at the best teams and their specs.

 

Really , want a skill based pvp ? Put 1x1 of the same class to fight naked , until then you will not convince me it is because it proves skill.

 

1400 WoW player obviously and your excuse for doing so poorly in arena was just that "my combo isnt as good"

 

So let me get this straight, its combo based, and not skill based?

 

So then if everyone at the top is picking a good combo, what determines who wins? How do you explain mirror match ups with one team consistently winning? Because apparently according to you its all just random. Why are there people playing the same combo as a #1 team at the bottom of the ladder? HMM........COULD IT BE SKILL? Ya i think so.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gidoru

[Noctournys]

1400 WoW player obviously

 

So let me get this straight, its combo based, and not skill based?

 

So then if everyone at the top is picking a good combo, what determines who wins? How do you explain mirror match ups with one team consistently winning? Because apparently according to you its all just random. Why are there people playing the same combo as a #1 team at the bottom of the ladder? HMM........COULD IT BE SKILL? Ya i think so.

 

26 pages of ....

 

yeah.

 

Why it is bad:

 

- It brings the focus down to whatever the "chosen size" is. It destroys focus/balance outside of that size. This is an often-quoted (both Tom Chilton and Greg Street) reason why Blizzard feels (looking back) that Arena was a giant mistake. It causes giant buff/nerf cycles (im not even talking about how PvE is affected) that arent fun for anyone and promote FOTM play.

 

- There is little real benefit. If you dont provide better gear via arena, then people wont do it. Arena got as many players as it did because it was the only way to acquire the "best" PvP gear. Players will always take the path of least resistance - particularly "power players" - all you have to do is look at how best-PvP-gear-availability was opened up in Cataclysm (convert raid points (valor? i dont even remember) into conquest points, buy gear, or do rated BGs) and the absolutely gigantic falloff in Arena participation (easily trackable via the armory these days). Less than 30% of people who were participating in Arena in Wrath are still doing it. Because they dont need to it.

 

If it DOES provide better rewards than regular PvP, you're just forcing people who dislike that playstyle to do that thing. Ill quit PvPing if Arena becomes the venue for the best gear. Not because im bad at PvP, but because i find Deathmatch to be the least stimulating form of PvP there is, which leands me to:

 

- The proponents of Arena narrowly define "PvP" as "Deathmatch". Deathmatch is boring and extremely narrow, and promotes and extremely narrow skillset. It's a small-scale tactical excercise at best.

 

A lot of people understand that PvP means a lot more than just "Deathmatch" - there's a reason that most non-console MLG tournaments these days are in objective based, team-based games. It's because Deathmatch just isnt stimulating to as wide of an audience.

 

I like PvP. I dislike deathmatch. Im strategic thinker and planner, and a macro-scale leader. I provide support to my team and direct them. That's the kind of thing i do. It's just as viable a skill as being super-leet at killing people (not that im bad at that), but by recognzing changing battlefield conditions and knowing when and how to act to take out our enemies or outmaneuver them, im also PvPing.

 

Arena disrupts and destroys the community. All you have to do is look at WoW to see that. The mentality of the Arena e-jocks finds them held in almost universal disdain by the other people who play the game with them. The fact that theyre a stunningly small minority is also telling.

[WoLFpwr]

This game is supposed to be world pvp empire vs republic ''the war'' not some friggin 4 vs 4 cheap TDM , go play CoD lol ... warzones are more then enough and ilum is a joke now put in tiny arenas ? WTH

[iceperson]

1. because they are horrible bads that struggled to get out of 1500 in WoW arena and because most forum posters are terrible players.

 

2. They dont want to be judged based on a rating which they know will be low.

 

3. They think for some unknown reason that Arena and new sets of pvp gear have to go hand in hand. Arena does not need to have a different gear set with different stats as incentive. Some alteratives are, unique titles, unique armor models with similar stats to standard pvp gear, mounts ect.

 

4. They are apparently against game balance? Pass this one off to horrible bads thats roll FOTM classes and think they are MMO allstars with their overpowered classes.

 

^^^

 

i think this is why the vast majority of people don't want arena. no, not the content of his post, but that it attracts people like the poster. want to destroy a gaming community? introduce "arena" type play and then balance the game around it destroying everything interesting and unique about every class in the process. then /facepalm when you realize that you're running off everyone but the "jersey shore" equivalent of the mmo world.

[Badlander]

I will tell you why. Bio CAN'T even figure out the pvp as it is. If you think that the QQ posts are bad now bring arena into the mix. Then everything will be nerfed to death. Edited February 3, 2012 by Badlander

[Gidoru]

Man what a joke of a post.

 

26 pages of ....

 

yeah.

 

Why it is bad:

 

- It brings the focus down to whatever the "chosen size" is. It destroys focus/balance outside of that size. This is an often-quoted (both Tom Chilton and Greg Street) reason why Blizzard feels (looking back) that Arena was a giant mistake. It causes giant buff/nerf cycles (im not even talking about how PvE is affected) that arent fun for anyone and promote FOTM play.

 

Awesome, quote the words of people that are utterly imcompetent and cant balance a game, not because its not possible, but because they dont know what they are doing.

 

Any competitive arena player can list for you MANY MANY balance changes made by Blizzard that were utterly mind boggling and stupid. Any competent player could tell the changes were ridiculous without even testing them, yet they were patched to live anyway.

 

Whats worse, is people like you, that were probably 1500 rated players, and somehow think they know anything about game balance. Explain to me how you know whats what in a game when you are basically playing at the bottom of a ladder system? You are at the bottom because you are bad and dont know what you're doing.

 

- There is little real benefit. If you dont provide better gear via arena, then people wont do it. Arena got as many players as it did because it was the only way to acquire the "best" PvP gear. Players will always take the path of least resistance - particularly "power players" - all you have to do is look at how best-PvP-gear-availability was opened up in Cataclysm (convert raid points (valor? i dont even remember) into conquest points, buy gear, or do rated BGs) and the absolutely gigantic falloff in Arena participation (easily trackable via the armory these days). Less than 30% of people who were participating in Arena in Wrath are still doing it. Because they dont need to it.

 

If it DOES provide better rewards than regular PvP, you're just forcing people who dislike that playstyle to do that thing. Ill quit PvPing if Arena becomes the venue for the best gear. Not because im bad at PvP, but because i find Deathmatch to be the least stimulating form of PvP there is, which leands me to:

 

So explain to me what the benefit of is playing any competitive game? Im pretty sure playing some FPS games does not give you 'better gear'. Pretty sure all those people playing strategy games like Starcraft arent doing it for 'better gear' either. The incentive is the ladder and rating system. The incentive is other things, like addition gear with different aesthetics not stats and things like mounts and titles.

 

I like PvP. I dislike deathmatch. Im strategic thinker and planner, and a macro-scale leader. I provide support to my team and direct them. That's the kind of thing i do. It's just as viable a skill as being super-leet at killing people (not that im bad at that), but by recognzing changing battlefield conditions and knowing when and how to act to take out our enemies or outmaneuver them, im also PvPing.

 

Really? What the hell are you even talking about? Because it seems like a bunch of garbage you tell yourself to make you feel better about yourself for being horrible at games.

 

Thinker? Planner? Leader? lol? I fail to see any how any of this garbage you are spewing has any in game relevance. So you do all these magically things, that translates to doing what exactly in the game? Nothing? Maybe on your RP server.

 

Arena disrupts and destroys the community. All you have to do is look at WoW to see that. The mentality of the Arena e-jocks finds them held in almost universal disdain by the other people who play the game with them. The fact that theyre a stunningly small minority is also telling.

 

As opposed to what already exists with PvP guilds and premade Warzone groups? I fail to see how thats much different.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gidoru

[Roks]

Things they need to do before worrying about an arena system.

 

Fix PVP

Fix Ilum

Fix resolve bar

Fix ability lag

 

 

Plus I would prefer not to have it, just to keep WZ's and Ilum full. I am a good pvp'r and would do quite well in arena's but they need to focus on warzones imo.

 

 

I have to agree. Fix your important problems. PVP is hurting bad in the game. Gear imbalance to new 50s compared to old 50s with full bm gear sucks. So those 50s are playing less and less. Ilum needs a ton of love.

 

And hell no, we do not need a damn arena system. Although an area where it is FFA would be different. But no rewards for killing people in there.

[GrumpySwe]

1. because they are horrible bads that struggled to get out of 1500 in WoW arena and because most forum posters are terrible players.

 

2. They dont want to be judged based on a rating which they know will be low.

 

3. They think for some unknown reason that Arena and new sets of pvp gear have to go hand in hand. Arena does not need to have a different gear set with different stats as incentive. Some alteratives are, unique titles, unique armor models with similar stats to standard pvp gear, mounts ect.

 

4. They are apparently against game balance? Pass this one off to horrible bads thats roll FOTM classes and think they are MMO allstars with their overpowered classes.

 

Saying everyone that doesn't want arena are bad at playing the game really isn't the way to go to get people over to your side. What I don't like about ranked gameplay is that it usually attracts ******es and whiners (no havent played wow so don't know how it was there not do i have a e-peen rank ).

 

Also objectiveless gameplay is boring as hell, if many want it fine implement it aslong as there is NOT better gear in arena then elsewhere and also that BW has added more normal warzones and fixed the problems that exist.

Edited February 3, 2012 by GrumpySwe

[Noctournys]

Man what a joke of a post.

 

 

 

Awesome, quote the words of people that are utterly imcompetent and cant balance a game, not because its not possible, but because they dont know what they are doing.

 

You cant have it both ways; either Arena is the Big Thing that all the cool kids do and is balanced and that's where real PvP "skill" lies.. or it isn't. Make up your mind.

 

And irregardless of their skill at balancing their game, they CAN tell you, with absolute authority, if they feel it fractured their community or did undesireable things to their game. Guess what? It did.

 

Any competitive arena player can list for you MANY MANY balance changes made by Blizzard that were utterly mind boggling and stupid. Any competent player could tell the changes were ridiculous without even testing them, yet they were patched to live anyway.

 

It doesn't matter if the nerfs were deserved, balanced, unbalanced.. nothing. That has nothing at all - NOTHING - to do with what i said. What i said was, attempts at balancing for the micro game cause wild buff nerf swings - provably true - and that they aren't fun for people - true.

 

Whats worse, is people like you, that were probably 1500 rated players,

 

I like the ad-hominem, i really do... but i hate to break your heart: Gladiator in S1 and S2, with a non-FOTM team comp and a non pidgeonhole, non-FOTM spec. Got to about 2050 in S3 before all three of us realized that hey, we already had our entire set of gear and.. we really, really hated Arena, and the only reason we were doing it was gear. So we stopped.

 

and somehow think they know anything about game balance. Explain to me how you know whats what in a game when you are basically playing at the bottom of a ladder system? You are at the bottom because you are bad and dont know what you're doing.

 

Um.. actually, i design game systems professionally; tabletop, live action, traditional board games, and computer games. Not to mention it has nothing to do with balance. Nothing in my entire argument had to do with balance, other than the general statement that balancing for a micro game (3v3) renders balance of the macro game utterly impossible, which is, quite honestly, just a statement of fact.

 

So explain to me what the benefit of is playing any competitive game? Im pretty sure playing some FPS games does not give you 'better gear'.

 

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, with all of the major franchises now having exp gain, levels, unlockable weapons, armor and perqs.

 

Pretty sure all those people playing strategy games like Starcraft arent doing it for 'better gear' either. The incentive is the ladder and rating system. The incentive is other things, like addition gear with different aesthetics not stats and things like mounts and titles.

 

Other than RTSes, again, you're wrong. And RTSes are fading *fast* in Western culture. SC2 isnt even played by half as many people as regularly played SC1... in fact, in NA, SC1 still has more regular players.

 

Really? What the hell are you even talking about? Because it seems like a bunch of garbage you tell yourself to make you feel better about yourself for being horrible at games.

 

Do you even know what the difference between tactics and strategy is? Im guessing not.

 

Can you comprehend a game where Kill != Win?

 

Thinker? Planner? Leader? lol? I fail to see any how any of this garbage you are spewing has any in game relevance. So you do all these magically things, that translates to doing what exactly in the game?

 

Reading your team's next move, and getting my guys in position to head you off before you get there, or, more likely back-cap you or otherwise punish you for making it. Understanding when we've lost an objective and getting my guys to pull out and go cap something else before you can recover and react, or elsewise planning a way to beat your LOLDEATHMATCHPRO!!!111!!1!! mentality into the dirt.

 

Lets do some logic exercises:

 

You're playing Huttball. Your ball carrier is halfway down the railings to the enemy goal. Four enemy players are harasing the mid. What do you?

 

Which two nodes should you be capping first in Alderaan? Why?

 

you're playing Huttball, and you kill the enemy ball carrier while he is near your goal, and you have recieved the ball - four of his teammates are still nearby or attacking you - what do you do?

Edited February 3, 2012 by Noctournys

[Drokisannath]

Why are so many people against Arena in Swtor?

 

Because most of them are bad and know they won't be able to compete and blame class balance or FOTM for their badness.

[MarcoMontana]

Arena ruined WOW PVP!

 

 

Once Arena was implemented world PVP died, gear was statistically changed because of arenas, PVP became even more gear dependent and instead of skill it was based on whom had more time to grind arena for the best in slot gear.

 

People like myself not having the time to do arenas onlt world PVP and Battle Grounds I could not ascertain that gear and was always at a disadvantage because of it, it created a massive disassociation between players and segregated the community into ARENA Gladiators / BG Heros / Raiders!

 

 

Soon after the classes suffered from Class Normalization based on ARENA team make ups.... the rest was ALL down hill....

[Drokisannath]

Arena ruined WOW PVP!

 

 

Once Arena was implemented world PVP died, gear was statistically changed because of arenas, PVP became even more gear dependent and instead of skill it was based on whom had more time to grind arena for the best in slot gear.

 

People like myself not having the time to do arenas onlt world PVP and Battle Grounds I could not ascertain that gear and was always at a disadvantage because of it, it created a massive disassociation between players and segregated the community into ARENA Gladiators / BG Heros / Raiders!

 

 

Soon after the classes suffered from Class Normalization based on ARENA team make ups.... the rest was ALL down hill....

 

Putting red color and big size on your argument is not gonna make it true.

[MarcoMontana]

Putting red color and big size on your argument is not gonna make it true.

 

Its absolutely true!

[Carbonated]

If you want arena here I will support it on 2 conditions.

 

1. Its skill based. You arena fans will go "but it is skill based" My exp of it was that it was cookie cutter combos and most 2k rated teams are 60-70% win ratio. 70% to get top rating when its only like 100 games is a grind and luck not skill. Not to mention people sold a spot to get 2k+ rating so you could get the gear.

 

2. No gear from it. Some people are saying they want ratings so they can be competitive. If thats the case then no gear should come from it. Maybe tokens from already obtainable gear but nothing arena only. I dont want to have to do a grind to compete in another grind aspect of the game.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Carbonated

[Sorenia]

What people don't want is Arenas with special gear rewards. Also PvP balance should be about warzones. Edited February 3, 2012 by Sorenia

[Noctournys]

Putting red color and big size on your argument is not gonna make it true.

 

Perhaps not, but the fact that there are sites and utilities to datamine the armory for comprehensive stats pertaining to everything about WoW certainly helps...

 

and the stats dont lie. Arena participation has gone down every season since the first, and is now not even 20% of what it was in S1.

[Ghingis]

There is two reasons for this;

 

1. People came from WoW, and think that arenas destroyed the balance simply because the developers were high when they made every single PvP change in that game.

 

2. Most people simply are not good enough to compete at a high level in arenas, so instead of that they want to just have WZ's (BG's) because their personal skill in there is not as noticeable as it is in arenas, where you mainly see who's good and who isnt.

 

People can try and argue against this, but its simply just fact.

An arena system with good developers wont hurt the overall game at all, it will just increase the PvP enjoyment for everyone who wants to play at a competitive level.

 

I have personally unsubbed for now since I have everything that PvP can offer in terms of gear/rank, just waiting for arenas to come before i resub.

[Tjungo]

Arena ruined WOW PVP!

 

 

Once Arena was implemented world PVP died, gear was statistically changed because of arenas, PVP became even more gear dependent and instead of skill it was based on whom had more time to grind arena for the best in slot gear.

 

 

World PvP died long before arenas, it died back when BG's became an alternative that offered reasonably quick, interesting and fair PvP as opposed to the mess that was world PvP. The simple fact is that players chose instanced over world PvP because they enjoyed it more and have continued doing so.

 

Claiming that PvP got more gear dependent is nonsense. Prior to arenas PvP was dominated by raiders often sporting a 2-3+ tier gear advantage. By the end of vanilla a well geared player could one shot a normal geared one. After arena and the so called "wellfare" kit got introduced the gap was narrowed into a 1 tier advantage, adding in the point that you had to PvP to get PvP gear. the average player was far mor competitive in terms of gear post arena than pre.

 

Time grinding arena is a funny idea given the 10 games needed for points limit. You could not advance in arenas on time alone, you had to win games, making it unfarmable. There was also no direct corrolation between time spent and points earned. Many people got good ratings and gear from minimal time spent, they simply won the games they did play.

 

 

People like myself not having the time to do arenas onlt world PVP and Battle Grounds I could not ascertain that gear and was always at a disadvantage because of it, it created a massive disassociation between players and segregated the community into ARENA Gladiators / BG Heros / Raiders!

 

 

You were at no larger disadvantage than you would have been in vanilla, in fact it would be notably less since you could save up points for a decent PvP kit without either raiding or honorfarming.

 

This claimed segregation of the community is a false distinction since many people did all of these. It was then as before spilt between the "hard core" active players who aimed at progressing through the game and the more cassual player who didn't. this was no different from any other timer or indeed game.

 

 

Soon after the classes suffered from Class Normalization based on ARENA team make ups.... the rest was ALL down hill....

 

Class normalization came as much, or more from a balancing of PvE raids, especially 10 man raids. the philosophy of bring the player not the class was way more important for PvE development than it ever was for arenas. The idea about arena driving strange class changes is extremely exaggerated, most changes mentioned had solid PvE reasons as well and many changes were made simply for PvE reasons.

[johnharris]

I have 2 level 50 Battlemasters and when you get there the game grinds to a halt there is nothing to do. Arena would be something. I do my ilum daily dont bother with the WZ daily cos of the bug and go and PVP in another game.

[Llilium]

Warhammer online specifically implented a completely new game for arenas rather than integrate into their MMO. THAT is how much arena affects an MMO. Mythic/Bioware knows this.

 

 

 

its not going to happen, and i don't want it in my game

 

 

<- multiglad saying this. I'm not playing wow for a reason. because i want something differant. i want a new mmo. ToR is my new mmo. leave WoW out of my ToR.

[Anbokr]

I don't mind 5v5 arena, it's 3v3 and 2v2 arena I don't want to see. It's nigh impossible to balance the game in these two brackets, there will always be 2-3 dominant comps/classes, and it just becomes a headache for players and developers.

[Sarnax]

I dont mind arena, as long as bioware doesnt balance the whole game around it. Like another mmo we all know. Balancing classes JUST based off arena would kill this game, at least kill it for me.