Great Job Bioware on Kaon Under Siege FP

[Chiasmus]

I really enjoyed this flashpoint as well and thought it was a truly unique experience that I've not seen in any MMO before. The horror atmosphere was brilliant and worked perfectly, even if many of the story elements were age old clichés. It was also pleasant to do a flashpoint that was better tuned than many of the launch hard modes, and without any significant bugs.

 

The boss difficulty felt like a bit of a roller-coaster, with the optional boss being much more difficult than anything in there. Still, it was a very good experience and I'm looking forward to the next part of the storyline.

[Rabix]

can't really complain about the bonus/optional boss being too hard, since it's not mandatory

 

I would be more upset with it if it only dropped crystals like some of the optional bosses, but the fact that it drops another headpiece is amazing.

 

great FP for sure

[Battyone]

yeah we cc ed 2 of them and shocked one at a time, I'm the healer and I had problems with the rockets, cannot heal everybody and we usually died after we kill all 3 the robots. I think the problem was that they were killing the robots too slowly, since the problem was that after we killed all of them we usually was at low health because of the rockets.

 

Gonna try again today and see if we can do him, thanks for the tips anyway!

 

Rockets have splash, make sure the group spreads. I had more problems with the tank eating probe droid that the rest of the group and rockets. Tell em to pop a medpack after 2 hits if it's that harsh on ya.

[Jovial_Sorrow]

It reminded me so much of L4D (then again, it was practically a homage to the game, lol), which I thoroughly enjoyed. I think they did a great job on this fp, and I can't wait until the second half is released!

 

Yeah. I love L4D so naturally I loved this FP. L4D with lightsabers? Forget about it! It was funny, because as my friends and I went through the instance, we didn't even bother to use any of the names of the mobs, we just kept calling out Smoker or Boomer etc. It was pretty fun.

[hardicon]

this flashpoint is probably the best flashpoint after boarding party which was just awesome for level 10 with the story and all. the rest never matched up to bt imo. kaon under siege was really well done. i love how you are walking in the dark and you hear a growl. that instantly got me looking around for what was growling.

 

tips on the robot boss. he doesnt enrage so its not solely a dps race. its more about steady dps and staying alive. when the probes drop, cc 2 of them, the tank pulls the other and pulls it back away from the other two, kill it and repeat till all three are dead. this needs to be fairly quickly so he doesnt drop another set. it shouldnt happen but both times we have done it he has dropped two sets of probes on us in one of the fights, normally the second try. keep any personal shields you may have up like static barrier, when the probes are down throw everything at the boss. you should be killing him after the second droid phase, if not dps is probably low.

[Nessirin]

Loved the hint of left 4 dead in this FP.

[Aethyn]

I enjoy it quite a bit as well. The atmosphere the designers created is very well done. Although the floating lights get annoying quickly.

 

The bonus boss is one tough nut but we enjoyed finally taking him down. The final boss is somewhat underwhelming after the optional.

 

Well done and thank you.

 

P.S. Group usable drops (We actually had a 100k credit bet on whether or not the final helmet would be Smuggler) and armstech schematics post haste.

[Tower]

I could have done without the first fight with the cannon but other then that its AWESOME. I love the ambiance in this flashpoint. One instance I always loved in WoW was Stratholm. I enjoyed the city landscape and so on. Even though I have been to Kaon many times now, its still my favorite one.

[Aethyn]

I liked the "Wave" mechanic. We were dissapointed that a huge, nasty, ugly Uber boss didn't spawn.

[Ardim]

I just did this Flashpoint yesterday on HM for the first time with three others who were relatively fresh (One of my groupmates did it once already though).

 

Needless to say, it certainly kept us on our toes with the way enemies would keep popping out. Despite us dying several times, we had an absolute blast. My favorite part was probably the Behemoth, when I spied those NPCs I was like "Yes, safety!" then the Behemoth popped out, killed them all, and I went "Oh come on! :("

[Tyraelium]

One heck of a terrific zone guys, very well done. Finished it on Hardmode this evening, the optional boss is a pain but allot of fun. They did a great job with the 'spooky' lighting and the trash mobs certainly kept us on our toes.

 

Can't wait for the next one.

 

lol @ people who find this FP original.

 

Obviously never played Left4Dead. Not sure if they worked together or if BioWare just straight ripped them off.

[Varteras]

lol @ people who find this FP original.

 

Obviously never played Left4Dead. Not sure if they worked together or if BioWare just straight ripped them off.

 

1) Left 4 Dead is not an MMO.

2) Homages are not ripoffs.

3) If something like this did not exist in previous MMOs then it is, infact, original. Original for the genre.

[Yomitako]

Pills here!

[Suzina]

I agree. My favorite instance.

 

 

I liked when the bonus dropped a helmet, because it's the hardest boss in 4-man flashpoints, but oh well.

[Demarcc]

We ran this FP on HM right after the content patch it was released in.

 

First thing I did was send in feedback asking for a *torchey* pet to be available in stores !!

 

A CSR actually responded to me noting that *torchey* was not planned as a pet but the feedback would be passed to the team dealing with cosmetic issues ... looking for a *torchey* pet of my own here soon !

 

We ran the crap out of this instance for over a week and loved it, every time we got to the first box cries of *torchey!!* would be heard on vent.

 

Deff looking foward to the next installment !! We already have our group set to go as soon as the servers come up from the 1.2 patch ! (And an ops raid that night too .. will be a full day!)

[Hxxr]

Indeed, one of the best instances I've seen, including other games. The only thing that bothers me is that the last boss (or rather group of bosses) is such a pushover ... not well tuned at all.

Bonus Boss is a lot more to my taste though, good damage output, needs a lot of coordinationn and quick reaction not just for a single role, but tanks, healer and dps alike.

[Moestuin]

How we normally defeat the bonus boss is we just kite him back to where the imperials are. They will help in taking him down and he will go down very quickly with so many of them (if you kept most of them alive during the ambush event). The adds will spawn all the way where you picked him up, so they will catch up about 1 minute after he is dead. Again the imperials will help getting rid of them.

 

The fight is very easy this way, its only an annoying long walk back.

[DaveMash]

How we normally defeat the bonus boss is we just kite him back to where the imperials are. They will help in taking him down and he will go down very quickly with so many of them (if you kept most of them alive during the ambush event). The adds will spawn all the way where you picked him up, so they will catch up about 1 minute after he is dead. Again the imperials will help getting rid of them.

 

The fight is very easy this way, its only an annoying long walk back.

 

We used to draw him back to the zone where you had to fight the Behemoth. Just tank him next to an explosive barrell - works the same way as with the behemoth. One huge bonus: You don't have to deal with those adds for a looong time

[Eortotai]

Agreed! This FP was quite fun and engaging. Keep up the great work, and keep the Flashpoints original!

 

As a side note, give us that torch as a pet. ^-^

[Loladarulz]

Kaon is cool, nice ambient, great FP.

[The_FeniX]

I'd like to first say, I like Kaon. It's one of the few flashpoints I don't mind running. I will also say I like it because it's basically Star Wars L4Dead. That said, this post made me cringe.

 

1) Left 4 Dead is not an MMO.

Irrelevant to deciding if something is an homage or a rip-off (or both, really).

2) Homages are not ripoffs.

Yes they are, by their nature. You're using elements of another persons work in your own. Ripoff just has a negative connotation. But if I tell you a funny story about Bob and you go around telling people the same story, except about Jim.... yea, that's ripping people off. I wish there was some corny line like "The shuttle is gone, we've just been.... Left for Dead." Who knows, maybe there is something like that, I tend to zone out the voice acting.

3) If something like this did not exist in previous MMOs then it is, infact, original. Original for the genre.

That's just a non-argument from an ethical and legal standpoint and pretty insulting as well. James Cameron pulls this all the time and it's cost him some (of his substantial) warchest over the years. Avatar being just the latest in "hommages" that were large ripoffs of other writer's ideas. Just because Avatar was stolen from a book doesn't make it original because he made a movie.

 

Kaon skirts a fine-line between homage and "rip-off." There are so many elements taken directly from Left 4 dead, including the mobs themselves being mirrors of Left 4 Dead infected, the horde events (first "boss"), and extra mobs spawn (with distant screams to match).

[Dreary]

We used to draw him back to the zone where you had to fight the Behemoth. Just tank him next to an explosive barrell - works the same way as with the behemoth. One huge bonus: You don't have to deal with those adds for a looong time

 

LOL... The barrels do nothing, nice try.

[Varteras]

I'd like to first say, I like Kaon. It's one of the few flashpoints I don't mind running. I will also say I like it because it's basically Star Wars L4Dead. That said, this post made me cringe.

 

Cringe? Really? You should probably chill then.

 

Irrelevant to deciding if something is an homage or a rip-off (or both, really).

 

I used that to establish a barrier. No one typically cares if a genre takes a page from a different one. However, when two games take from one another in the same genre people cry foul and the forums are in flames. I threw that out there as a point for the people who might not be aware that Left4Dead is not an MMO. I wasn't arguing that person in particular. Perhaps I should have been a bit more specific.

 

Yes they are, by their nature. You're using elements of another persons work in your own. Ripoff just has a negative connotation. But if I tell you a funny story about Bob and you go around telling people the same story, except about Jim.... yea, that's ripping people off. I wish there was some corny line like "The shuttle is gone, we've just been.... Left for Dead." Who knows, maybe there is something like that, I tend to zone out the voice acting.

 

Yes the difference between an homage and a ripoff is intention. I think they made it pretty obvious which way they were going with it.

 

That's just a non-argument from an ethical and legal standpoint and pretty insulting as well. James Cameron pulls this all the time and it's cost him some (of his substantial) warchest over the years. Avatar being just the latest in "hommages" that were large ripoffs of other writer's ideas. Just because Avatar was stolen from a book doesn't make it original because he made a movie.

 

Insulting? Again... really?

 

It makes it something original for the genre. When was the last time you found yourself in a dungeon in some MMO that was obviously a take on modern survival horror? True originality these days is scarce without diving into the completely absurd because so many things have already been done. Sometimes you have to take something unoriginal and put it into a different setting just to be original.

 

It is not the same if someone takes an original work and makes it the premise for their entire creation compared to someone who just took a page and used it in a different setting for even one small part of the story.

 

Kaon skirts a fine-line between homage and "rip-off." There are so many elements taken directly from Left 4 dead, including the mobs themselves being mirrors of Left 4 Dead infected, the horde events (first "boss"), and extra mobs spawn (with distant screams to match).

 

Bioware wanted a survival horror theme to one of their Flashpoints and this was the result. Instead of trying to disguise what it was they gave us obvious references to their inspiration. Honestly at this point show me a story about infectious, zombie-like outbreaks that can be considered original. Left4Dead itself isn't even all that original. As I said, it's original in the sense that it was the first time (that I'm aware of) that a developer gave us a dungeon based on modern survival horror elements in an MMO. It was an homage to a completely different genre of videogames.

 

Considering the very large amount of positive feedback they're receiving on it I'd say they succeeded.

[The_FeniX]

Yes the difference between an homage and a ripoff is intention. I think they made it pretty obvious which way they were going with it.

I think BWs intention is to make money. And considering Lucasarts track record when it comes to protecting their IP even from non-profit groups, I find the whole issue hilarious. I doubt valve even cares. I don't either, but the idea that any of the good content in Kaon is original is just not there for me.

 

Bioware wanted a survival horror theme to one of their Flashpoints and this was the result. Instead of trying to disguise what it was they gave us obvious references to their inspiration.

What references to L4Dead did they make? If you haven't played the game, you'd think 70% of Kaon was an original idea from BW. I've seen nothing referencing valve or L4Dead in interviews or from official sources.

 

This was much more than a reference to another work. A reference is Hugo Weaving's line in Captain America: "Hitler digs for trinkets in the desert." By your logic, Captain America going to Egypt and finding the "vessel of the holy pact" would be an "homage."

 

Honestly at this point show me a story about infectious, zombie-like outbreaks that can be considered original.

"Honestly at this point, show me a story about space-faring civilizations locked in constant war that can be considered original."

 

The setting isn't what makes L4Dead original, it's the gameplay concepts they implemented in an established genre. That the infected are even zombies is supurflous to the game itself with the exception that people like killing zombies. They could be aliens or demons and the game wouldn't play out differently.

 

Left4Dead itself isn't even all that original.

So, L4Dead isn't original, but BW takes multiple gameplay concepts whole-sale from it and implements them into roughly 70% of an instance and that is original?

 

Double-standard much?

 

Considering the very large amount of positive feedback they're receiving on it I'd say they succeeded.

Yea, Avatar and The Lion King both made millions taking other people's ideas, changing them a bit (or not at all with Lion King), and putting them on a big screen. Theft of people's ideas can pay-off. Who knew?

[Varteras]

I think BWs intention is to make money. And considering Lucasarts track record when it comes to protecting their IP even from non-profit groups, I find the whole issue hilarious. I doubt valve even cares. I don't either, but the idea that any of the good content in Kaon is original is just not there for me.

 

Ofcourse they want to make money off of this but Bioware is not Lucasarts. However aggressive Lucasarts is when protecting their IPs cannot be somehow faulted onto Bioware.

 

What references to L4Dead did they make? If you haven't played the game, you'd think 70% of Kaon was an original idea from BW. I've seen nothing referencing valve or L4Dead in interviews or from official sources.

 

Perhaps a very large portion of that Flashpoint? If they don't qualify as references how about nods? Winks? Tongues-in-cheeks? If you didn't play Left4Dead it's not up to Bioware to come out and say "hey guys there's this game called L4D...". If you don't know what L4D is you're not going to understand what they're trying to say anyways even if they quite literally say in a cutscene "...it's like we were.... left for dead". If you know what it is then you'll pick up on it as so many people apparently have.

 

Nothing in interviews or official sources? Has anyone asked them about the Flashpoint and its inspiration? If they did and Bioware said nothing of Valve or L4D then yes I will call BS and stand with you on this but Bioware is not obligated to come out and say it without prompting. Just like Blizzard never had to with any of their references. Obvious or obscure.

 

This was much more than a reference to another work. A reference is Hugo Weaving's line in Captain America: "Hitler digs for trinkets in the desert." By your logic, Captain America going to Egypt and finding the "vessel of the holy pact" would be an "homage."

 

Except that this is one little Flashpoint in a massive game that combined established Star Wars lore with elements of another game.

 

"Honestly at this point, show me a story about space-faring civilizations locked in constant war that can be considered original."

 

The setting isn't what makes L4Dead original, it's the gameplay concepts they implemented in an established genre. That the infected are even zombies is supurflous to the game itself with the exception that people like killing zombies. They could be aliens or demons and the game wouldn't play out differently.

 

Point being that trying to do anything original these days is next to impossible because you could even nitpick at Left4Dead's gameplay elements and say they're not original unless combined into what Left4Dead became.

 

So, L4Dead isn't original, but BW takes multiple gameplay concepts whole-sale from it and implements them into roughly 70% of an instance and that is original?

 

Double-standard much?

 

No because you're dodging my point. My point is not whether Kaon Under Siege is orignal in and of itself. Because it is not. What is original is the situation like I have been trying to say but apparently you either don't get it or don't want to. So I'll use caps. A DUNGEON THAT IS USING ELEMENTS OF MODERN SURVIVAL HORROR IS ORIGINAL IN THAT IT HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN IN OTHER MMOs! Just like the first movie about zombies would have been the original zombie movie regardless of what was written about zombies in the past. A book talking about zombies would be the original zombie book. A first person shooter about zombies would be original in that it is the first FPS with zombies in it regardless of the fact that zombies and first person shooters existed separately in the past.

 

Yea, Avatar and The Lion King both made millions taking other people's ideas, changing them a bit (or not at all with Lion King), and putting them on a big screen. Theft of people's ideas can pay-off. Who knew?

 

I was making a general remark not actually aimed at the conversation. An aside if you will. Don't get your panties in a twist.

 

If it seems like I sometimes start to stray I apologize. I haven't been feeling all too well the last couple days. Please don't take anything I say too seriously even if it seems like I'm trying to fight about something. Ultimately none of this matters anyways.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Varteras