Operative Nerf is too much

[Mavin]

No.

 

Three shotting mobs was the operatives ONLY real option.

 

1) No utility.

2) Paper defense.

3) Paper Armor.

4) Evasion works against melee and ranged attacks, but not against force and tech attacks.

5) required 4m range.

6) No gap closer.

 

 

The irony is that Im watching all the people who played ops (all four of us in the fifty's bracket, in gear.) rerolling. Not because we cant roflstomp, but because a light armor wearer with half a brain and a sheild up, laughs off hidden strike, electrocutes us, pops force sprint, resheilds, and heals the damage before we can get out of the stun.

 

You want to keep saying l2p. No worries. It will be hilarious when you get roflstomped by EVERYONE in the fifties bracket, while you pug your way to BM.

 

Enjoy it.

 

 

Completely agree, the class is a mess. I rolled my Operative to 50 and just can not stand to play it. So I finished rolling my Merc to 50 and never login to my operative unless its to craft.

 

It has little to do with the nerf IMO but more to with poor class design. There is a reason why you rarely see Operatives in Warzones at 50.

 

Hats off to those that can play it, but is obvious by the number of Operatives you see in PvE and PvP that the class as major problems.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Mavin

[Vakyoom]

surge/crit nerfs just hurt the class even more. Our OP medic has been livid since he got brought from 93% surge to ~77% (which is apparently the cap)... crit chance dropped too since he had to switch out all the useless extra surge from his enhancements...

 

So now he's got more power/alacrity since that's what is force fed to most healers on their gear, and yes alacrity is still marginally worthless. doesn't reduce the gcd at all, so no faster application of kolto probe... you're only casting faster, which is using up your pitiful energy even faster without actually doing more HpS... Power is a crappy exchange for crit/surge because healers only get a 1:.14 ratio from power(where dps gets a 1:.21 power ratio)

 

I really feel for operatives right now, doesn't seem to make them want to do anything. Lethality is fun but only 1 way to make your TA. ArPen on concealment is nerfed so we get wrecked before our job's done. Medic is getting blindsided while they try and fix other useless crap...

 

Bioware is about to lose a lot of subscriptions if they don't fix this game. They keep taking away from ops (and other things that revolve around ops) without giving back to them in any other fashion.

 

Take away the burst, without giving back extra defense or sustained damage for that matter... That's not how you balance things, that's how you ruin games.

 

At least on my marauder i can take actually out my target before i get focused to the ground by 4 sages. (but lets not touch sages bioware, theyre perfect)

 

 

 

edit -- also, 1.1.4 says nothing about any class changes. So wait 2 MORE week on top of 2 weeks already to see any changes.

 

Don't worry bioware, take your time while you ruin the game for half your subscribers (i mean the surge nerf in addition to the ops, not to mention ignoring major operations bugs and general game play functionality). Keep it up, youre really starting to piss people off.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Vakyoom

[pairadox]

No one said "FREE Backstabs". What are you reading the forums with an Ouija board?

 

The cost would be the balance, just like Sin/Shadow backstabs. If the cost needed to be adjusted then so be it, but it would fix Operatives pathetic sustained damage, without messing with our opening burst too much.

 

Because currently you spec into no cost backstabs. So then you remove the CD as per your suggestions, and you get....

 

No cost/No Cooldown Backstabs.

 

Oh wait, you didnt read the talent tree in concealment.

Third Tier Waylay Reduces the cost of Backstab by 10 energy.

Oh, and look at that, the cost of Backstab currently is 10 energy.

 

Your suggestion:

 

Originally Posted by Xavory

You wana fix concealment ops?

 

Remove the CD on Backstab.

 

Fixed.

 

Which leads to no cost, no cooldown backstabs.

 

So yeah, I guess Im reading the forums with an ouija board.

 

Its called Torhead.

 

Check it out sometime.

[deverin]

Back to the top with you!

[Hygaraa]

Hi everyone.

 

IMHO, operatives/smugglers need a nerf.

 

Either being with their opening burst dps or some stun abilities, they are in fact overpowered in some aspects.

 

I play a sith Sorc as a healer. Whenever an op/smugg comes near me i'm as good as dead with absolutely no chance of fight back.

 

They open up with a stabb stun removing almost instantely more than half my HP.

While in stun i can´t cast anything to heal or fight back.

 

When i eventually break the stun and am already down to 1/3 HP, guess what, get stunned again and there goes the 1/3 HP that was left. Where is there a fight back chance in this??

 

If i do manage to fight back, the op/smugg simply vanishes and comes back behind me again to backstab again and finish the job.

 

Oh, did i mention they heal as well??

 

Most of the times the fight starts and ends with me in a perma-stun condition.

 

I think every class should have a chance of beating any class based on player skill, assuming the gear was similar, which with this class i don't think it's possible.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. Now go ahead and troll me all you want

 

Cheers everyone (sorry for the wall of text:p)

[Andreasus]

Hi everyone.

 

IMHO, operatives/smugglers need a nerf.

 

Either being with their opening burst dps or some stun abilities, they are in fact overpowered in some aspects.

 

I play a sith Sorc as a healer. Whenever an op/smugg comes near me i'm as good as dead with absolutely no chance of fight back.

 

They open up with a stabb stun removing almost instantely more than half my HP.

While in stun i can´t cast anything to heal or fight back.

 

When i eventually break the stun and am already down to 1/3 HP, guess what, get stunned again and there goes the 1/3 HP that was left. Where is there a fight back chance in this??

 

If i do manage to fight back, the op/smugg simply vanishes and comes back behind me again to backstab again and finish the job.

 

Oh, did i mention they heal as well??

 

Most of the times the fight starts and ends with me in a perma-stun condition.

 

I think every class should have a chance of beating any class based on player skill, assuming the gear was similar, which with this class i don't think it's possible.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. Now go ahead and troll me all you want

 

Cheers everyone (sorry for the wall of text:p)

 

Prepare for warzone:

skill madness until you have instant whirlwind

 

In fight

1)Break free

2) instant whirlwind on him

2a) if he uses break free, then stun him

3) walk 15m away from target

4) kill him because he has no gap closer. You have Snare on Range

 

 

And that is one of many many possibilities. (overload with skilled electric bindings from lightning tree is also useful)

[Cwild]

Prepare for warzone:

skill madness until you have instant whirlwind

 

In fight

1)Break free

2) instant whirlwind on him

2a) if he uses break free, then stun him

3) walk 15m away from target

4) kill him because he has no gap closer. You have Snare on Range

 

 

And that is one of many many possibilities. (overload with skilled electric bindings from lightning tree is also useful)

 

So thats what they can do with all of their cooldowns up...so what do we do to counter that if all ours are up.

 

1)trinket whirlwind, get stunned

2)you will not die to force lightning in a 4 second stun, you willllll NOT

3) evasion to clear dots, vanish, reopen on him

4) he will try to either knock you back or force speed, root him and position for knockback,

5) kill him.

[zaknaphein]

So thats what they can do with all of their cooldowns up...so what do we do to counter that if all ours are up.

 

1)trinket whirlwind, get stunned

2)you will not die to force lightning in a 4 second stun, you willllll NOT

3) evasion to clear dots, vanish, reopen on him

4) he will try to either knock you back or force speed, root him and position for knockback,

5) kill him.

 

Sorc's aspect, after knockback

 

1) recast shield

2)expect a root, wait 2sec, use force speed, take distance

2)reapply dots

3) kill him

[Cwild]

Sorc's aspect, after knockback

 

1) recast shield

2)expect a root, wait 2sec, use force speed, take distance

2)reapply dots

3) kill him

 

you should be good enough to know he is going to use his knock back.....you can avoid it for one, and two most times there is a wall near you that you position yourself against which means you literally have to take 2 steps to get back to them.

 

and if they are speccd for the rooted knockback, cover charge them or heal yourself...

 

if they interrupt your heal, you arent dieing, use a medpac, and go get em again.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Cwild

[Ich_Bin]

Hi everyone.

 

IMHO, operatives/smugglers need a nerf.

 

Either being with their opening burst dps or some stun abilities, they are in fact overpowered in some aspects.

 

I play a sith Sorc as a healer. Whenever an op/smugg comes near me i'm as good as dead with absolutely no chance of fight back.

 

They open up with a stabb stun removing almost instantely more than half my HP.

While in stun i can´t cast anything to heal or fight back.

 

When i eventually break the stun and am already down to 1/3 HP, guess what, get stunned again and there goes the 1/3 HP that was left. Where is there a fight back chance in this??

 

If i do manage to fight back, the op/smugg simply vanishes and comes back behind me again to backstab again and finish the job.

 

Oh, did i mention they heal as well??

 

Most of the times the fight starts and ends with me in a perma-stun condition.

 

I think every class should have a chance of beating any class based on player skill, assuming the gear was similar, which with this class i don't think it's possible.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. Now go ahead and troll me all you want

 

Cheers everyone (sorry for the wall of text:p)

 

Asking for yet another nerf for the weakest class in this game is just brilliant. Way to kick someone who is already on the ground. The best part is that this comes from a Sorc player.

 

If you only have half your hit points after the Operative opens on you, he either outgeared you or critted with every single of his attacks. Obviously he also had to use relic + adrenal (both on long cooldowns). Otherwise it is not possible.

If/when the Operative uses vanish during the fight he just sacrificed a 2 minute cooldown ability which will decrease his survivability for the next 2 minutes dramatically. So he SHOULD get rewarded by having an edge in the fight vs you.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[ThePoomz]

This entire thread is a joke.

 

I'm a BM Smuggler on the Shien server who has close to 18,000 health and generally considered a "good smuggler".

 

There are 3 well known Operatives on our server who absolutely demolish. Like going 55-0 every single game.

 

When an operative attacks me, I do a few things. I pop adrenals, relics, and any defensive bonus I can.

 

Operative: Stuns me, backstabs me (takes about 40% health at this point)

Me: Dirty Kick (stuns)

Possible outcome: I get off "Hunker Down" which makes me immune to stun (Only if Im super fast enough.. this does't happen often though)

Me: Heal

Operative: Breaks stealth

Operative: Stuns me again

Me: Dead.

 

There is literally nothing I can do to kill a good operative. 9.9/10 times I'm done. If I happen to get anywhere close to killing one.. they instantly vanish.

 

Ok.. cool.

 

Tell me again why you think this class needs a buff? I'm not the only class who deals with this nonsense. I'm not one to complain about being awesome all the time. I expect to die. I also expect to die to operatives. But the fact that even if everything in the world goes right for me and I still can't kill one... Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. End of story.

 

Additionally someone asked: What can Operatives do that another class can't?

 

I dunno.. maybe the fact you can pick and choose your fight and easily destroy ANYONE? And if you happen to come close to death you can instantly vanish?

 

Stop whining. Your class is overpowered and you know it.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ThePoomz

[Ich_Bin]

@ThePoomz:

When an Operative opens on you from stealth he has the clear advantage and will win the fight almost every single time. Period. That is how it should be. And that is how it has been previous to the surge nerf.

 

Most people don't seem to understand that this class is MEANT to be able to take out targets quickly in 1v1 when coming from stealth. Because that is the ONLY thing that they are/were good at.

And the fact that noone seems to understand this simple principle resulted in all the QQs and the way too harsh nerfs.

 

When Operatives try to kill another player 1v1 WITHOUT coming from stealth they will lose almost every single time, if their opponent knows what he is doing. That's the tradeoff.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[ThePoomz]

@ThePoomz:

When an Operative opens on you from stealth he has the clear advantage and will win the fight almost every single time. Period. That is how it should be. And that is how it has been previous to the surge nerf.

 

Most people don't seem to understand that this class is MEANT to be able to take out targets quickly in 1v1 when coming from stealth. Because that is the ONLY thing that they are/were good at.

And the fact that noone seems to understand this simple principle resulted in all the QQs and the way too harsh nerfs.

 

When Operatives try to kill another player 1v1 WITHOUT coming from stealth they will lose almost every single time, if their opponent knows what he is doing. That's the tradeoff.

 

 

Yes, but if you're entering a situation out of stealth you aren't playing your class correctly. I don't disagree with Operatives having an advantage, as I stated.. they should. But for it to be impossible to kill 1 on 1 doesn't make any sense.

[PinnyFox]

Sorc's aspect, after knockback

 

1) recast shield

2)expect a root, wait 2sec, use force speed, take distance

2)reapply dots

3) kill him

 

If the fight lasts long enough for a stun, trinket, stun, trinket, restealth, reopener, reshield, run away, DoTs, then the operative/scoundrel you fought wasn't very good and you would have won regardless.

[Ich_Bin]

Yes, but if you're entering a situation out of stealth you aren't playing your class correctly. I don't disagree with Operatives having an advantage, as I stated.. they should. But for it to be impossible to kill 1 on 1 doesn't make any sense.

 

That's nothing but a lie (or maybe "l2p issue"). It is not impossible to kill an Op 1on1.

[Seurot]

Yes, but if you're entering a situation out of stealth you aren't playing your class correctly.

 

Operatives arent trying to enter fights out of stealth. You have no idea how often I get pulled out of stealth from someone dropping aoe on someone else as I am trying to position to attack another, or a knockback happens or something. And sometimes , I still dont' know how, but someone will dot or attack me from like 30yrds away. I have no idea how they saw me but it does occasionally happen.

 

And once in combat, it takes a long time to get out of combat to restealth if your opponent isnt dead. Esp in Huttball, where you get knocked down all the time or the sorc runs from you and the opponent isn't dead so you can't get out of combat...it takes forever to restealth unless you blow your vanish.

 

We die alot or spend alot of time not actually fighting, but people only remember when we open on you with all CDs and kill you fast. Remember, we dont' have sustained dps, but we can burst. But we shoot our load, and are limp for a bit after unlike some classes that just keep chugging away doing the same dps.

[Ozzone]

Yes, but if you're entering a situation out of stealth you aren't playing your class correctly.

 

You may not have a choice. If your escape abilities are on CD, you cannot outrun a class that has gap closer abilities on the fly. You have to stand and fight or die. If you can live long enough to get your escape abilities up...

[Ozzone]

Sorc's aspect, after knockback

 

1) recast shield

2)expect a root, wait 2sec, use force speed, take distance

2)reapply dots

3) kill him

 

Toxic Scan is my friend. Every 5 secs if I need it.

[pairadox]

@ThePoomz:

When an Operative opens on you from stealth he has the clear advantage and will win the fight almost every single time. Period. That is how it should be. And that is how it has been previous to the surge nerf.

 

Most people don't seem to understand that this class is MEANT to be able to take out targets quickly in 1v1 when coming from stealth. Because that is the ONLY thing that they are/were good at.

And the fact that noone seems to understand this simple principle resulted in all the QQs and the way too harsh nerfs.

 

When Operatives try to kill another player 1v1 WITHOUT coming from stealth they will lose almost every single time, if their opponent knows what he is doing. That's the tradeoff.

 

And here we come to the cruxt of the argument.

 

The operatives sole purpose in life, is to open, control, and quick kill. It has no other purpose in existance except for that. When you take away from that, and add nothing in return, you have essentially gutted the class.

 

Yes, you may be "viable", but viable isnt enough. You have to be worthwhile. And thats where the operative is seriously lacking. I have never stated in all my arguements that the class was not viable, I simply stated it was substandard. This is a statement of fact, nothing else. With the nerfs it received, and with no subsequent reworking of the tools, its made the class lackluster, and requires entirely too much micromanagement for the same amount of return you can get for ANY other class currently out.

 

The call is not for them to "buff" the class so much as to restructure the tools available to the class since people dont seem to want a high burst/low sustained dps class. (If they did, we wouldnt be even having this conversation.)

 

I could care less how OP a sorc is. I just want to stand on at least semi even footing in any given scenario, and right now, thats not happening. At all. And it needs to change in order for the class to be up to par with other classes.

 

Why people resist this idea, based on warzones is beyond me. I can top damage with lethality spec. Doesnt mean anything. I can top kills with concealment spec. It means nothing.

 

Because all of these stats can be padded. I can spam dots on everyone and get kills/dmg for it.

 

What I cant do, is pull a ball carrier into the endzone. Or leap back into a fight after getting knocked into the pit, or sheild someone getting hammered on, or pull an enemy ball carrier into the traps, or sprint really fast through to the goal line, or any number of other utility factors that all the other classes have.

 

Except one.

Which was because we traded it for burst.

And then lost the burst.

 

That, is the definition of broken.

[pairadox]

Toxic Scan is my friend. Every 5 secs if I need it.

 

Only works if you are a healer. Otherwise, your eating a sorcs dots.

They are mental, not tech or physical.

[Manigma]

Thought I would try to cheer some of you ops up, here is some quite funny videos of how our class plays since the hidden strike/acid blade nerf.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=268686

[Ozzone]

Only works if you are a healer. Otherwise, your eating a sorcs dots.

They are mental, not tech or physical.

 

Forgot about that. Yeah you're right.

[Ich_Bin]

And here we come to the cruxt of the argument.

 

The operatives sole purpose in life, is to open, control, and quick kill. It has no other purpose in existance except for that. When you take away from that, and add nothing in return, you have essentially gutted the class.

 

Yes, you may be "viable", but viable isnt enough. You have to be worthwhile. And thats where the operative is seriously lacking. I have never stated in all my arguements that the class was not viable, I simply stated it was substandard. This is a statement of fact, nothing else. With the nerfs it received, and with no subsequent reworking of the tools, its made the class lackluster, and requires entirely too much micromanagement for the same amount of return you can get for ANY other class currently out.

 

The call is not for them to "buff" the class so much as to restructure the tools available to the class since people dont seem to want a high burst/low sustained dps class. (If they did, we wouldnt be even having this conversation.)

 

I could care less how OP a sorc is. I just want to stand on at least semi even footing in any given scenario, and right now, thats not happening. At all. And it needs to change in order for the class to be up to par with other classes.

 

Why people resist this idea, based on warzones is beyond me. I can top damage with lethality spec. Doesnt mean anything. I can top kills with concealment spec. It means nothing.

 

Because all of these stats can be padded. I can spam dots on everyone and get kills/dmg for it.

 

What I cant do, is pull a ball carrier into the endzone. Or leap back into a fight after getting knocked into the pit, or sheild someone getting hammered on, or pull an enemy ball carrier into the traps, or sprint really fast through to the goal line, or any number of other utility factors that all the other classes have.

 

Except one.

Which was because we traded it for burst.

And then lost the burst.

 

That, is the definition of broken.

 

QFT x100!

 

This post should be quoted to all the people who try to stomp any argument by saying "But you still do great damage".

[Howbadisbad]

and here we come to the cruxt of the argument.

 

The operatives sole purpose in life, is to open, control, and quick kill. It has no other purpose in existance except for that. When you take away from that, and add nothing in return, you have essentially gutted the class.

 

Yes, you may be "viable", but viable isnt enough. You have to be worthwhile. And thats where the operative is seriously lacking. I have never stated in all my arguements that the class was not viable, i simply stated it was substandard. This is a statement of fact, nothing else. With the nerfs it received, and with no subsequent reworking of the tools, its made the class lackluster, and requires entirely too much micromanagement for the same amount of return you can get for any other class currently out.

 

The call is not for them to "buff" the class so much as to restructure the tools available to the class since people dont seem to want a high burst/low sustained dps class. (if they did, we wouldnt be even having this conversation.)

 

i could care less how op a sorc is. I just want to stand on at least semi even footing in any given scenario, and right now, thats not happening. At all. And it needs to change in order for the class to be up to par with other classes.

 

Why people resist this idea, based on warzones is beyond me. I can top damage with lethality spec. Doesnt mean anything. I can top kills with concealment spec. It means nothing.

 

Because all of these stats can be padded. I can spam dots on everyone and get kills/dmg for it.

 

What i cant do, is pull a ball carrier into the endzone. Or leap back into a fight after getting knocked into the pit, or sheild someone getting hammered on, or pull an enemy ball carrier into the traps, or sprint really fast through to the goal line, or any number of other utility factors that all the other classes have.

 

Except one.

Which was because we traded it for burst.

And then lost the burst.

 

That, is the definition of broken.

 

qft +1