Lack of Gear Progression in SWTOR

[Eavus]

Now before the flames begin, hear me out. I know some have complained about how easy the fights are in operations. My own guild went 4/5 HM in our first night of doing HMs ever. I thought about this and realized that the fault wasn't in the difficulty of the encounter but more so in the ease in which gear is acquired. Again, before the flames begin about elitism and all that other BS, hear me out.

 

You can acquire T2 gear from running Flash points. In fact in your first week of hitting 50, you could easily acquire enough e-peen candy (purples) to fill all your slots in mostly T1 or T2 gear. If you PVP, you could easily acquire a full set of Champ Gear which although it does have expertise, you could raid the normal operations just fine in it (why is beyond me).

 

So you enter the normal raid which is tuned for 50's in blues and greens in mostly epics and face roll the normal content only to receive loot that is on par with what you are already wearing. You can then after face rolling the normal encounter, change the difficulty to HM and with a decent group, clear 4/5 HM in the same set of gear you used to clear Normal. Now the gear that drops in HM is Rakata level but that doesn't matter much because the gear that drops from NM is Rakata level.

 

Do people honestly think that guilds would of been able to clear NM encounters in blues and greens?

 

Flashpoints SHOULD have been a stepping stone to operations. Do flashpoints to gear up for ops. People ask me to do a FP with them and I ask "whats the point?" you will get more gear faster by running normal EV. It's the same loot. Normal Operations should have been a stepping stone for HM ops and so on to Nightmare ops. If that was the case, people would not have been clearing nightmares in the first week, not even the first couple weeks.

 

Gear drops should have been as follows:

 

Flashpoint (HM): Lvl 50 Blue set (Custom)

 

Operations (N): Tionese Set

 

Operations (HM): Columi Set w/ Tionese Crystals

 

Operations (NM): Rakata Set w/ Columi crystals.

 

Gearing up for the next tier of content is part of playing an mmo. In its current state, you out gear the tier you are trying to clear. Its stupid. This isn't a hard core vs casual thread. You could leave the difficulties exactly the same. I think running normal ops in blues would of given a much bigger challenge however i will never know because I had full epics before my first operation....

 

Now people will argue that in wow, guild clear content extremely quickly, even HMs. The truth of the matter is that those guild are all wearing full HM gear from the previous Tier which is only a couple stat points shy of the new tiers normal gear. THis allows them to blow through the normal tiers content and start knocking out HMs. This has been going on from every tier in WOW but i promise you that nobody was doing Molten Core in greens and they definitely didn't start their first day raiding Molten Core in full purples...

Edited January 21, 2012 by Eavus

[ChaeTakbae]

Is that really your definition of fun? Spending half your day to find gear so you can find more gear next week?

[Eavus]

Is that really your definition of fun? Spending half your day to find gear so you can find more gear next week?

 

It is fun getting that next peice of gear. If you bought a game, would you want to play through it or be ported the the last boss fully geared and beat the game in 10 minutes?

 

Also, your question is the entire point of MMO raiding :-p

Edited January 21, 2012 by Eavus

[dubiellu]

I agree. After 2 1/2 weeks of raiding I'm pretty damn close to full Rakata. By the end of the month I'll be full Rakata I imagine (apart from the weapons for obvious reasons).

 

They also made Nightmare modes pretty redundant since they don't even drop any better loot (apart from Soa).

 

They need to fix the gearing up process. It's too late for the current tier of raids, but the next one needs work.

[silverprovidence]

I agree, it should be normal = tionese, hard = columi, nightmare = rakata. The mish-mash atm kind of ruins both the balance purposes of the difficulties (ie each level meant to accomodate defined niches of palyer skill) and progression. I'm not really one for encouraged difficulty grinding, but with difficulty settings for some groups that will happen anyway. THe systme should reflect that its to accomdate players of certain skillsets though not some weird hashbash.

[SnoggyMack]

It is fun getting that next peice of gear. If you bought a game, would you want to play through it or be ported the the last boss fully geared and beat the game in 10 minutes?

 

Also, your question is the entire point of MMO raiding :-p

 

Since you're an experienced raider, then you must realize that what you do is you farm what's there.

 

Farm, farm, farm.

 

Then wait.

 

And there'll be more gear.

 

Until then, get back to farming.

[Eavus]

Since you're an experienced raider, then you must realize that what you do is you farm what's there.

 

Farm, farm, farm.

 

Then wait.

 

And there'll be more gear.

 

Until then, get back to farming.

 

I understand the farm mentality totally. The problem here is that the gear is so easy to get from FPs that you don't even need to do Normal EV. you can skip to HMs. There's something wrong with that.

[Solymr]

I agree. The gear is too easy to come by and the encounters are far too easy to begin with.

 

They could still patch and fix the loot distribution. Yes, there would be a lot of QQ, but it would go away. I would support fixing the loot system and also encourage making the encounters more difficult.

 

For me, part of the fun in an MMO is fighting that boss mob that is actually hard to defeat... With a group of people and everyone having a good time. Well, where is the fun if the fights aren't hard at all?

 

Two things I don't want to see in this game: Giving away gear like it is candy and easy operations.

[Suntarna]

If you PVP, you could easily acquire a full set of Champ Gear which although it does as expertise, you could raid the normal operations just fine in it (why is beyond me).

 

While I do think it's too powerful in regards to being basically identical to PvE gear with a tiny bit of leeway on the stats, but with expertise, it's probably because they don't want to apply limitations to what people are able to do. I've been able to pug both normal mode raids with my mix of Champ/HM FP gear. Without the champion gear though it might have been a different story. The more things players have access to that are 'new' to them, the longer they'll remain interested in this game. Maybe remove one of the secondary stats, since there are two (excluding expertise).

 

So you enter the normal raid which is tuned for 50's in blues and greens in mostly epics and face roll the normal content only to receive loot that is on par with what you are already wearing.

 

You're right, there is a lack of progression from HM FP's to normal raids gear wise, it is equal. The problem is, I'm sure people have done FP's many, many times and their item still hasn't dropped, and yet, they might do an Ops, and wallah, it drops. I don't agree with the idea of an Ops being for 'filler' gear, with FP's as the obvious best source comparatively (when it should be the other way around) though.

 

Do people honestly think that guilds would of been able to clear NM encounters in blues and greens?

 

Flashpoints SHOULD have been a stepping stone to operations. Do flashpoints to gear up for ops. Normal Operations should have been a stepping stone for HM ops and so on to Nightmare ops.

 

 

Short answer: yes. Being able to clear with say, only gear from False Emperor, The Battle of Ilum and Corellia, dailies, etc, yes, I think they really would of been able to. Generally people that hit 50 have the moddable Helm/Chest/Legs/Boots, as well as other off pieces, which they could craft or buy from the GTN, for example. When you think of the access of gear you have when you HIT 50, it's definitely a stepping stone. When I hit 50, there is no way I could go and do a HM FP/Raid on the same day. I had to do FE/BoI, dailies and spend my Corellia commendations.

 

So you see, there IS a system in place initially. The problem is that there is nothing that enforces the need to go to HM FPs first, instead of straight into an Ops.

 

 

Gear drops should have been as follows:

 

Flashpoint (HM): Lvl 50 Blue set (Custom)

 

Operations (N): Tionese Set

 

Operations (HM): Columi Set w/ Tionese Crystals

 

Operations (NM): Rakata Set w/ Columi crystals.

 

A possible idea is that HM FP's drop non set piece epics, or a new 'dungeon tier' like WoW had (tier 0.5) instead of the Blue set (people like purples).

 

If they change the progression order for this though, they may have to re-think the PvP one too. In my humble opinion, it's quite odd that Champion gear bags drop lower tier items commendations. I can see why it DOES (for filler gear), but would it not make more sense for there to be Centurion bags, that drop Champion commendations? That way there is a longer grind for it, and there's isn't as much impact on PvP initially, since they're closer stats to people that have recently hit 50 and are struggling in a harsh, geared, PvP community? By the time you reached Battlemaster gear, you would, (before the Ilum problems...) have over half Champion gear through the commendations.

 

You could leave the difficulties exactly the same. I think running normal ops in blues would of given a much bigger challenge.

 

Yes and no. It's not too much about gear, some of the fights are just ridiculously under-tuned. I.e the 'puzzle' boss in EV and the little council.

 

The biggest problem I see BW facing, is changing it now, when people are already have the gear. They can change it, and save the future generations, which is a VERY good idea, but it will be a lot of work, and for us, the people who've already obtained so much gear, it'll have very little effect.

 

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading!

 

P.S I love dissecting big posts.

 

P.P.S This is good feedback! Bioware, read!

[Dazgra]

Is that really your definition of fun? Spending half your day to find gear so you can find more gear next week?

 

Please delete your installation and never log in again.

[Eavus]

While I do think it's too powerful in regards to being basically identical to PvE gear with a tiny bit of leeway on the stats, but with expertise, it's probably because they don't want to apply limitations to what people are able to do. I've been able to pug both normal mode raids with my mix of Champ/HM FP gear. Without the champion gear though it might have been a different story. The more things players have access to that are 'new' to them, the longer they'll remain interested in this game. Maybe remove one of the secondary stats, since there are two (excluding expertise).

 

 

 

You're right, there is a lack of progression from HM FP's to normal raids gear wise, it is equal. The problem is, I'm sure people have done FP's many, many times and their item still hasn't dropped, and yet, they might do an Ops, and wallah, it drops. I don't agree with the idea of an Ops being for 'filler' gear, with FP's as the obvious best source comparatively (when it should be the other way around) though.

 

 

 

 

Short answer: yes. Being able to clear with say, only gear from False Emperor, The Battle of Ilum and Corellia, dailies, etc, yes, I think they really would of been able to. Generally people that hit 50 have the moddable Helm/Chest/Legs/Boots, as well as other off pieces, which they could craft or buy from the GTN, for example. When you think of the access of gear you have when you HIT 50, it's definitely a stepping stone. When I hit 50, there is no way I could go and do a HM FP/Raid on the same day. I had to do FE/BoI, dailies and spend my Corellia commendations.

 

So you see, there IS a system in place initially. The problem is that there is nothing that enforces the need to go to HM FPs first, instead of straight into an Ops.

 

 

 

 

A possible idea is that HM FP's drop non set piece epics, or a new 'dungeon tier' like WoW had (tier 0.5) instead of the Blue set (people like purples).

 

If they change the progression order for this though, they may have to re-think the PvP one too. In my humble opinion, it's quite odd that Champion gear bags drop lower tier items commendations. I can see why it DOES (for filler gear), but would it not make more sense for there to be Centurion bags, that drop Champion commendations? That way there is a longer grind for it, and there's isn't as much impact on PvP initially, since they're closer stats to people that have recently hit 50 and are struggling in a harsh, geared, PvP community? By the time you reached Battlemaster gear, you would, (before the Ilum problems...) have over half Champion gear through the commendations.

 

 

 

Yes and no. It's not too much about gear, some of the fights are just ridiculously under-tuned. I.e the 'puzzle' boss in EV and the little council.

 

The biggest problem I see BW facing, is changing it now, when people are already have the gear. They can change it, and save the future generations, which is a VERY good idea, but it will be a lot of work, and for us, the people who've already obtained so much gear, it'll have very little effect.

 

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading!

 

P.S I love dissecting big posts.

 

P.P.S This is good feedback! Bioware, read!

 

Thank you for your constructive feed back. Though there may be slight differences the end thoughts are the same. I too agree that its too late for this tier of content. They can start with the next tier. They could also up the difficulty of the next tier substantially to compensate for the fact that anyone with a couple weeks of raiding time has full Columi/Rakata.

[BadgeredMushroom]

It is fun getting that next peice of gear. If you bought a game, would you want to play through it or be ported the the last boss fully geared and beat the game in 10 minutes?

 

Also, your question is the entire point of MMO raiding :-p

 

I'd much rather have non gear-based progression (alternate advancement of some sort) than have to play the role of a hamster on the wheel that is the mindless grind flashpoints/operations/warzones or quit World of Aionrifthammercraft end game. This is by far my largest problem with the game at the moment.

 

It's fun making your character stronger and doing challenging content, not repeating the same dull content for months until the newer model hamster wheel (operation) is released.

[Osmaht]

I pretty much agree with the OP. Just from running HM flashpoints I've collected roughly equivalent gear to someone who has raided hard mode ops. This doesn't encourage me (from a gear point of view) to participate in ops at all.

 

Not to mention the Rakata implants and earpieces you can get from doing daily quests, which is even worse if you think about it.

 

My model for endgame gear progression would be thus:

 

Corellia commendations: lv 48-49 blue mods (roughly how it is now).

Dailies: Blue lv 50 mods. Tionese epics for 120 tokens.

HM Flashpoints: Blue lv50 drops, Tionese token and commendations from the final boss.

NM Ops: Epic lv50 drops, Tionese tokens. Tionese commendations for each boss. Columi commendations/possibly token from final bosses.

HM Ops: Columi tokens, commendations and equivalent level drops from each boss. Rakata commendations from final bosses.

NM Ops: Rakata tokens, commendations and equivalent level drops from each boss.

 

Some other notes. NM flashpoints for the level 50 instances are defunct. Bioware may as well save themselves some time and make only heroic modes for the lower level instances. Alternatively tune the hardmodes even harder and have them drop better gear (their current drops are too good for them given how hard they are).

 

Tionese crystals currently serve no purpose at all. They may as well not be in the game. Suggestion - add vendors where you can exchange epic mods for them.

[Eavus]

I am glad that everyone is giving constructive feed back on this issue.

[PjPablo]

One thing to consider for those that aren't fans of it taking time to gear is what is the consequence of easy gearing. What other forms of character progression do you have in game? If gear is easy to acquire it seems to me that BW is going to have to continually and quickly add new gear for progression purposes or else people will feel that their character is stagnant. That leads to crazy mudflation and then you have serious issues.

 

IMHO gearing needs to be more time consuming.

[Eavus]

For justice!!!

[lilbyte]

Please delete your installation and never log in again.

 

yes because only your play-style is valid right?

 

I don't understand the idea of "let us get to 50 quick as possible so can start the endgame, because having to level is boring." Yeah running the same 5 instances very day, over and over, oh and over.. and over.. and over.... that's definitely more exciting then spending few months leveling your character up.

[Barracudastr]

Is that really your definition of fun? Spending half your day to find gear so you can find more gear next week?

 

Your a little out of touch with what a mmo is at endgame arent' you?

 

Im sorry but it is fun... whats not fun is like he said being fully geared and just rolling through operations and beating them in a week.

 

Sorry thats not my idea of fun... oh look content patch.... oh new operation, next week welp done with that operation max gear.... guess ill just afk in fleet after my Ilum daily.

 

Thats the direction the game is headed, and if you think thats going to be fun..... well lol power to you I guess.

[SnoggyMack]

I pretty much agree with the OP. Just from running HM flashpoints I've collected roughly equivalent gear to someone who has raided hard mode ops. This doesn't encourage me (from a gear point of view) to participate in ops at all.

 

Roughly equivalent?

 

What's the difference between the two items? Even small stat differences, at end-game at least, are significant. That's the power of min-maxxing. You spend weeks working toward that one new piece of gear that brings you 5 more hit points. Why? Because it's 5 more hit points.

[Barracudastr]

yes because only your play-style is valid right?

 

I don't understand the idea of "let us get to 50 quick as possible so can start the endgame, because having to level is boring." Yeah running the same 5 instances very day, over and over, oh and over.. and over.. and over.... that's definitely more exciting then spending few months leveling your character up.

 

Okay then after you level you character up then what.... thats right nothing.

 

This comment is completely onesided not everyone wants to level to 50 then reroll over and over again.

 

Here let me just reverse what you just said level to 50 slowly.... (games been out over a month now most are hitting 50 lol).

 

Oh I hit 50 reroll another char.... gind the same quests and fps again to 50....

 

Oh another 50 let me reroll and DO THE SAME QUESTS ALL OVER AGAIN.

 

Your saying its boring doing the same stuff over and over again at end game well I say doing the same linear quests over and over again is mind numbing.

 

At least if they had gear progression you would be working towards getting stronger and ready for the next content to release.

 

If you want to spend months on alts good for you but why hurt the people that want decent end game with progression? If you dont care about it then really why are you commenting at all?

[xQuicksilverx]

I agree with OP. Gear in this game seems completely backwards.

 

PvP gear seems to just fall in your lap, and its good enough to do HMs in. And the gear you get out of doing normal operations is the same, if not worse, gear than you get out of hard mode flashpoints.. its a complete waste of time.

[Inspire-]

I just have to butt in and say: Some people did actually do Molten Core in green "of the ____" -gear.

The reason for that was, however, the fact that Blizzard did a horrible job on itemizing

[Eavus]

I just have to butt in and say: Some people did actually do Molten Core in green "of the ____" -gear.

The reason for that was, however, the fact that Blizzard did a horrible job on itemizing

 

Shhhhhhh :-p

[Scan]

Funny thing is ~I and others were posting this weeks ago, and probably getting shot down by players like you, who are now posting what we were saying weeks ago.

 

Im seeing more and more posts about the exact problems pointed out by the higher achieevrs than you, mark my words these posts will increase before tailing off.

 

To the OP welcome to late Dec..

[Eavus]

Funny thing is ~I and others were posting this weeks ago, and probably getting shot down by players like you, who are now posting what we were saying weeks ago.

 

Im seeing more and more posts about the exact problems pointed out by the higher achieevrs than you, mark my words these posts will increase before tailing off.

 

To the OP welcome to late Dec..

 

I have had the same thoughts since late December. I don't check the forums often enough. Just thought I would bring this up as a problem that is very real.

 

If you have seen a post by me "shooting you down" by all means point it out.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Eavus