Patch 1.1.1 changes to Operatives

[Attaraxia]

Wrong... Just... Wrong.

 

and what about my posts, cowflab? am i wrong, just wrong? or are you only here to talk to the people mouthing off the general rhetoric? maybe only the people agreeing with you?

 

last post on page 22. gogo. tell me i'm wrong.

[Cowflab]

and what about my posts, cowflab? am i wrong, just wrong? or are you only here to talk to the people mouthing off the general rhetoric? maybe only the people agreeing with you?

 

last post on page 22. gogo. tell me i'm wrong.

 

I didn't really see a problem with your posts. They're well constructed and offer usable information without going down the "oh bw just hates us cuz we are skilled, let's go play sorcs because that's what they want us to do" road. I'll have to take some time to ponder your page 22 comment to offer any valid opinion on your proposals.

 

No one is agreeing with me BTW and a question of my own. Are you going to throw your hands up and "roll a sorc" or are you going to ride out the change and come up with strategies to overcome it? I assume you'll do the latter but I'm genuinely curious.

[sunamidis]

This is not a nerf. This is absolute ballance change with the other classes and still with those changes is more powerfull than assasin. I am ok with the changes.

[Achmed]

same here.

been lethality for a while now cause concealment is just way to easy. no chalange at all.

+ concealment is pretty gimped in PvE boss fights.

[Attaraxia]

I didn't really see a problem with your posts. They're well constructed and offer usable information without going down the "oh bw just hates us cuz we are skilled, let's go play sorcs because that's what they want us to do" road. I'll have to take some time to ponder your page 22 comment to offer any valid opinion on your proposals.

 

No one is agreeing with me BTW and a question of my own. Are you going to throw your hands up and "roll a sorc" or are you going to ride out the change and come up with strategies to overcome it? I assume you'll do the latter but I'm genuinely curious.

 

I play a medic, so honestly I'm not effected by this change. I won't be re-rolling; I have alts and alts are always going to be alternatives for when I'm bored, nothing more. I thoroughly enjoy my agent, and i see no reason that this change will stop that. If I decide to play as concealment again (and I have in the past, enough times to know it's mechanics, advantages, and disadvantages quite well in both PvE and in PvP(open-world and warzone, low expertise and high)), I will find ways to make it work.

 

My primary concern is the heavy-handed nature of this balance change. Regardless of whether or not any of us agree or disagree with the content of the change, it's hard to see it as anything other than abrupt and short-sighted. I develop software for a living (not games), and I would be fired in short order if I ever made a significant change to my programs and then implemented it after only a week of testing and feedback cycles with a tiny fraction of my end-users.

 

The only conclusion I can reach at this point in time is that this is political. In short, a move designed to please the masses and demonstrate Bioware's willingness to rapidly respond to it's community and their concerns (something they have been hammered on recently). However, it's self-contradicting (Ref: my larger post), and short-sighted. Most important of all, it is a PvP fix that will heavily impact PvE, and I don't think ANYONE should condone that. (Ref: The armor penetration component)

 

I take this to be a sign of things to come, and I find that extremely disturbing, given that I like this game and hope to see it last for many years.

[Reiina]

As an operative I agree than our opener was too strong.

The problem is that they hit it with the nerf bat(which I can understand) and then rolled over the spec with the nerf train by nerfing acid blade(which also affect PvE where we weren't shining to start with).

[Lagmonster]

I didn't really see a problem with your posts. They're well constructed and offer usable information without going down the "oh bw just hates us cuz we are skilled, let's go play sorcs because that's what they want us to do" road. I'll have to take some time to ponder your page 22 comment to offer any valid opinion on your proposals.

 

No one is agreeing with me BTW and a question of my own. Are you going to throw your hands up and "roll a sorc" or are you going to ride out the change and come up with strategies to overcome it? I assume you'll do the latter but I'm genuinely curious.

 

Tell me what kind of "strategies" I can come up for pve dps to over come the 20% armor pen nerf. I'd LOVE to hear it

 

Oh wait thats right, I have to reroll to be nightmare competitive now as my dps is going to tank cause of this half *** change with only pvp in mind.

[Rainsfords]

same here.

been lethality for a while now cause concealment is just way to easy. no chalange at all.

+ concealment is pretty gimped in PvE boss fights.

 

Concealment outdamages lethality on boss fights, too. I like how you're gimping your entire raid/party.

 

Besides, do I melt people with no expertise on my 600+ expertise op? Sure. But just as often I'll open up on a sorc/jug/maur and do about 10-15% damage before they turn around and melt me. If i'm caught out in the open by a sorc or a BH I get blown up. Plenty of Ops will open up on me and bring me to 70% by the time the stun wears off, and then they get burnt down quick.

 

People remember the times they get owned by an Op, and they forget the time the Op's damage was easily healed through.

[RubberOrc]

So how did we go from this:

 

http://www.redrancor.com/category/articles/swtor/swtor-georg-zoeller-details-current-state-class-balance

 

Where on January 11th Georg Zoeller, Lead combat designer says there are no major issues in class balancing for PVP and that they don't make decisions based on who is loudest in the forums, to lets nerf ops with a nerf bat?

 

Either Georg is a big fat liar (sorry Georg) or someone not in charge of combat design is designing the combat now - I'm betting someone from marketing listening to all the qq.

 

No coincidence they announced this after the subs went through.

Edited January 22, 2012 by RubberOrc

[pelijr]

Concealment outdamages lethality on boss fights, too. I like how you're gimping your entire raid/party.

 

Besides, do I melt people with no expertise on my 600+ expertise op? Sure. But just as often I'll open up on a sorc/jug/maur and do about 10-15% damage before they turn around and melt me. If i'm caught out in the open by a sorc or a BH I get blown up. Plenty of Ops will open up on me and bring me to 70% by the time the stun wears off, and then they get burnt down quick.

 

People remember the times they get owned by an Op, and they forget the time the Op's damage was easily healed through.

 

+1 Dead on. When we crit, (Or stack buffs) we hit hard. But it's still not outrageous post 1.1

 

Jarring Strike, is a balanced nerf, if you leave the damage where it's at. If you affect the damage, then leave the stun, and perhaps even make it slightly less than a full resolve bar. As it stands, AC will be broken post 1.1.1

[Cowflab]

Tell me what kind of "strategies" I can come up for pve dps to over come the 20% armor pen nerf. I'd LOVE to hear it

 

Oh wait thats right, I have to reroll to be nightmare competitive now as my dps is going to tank cause of this half *** change with only pvp in mind.

 

I never said I didn't agree with PvE gripes because of a PvP nerf. But that a whole different can of worms all together.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Not in Huttball, it's not...until you've played Huttball without a leap, knockback, or pull, you really can't complain about mobility.

 

I have one leap. That is it. That is all I have. It is on a relatively long cool down for PVP and it is mitigated by a knock back (which every class but mine has) a snare (which every class has) or any speed (which most classes have) abilities.

 

I have 2 possible gap closers:

 

1. Stealth +30% run speed (Force Camo)

2. A single 30 meter Force Leap.

 

Considering how easy Force Leap is to counter (and that Assassins are more or less completely immune to it) it is a poor gap closer and can't be used as an opener.

 

You want to see how bad Huttball is?

 

Play Huttball without any pushes or pulls.

Play Huttball without any long term mez.

Play Huttball when your ONLY stun also stuns you.

 

You can't really complain about Huttball to a Jedi Sentinel.

 

I'm not arguing that Concealment burst wasn't overpowered. Nobody should ever be killed without being able to react. However, I do think the spec was poorly designed - both it's positives, and it's negatives.

 

The issue is that originally, the Operative wasn't actually a melee class. This was many many months ago, back in beta...Lacerate was a ranged attack called Lacerating Shot. Backstab was also a ranged positional at one point. Eviscerate and Hidden Strike didn't even exist - Shiv was our only real melee attack. As a result, when BioWare designed the Operative...they treated it as a ranged class, and not like the melee class that it's come to be. The result is a class with no real gap closer.

 

The long term stealth is a heck of a gap closer. Also the movement speed increase is a gap closer.

 

You do realize that Sentinels (without using one of the Centering abilities) have access to a 4 second stealth +30% run speed and a 15% speed improvement that may not even work only. Yet operatives said that our gap closers were fine.

 

You have just as many gap closers as a Sentinel does.

 

Shadows/Assassins get the same stealth and a movement speed increase that Operatives get. They also get Force Pull and Force Speed, in addition to having a knockback (not a closer obviously, but it's additional Huttball utility). So as far as I'm concerned, the argument that Operatives don't need a gap closer because they have stealth doesn't really work.

 

Again, play a Sentinel, you have as many gap closers as we do.

 

Full disclosure, Ops do get a speed increase...Slip Away, the second-tier Lethality talent. It reduces the cooldown on our 4 second stun to 30 seconds, and increases movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds after it's used. I consider it mandatory for PvP healing. However, it's a gap creator, not a gap closer - another melee/range identity crisis for the Operative. It does no good when trying to run the ball or chase down a ball carrier.

 

Also:

 

 

 

If BioWare doesn't want Concealment Ops taking out heavily armored targets, they shouldn't have made the 31 point Concealment talent an armor penetration ability. The issue isn't that they're fighting armored targets, it's the speed with which they were doing it. All things being equal, I'd go for the Sage or the Sniper before I'd go for the Guardian...but sometimes the healer is a Trooper/BH, and healer-killers need some sort of counter for that.

 

You have 30% armor penetration. That is ideal for taking out lightly and medium armored targets.

[Attaraxia]

Play Huttball without any pushes or pulls.

Play Huttball without any long term mez.

Play Huttball when your ONLY stun also stuns you.

 

You can't really complain about Huttball to a Jedi Sentinel.

 

You're horribly misinformed.

 

Concealment Operatives have no knockback.

No pull.

No dash.

No jump.

No spammable mez.

 

We have two stuns, one of which precludes the possibility of using the other. In effect, we have one stun.

 

We have a mid-length CD AoE mez. in the situations its useful, it is broken almost immediately due to the AoE nature of the confrontations in which it is most often utilized.

 

We have vanish. Unfortunately, everyone knows how to counter it (cast dot, cast AoE, cast stealth scanner).

 

To go a step further, our damage is positional, which introduces the difficulties of guesswork versus internet latency. Anyone who has tried it can easily tell you about the frustration involved with running around someone spamming backstab, hoping to get the command through at a time when the server thinks you really ARE behind the target.

 

Please, for the sake of the sweeping balance changes that may one day be targeting YOUR class instead of ours, try to get your facts straight before you call something justified. Calling for changes to something you don't truly understand is what got us into this mess in the first place.

[System_Crush]

Soo much hate for the patch in this thread...

I'd like to share that as a lethality operative I'm largely unaffected.

(I did use hidden strike every now and then, but it has no knockdown)

[Mourn]

Soo much hate for the patch in this thread...

I'd like to share that as a lethality operative I'm largely unaffected.

(I did use hidden strike every now and then, but it has no knockdown)

 

Any tips and tactics on playing a effective lethality OP in PVP, and a build maybe?

I can honestly saying i suck at playin on so far.

[Molokia]

So how did we go from this:

 

http://www.redrancor.com/category/articles/swtor/swtor-georg-zoeller-details-current-state-class-balance

 

Where on January 11th Georg Zoeller, Lead combat designer says there are no major issues in class balancing for PVP and that they don't make decisions based on who is loudest in the forums, to lets nerf ops with a nerf bat?

 

Either Georg is a big fat liar (sorry Georg) or someone not in charge of combat design is designing the combat now - I'm betting someone from marketing listening to all the qq.

 

No coincidence they announced this after the subs went through.

 

Yup, guess it'll be time to play Star Wars The Lightsaber Class Republic....

 

I knew a nerfbat would be swung at Imperial Agents, I didn't know the castration cutter would be unleashed...

 

Everyone saying if you have "skill" it won't be an issue... Skill is a subjective statement, there is no "bar" to branch it off of.

 

They should atleast buff our healing, and make our battle rez instant.. Make our damage out of stealth more, and reduce the energy cost of healing / damage attacks / skills.... A geared SI is insane damage / healing, but it's okay since 50+% plays that class...

Edited January 22, 2012 by Molokia

[raelimar]

I have one leap. That is it. That is all I have. It is on a relatively long cool down for PVP and it is mitigated by a knock back (which every class but mine has) a snare (which every class has) or any speed (which most classes have) abilities.

 

Incorrect. Operatives don't have knockbacks. The only Agent/Smuggler knockback is Cover Pulse, and that's exclusive to Snipers and Gunslingers. That's the equivalent of me attributing Force Push to a Sentinel.

 

I have 2 possible gap closers:

 

1. Stealth +30% run speed (Force Camo)

2. A single 30 meter Force Leap.

 

Considering how easy Force Leap is to counter (and that Assassins are more or less completely immune to it) it is a poor gap closer and can't be used as an opener.

 

So it's got it's flaws. At least you have a leap.

 

You want to see how bad Huttball is?

 

Play Huttball without any pushes or pulls.

Play Huttball without any long term mez.

Play Huttball when your ONLY stun also stuns you.

 

You can't really complain about Huttball to a Jedi Sentinel.

 

We have one melee range stun and one short-term mez. They're pretty good...unfortunately they're also melee range, which kind of sucks if you're trying to tag a ball runner over the fire. Due to the ability delay/lag in the game right now, your timing has to be absolutely flawless, or they get CC'd in the wrong place.

 

The long term stealth is a heck of a gap closer. Also the movement speed increase is a gap closer.

 

No it's not. You have to be in melee range to use it...which means, by definition, you've closed the gap.

 

You do realize that Sentinels (without using one of the Centering abilities) have access to a 4 second stealth +30% run speed and a 15% speed improvement that may not even work only. Yet operatives said that our gap closers were fine.

 

Why take Centering abilities out of the question? It's part of your class. I play with a Marauder in my premade. You have a party speed boost.

 

You have just as many gap closers as a Sentinel does.

 

 

 

Again, play a Sentinel, you have as many gap closers as we do.

 

 

 

You have 30% armor penetration. That is ideal for taking out lightly and medium armored targets.

 

We don't have a leap. We don't have a knockback. We don't have a pull. So no, we don't have as many gap closers as you do. Operatives/Scoundrels have the worst mobility for Huttball, that's just a fact. Our only "gap closer" is stealth, and that does absolutely nothing when you're knocked off a platform. At least you have a way to get back up without running all the way back to the middle of the map. Yes, Concealment Ops are great at taking out targets...I'm not sure how that's relevant to the discussion of mobility.

Edited January 23, 2012 by raelimar

[TheLakers]

 

 

We don't have a leap. We don't have a knockback. We don't have a pull.

 

We don't have stealth. We don't have the ability to heal. We don't have the ability to completely vanish out of combat and danger.

 

So no, we don't have as many gap closers as you do. Operatives/Scoundrels have the worst mobility for Huttball, that's just a fact. Our only "gap closer" is stealth, and that does absolutely nothing when you're knocked off a platform. At least you have a way to get back up without running all the way back to the middle of the map.

 

Except you have stealth, which gives you the ability to avoid being knockbacked since they can't freaking see you.

 

Oh boohoo, my mobility Meanwhile your burst spec'd is gankign that sage in about 6 seconds and your heal spec is healing for 400k. Cry more.

[raelimar]

We don't have stealth. We don't have the ability to heal. We don't have the ability to completely vanish out of combat and danger.

 

And this has to do with mobility...how, exactly? And for what it's worth, you do in fact have stealth/vanish and healing capabilities. Not nearly to the degree that the stealth healing hybrid class has, granted.

 

Except you have stealth, which gives you the ability to avoid being knockbacked since they can't freaking see you.

 

First of all - no it doesn't. The most prevalent knockbacks in the game (Merc and Inquisitor) knockbacks are PBAoE, so they don't need a target. Secondly, if I'm healing my team, I'm not exactly prowling around in stealth, obviously.

 

 

Oh boohoo, my mobility Meanwhile your burst spec'd is gankign that sage in about 6 seconds and your heal spec is healing for 400k. Cry more.

 

Our "heal spec" is inferior to Sorc healing in almost every regard, to the point that raiders are now asking explicitly for Sorc/Sage heals. I've broken 400K maybe...5 or 6 times since I've capped, and those were Voidstar matches that went heavily in my favor. On average it's closer to 250-300K in full Champion gear. I'm usually top heals, but a Sorc who knows what they're doing could destroy me.

 

As for Vanish...yes, we have it. It's a great defensive cooldown, but it also means I can't heal my team effectively for about 10 seconds. As for the "six second burst", I'm not even arguing that the damage doesn't need to be toned down...I'm just saying that Operatives do have legitimate issues that need fixing. A one trick pony might have an incredible trick, but if you take that trick away, it's still time to put that pony down. I realize you're pissed because Concealment Ops are destroying everyone right now, but that's no reason to break a class.

Edited January 23, 2012 by raelimar

[ProfessorWalsh]

And this has to do with mobility...how, exactly? And for what it's worth, you do in fact have stealth/vanish and healing capabilities. Not nearly to the degree that the stealth healing hybrid class has, granted.

 

Nice try.

 

We have vanish sure, we don't have stealth. If you want to consider a 4 second stealth "stealth" and if you want to consider one spec that requires a critical hit from a burn ability only to work with will heal one percent of your health every second for a handful of seconds "healing" then you are correct.

 

You aren't winning this argument Raelimar.

 

The changes made to your class are, as near as most of us can see, perfectly justified.

 

You are now on par with a Sentinel or Marauder in damage... And you still have way more utility.

 

 

First of all - no it doesn't. The most prevalent knockbacks in the game (Merc and Inquisitor) knockbacks are PBAoE, so they don't need a target. Secondly, if I'm healing my team, I'm not exactly prowling around in stealth, obviously.

 

And I am so certain those PBAoE knock backs don't usually hit you while you are in stealth. Why? Because I am certain players aren't using the Force in real life to know where you are.

 

Also stealth while healing is an IMMENSE bonus.

 

Vanishing when a melee class like the Sentinel gets on you in a hectic battle and stealthing to a new position is usually enough to get us to lose you completely for more than a handful of seconds. In that handful of seconds you can apply the healing. If you ever played a Sentinel or Marauder you'd know how annoying that is.

 

Not that we *can* kill you if you are heal specced. You can heal through our damage with ease.

 

Our "heal spec" is inferior to Sorc healing in almost every regard, to the point that raiders are now asking explicitly for Sorc/Sage heals. I've broken 400K maybe...5 or 6 times since I've capped, and those were Voidstar matches that went heavily in my favor. On average it's closer to 250-300K in full Champion gear. I'm usually top heals, but a Sorc who knows what they're doing could destroy me.

 

This is a fallacy and you know it. People only ask for Sages and Sorcs because of the AoE heal. Your single target stuff is as good as it gets. Also, no Realimar, chances are you aren't so good at healing and Sorc players so bad at healing that you get into the top heals because you are simply that much better. Chances are it means that your class is on par with them.

 

Heck, as a Sentinel I've broken 250k once in damage. I've seen people post screen shots of Sentinels and Marauders up to the 450k mark. I'm usually sitting around 150k and usually that is enough to get me to top one, two, or three.

 

Yes, with a pocket healer and a tank putting me on guard, in a warzone where I am constantly fighting and not dying or guarding an objective without enemies attacking it I can get huge numbers, the same can be said for your class.

 

As for Vanish...yes, we have it. It's a great defensive cooldown, but it also means I can't heal my team effectively for about 10 seconds. As for the "six second burst", I'm not even arguing that the damage doesn't need to be toned down...I'm just saying that Operatives do have legitimate issues that need fixing. A one trick pony might have an incredible trick, but if you take that trick away, it's still time to put that pony down. I realize you're pissed because Concealment Ops are destroying everyone right now, but that's no reason to break a class.

 

Operatives are fine for what they do post-nerf. They are on par with the other pure melee DPS classes. They have utility that sorcs don't have.

 

Let me be straight with you...

 

As a Sentinel/Marauder I will kill a Sorc or Sage. I will. There is no question. I'll shred them and once I am on them I will not stop until someone on their team kills me or I kill the target. I may not be able to kill them quickly, but I push back their cast timers and I interrupt as much as I can and I generally make them spend a massive amount of time trying to run from me instead of healing their team.

 

I look for Sorcs and Sages to kill.

 

If they knock me back I will Force Leap onto them the second I can. The fact is I slaughter them.

 

...

 

If I see an Operative... I will seek not to engage.

 

I can't kill it and I know I can't kill it. I can bother it, but it will get away. I can't Force Leap to it if it is in a balcony because if it is smart it is using cover and thus preventing me from doing so. I can't interrupt it because of it being in cover and I can't CC it either, even if my class had such an ability.

 

In PVP an Operative is far more effective than a Sorcerer ever is if the opposing team has any brain what so ever and knows to shut the healer down.

[Bellatrix]

Are you saying you avoid out in the open operatives as a sentinel? Maybe you need a respec.

 

But I must say on my 500 expertise operative I have never done the mythical 7k 5k 5k damage as most people say about operative, but then again I'm no biochem user either.

 

I'll pick my juggernaut any day over my operative in pvp. Sure my operative does more single target damage, but thats it. My juggernaut brings an arsenal of control/debuffs in knockbacks, taunts, guard etc etc, and thats why I think it's a superior pvp class. Big numbers are not what wins most WZs, atleast not when your playing huttball 97% of the time.

 

Now we just need a cooldown on Grav rounds/Tracer missile.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Bellatrix

[Areoss]

the nerf bat has been swung.

 

You're no longer the flavour of the month.

 

You cant kill anyone now in one stun

 

Live with it. Or roll a healer and get the server community going and be useful for once.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Are you saying you avoid out in the open operatives as a sentinel? Maybe you need a respec.

 

No.

 

Combat specced Sentinels (as opposed to Watchmen) don't do so well against Operatives. We can't stay on you (you have too many stuns) and if you are heal specced you can survive against us for an amazingly long time, almost indefinitely. I'll whack one if I see others doing it, but I won't go after an Operative pre-nerf if I am solo and they are.

 

Your class has too many stuns which makes it very hard to take down and if I do manage to get you down far enough you can vanish. Combat spec only has one burn and it is only a 5 second deal with a long enough cool down that I can't keep it constantly applied.

[Kieran]

the nerf bat has been swung.

 

You're no longer the flavour of the month.

 

You cant kill anyone now in one stun

 

Live with it. Or roll a healer and get the server community going and be useful for once.

 

Flavour of the month implies that the majority of the PvPers are playing that class, I think you should refer to sorcerers when you talk about FOTM. Also we haven't been able to kill anyone with one stun since 1.1 happened with the consumable stacking nerf and level 50 only warzones. I will continue to play concealment however, as an inevitable buff will be coming our way once more people get geared and realize we hit like a wet noodle against a high expertise target. Not to mention operative healing is complete trash (seriously, it's really really bad) compared to bounty hunter and sorcerer.

[Drakovicz]

No.

 

Combat specced Sentinels (as opposed to Watchmen) don't do so well against Operatives. We can't stay on you (you have too many stuns) and if you are heal specced you can survive against us for an amazingly long time, almost indefinitely. I'll whack one if I see others doing it, but I won't go after an Operative pre-nerf if I am solo and they are.

 

Your class has too many stuns which makes it very hard to take down and if I do manage to get you down far enough you can vanish. Combat spec only has one burn and it is only a 5 second deal with a long enough cool down that I can't keep it constantly applied.

 

...... What

 

Out of stealth, Operative has 1 stun. One. Thats less than two. Its also less than three, four, five, six or any other number bigger than 1. Its more than zero, thought so Ill give you that.

 

The question I really want to ask is: HOW IN THE HELL IS ONE STUN "TOO MANY"?

 

I would appreciate an answer. Thank You.