Is SWTOR the victim of WOW burnout?

[CommieKras]

The gaming INDUSTRY may have matured, but GAMERS have not. If anything, they've gone in the other direction, becoming whinier, more demanding, and more immature about any problems they perceive. As an example, the huge number of "oh my god, <feature> isn't in this game?! The game is doomed to faiillll! EPIC FAAAAILLLL!", etc.

 

It is whining to demand a quality product for our money? At the moment there is no reason to pay for TOR as long as superior titles exist. WoW, GW2 on the horizon, even multiple free titles look and play better than TOR. It is not our fault. BioWare and indeed all game designers must be held accountable to a high standard of quality.

 

BioWare used to have that sense of quality. Kotor I, Mass Effect I, Origins, Baldur's Gate, etc. Those were all quality titles that I enjoyed immensely. But with Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and now TOR, the decline in quality is obvious.

 

We gamers want *good* games. It's why I'll play CdProjeckt's Witcher series and recommend it to friends instead of BioWare games.

[darthdoll]

It is whining to demand a quality product for our money? At the moment there is no reason to pay for TOR as long as superior titles exist. WoW, GW2 on the horizon, even multiple free titles look and play better than TOR. It is not our fault. BioWare and indeed all game designers must be held accountable to a high standard of quality.

 

BioWare used to have that sense of quality. Kotor I, Mass Effect I, Origins, Baldur's Gate, etc. Those were all quality titles that I enjoyed immensely. But with Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and now TOR, the decline in quality is obvious.

 

We gamers want *good* games. It's why I'll play CdProjeckt's Witcher series and recommend it to friends instead of BioWare games.

 

Superior? I lol'd.

 

We all know TOR > WoW or GW2.

[Wimzerr]

It is whining to demand a quality product for our money? At the moment there is no reason to pay for TOR as long as superior titles exist. WoW, GW2 on the horizon, even multiple free titles look and play better than TOR. It is not our fault. BioWare and indeed all game designers must be held accountable to a high standard of quality.

 

BioWare used to have that sense of quality. Kotor I, Mass Effect I, Origins, Baldur's Gate, etc. Those were all quality titles that I enjoyed immensely. But with Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and now TOR, the decline in quality is obvious.

 

We gamers want *good* games. It's why I'll play CdProjeckt's Witcher series and recommend it to friends instead of BioWare games.

 

It feels more like Bioware is changing target audiences to more casual gamers, making most things streamlined, and when you throw in some corner cutting here and there, it shows majorly to people who have come to expect more from a company.

[Andryah]

This argument has been refuted several times over.

 

If by "refuted" you mean that people simply do not want to look at launch profiles for MMOs objectively, I guess.

 

However, pretending that other MMOs were trouble free, bug free, and lacked no features at launch IS subjective fantasy.

 

Comparing a very mature game state in an MMO that is 7 years old with one that has just a launched IS ALSO subjective fantasy.

 

Now, you are entitled to your fantasies for sure. Nobody can take those away from you. And in turn, you cannot may anyone accept them as reality.

[Wimzerr]

Superior? I lol'd.

 

We all know TOR > WoW or GW2.

 

I know a game that has major issues acknowledged by the developers is better than the most populated MMO and an unreleased one.

[Blotter]

I hold nothing against the players and their expectations for something more.

 

But that's just the thing. They don't want "more." They yammer incessantly about how the game isn't innovative out of one side of their mouths, calling it a WoW clone, and then proceed to comlpain bitterly that it doesn't have features X, Y and Z that WoW has. It's an irrational temper tantrum and nothing more.

[Rheemus]

It is whining to demand a quality product for our money? At the moment there is no reason to pay for TOR as long as superior titles exist. WoW, GW2 on the horizon, even multiple free titles look and play better than TOR. It is not our fault. BioWare and indeed all game designers must be held accountable to a high standard of quality.

 

BioWare used to have that sense of quality. Kotor I, Mass Effect I, Origins, Baldur's Gate, etc. Those were all quality titles that I enjoyed immensely. But with Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and now TOR, the decline in quality is obvious.

 

We gamers want *good* games. It's why I'll play CdProjeckt's Witcher series and recommend it to friends instead of BioWare games.

 

EXACTLY !

 

The kids that claim that the people who have legitimate critics of SWTOR are just out of sync with reality, are infact themselves COMPLETELY out of sync wit reality !

 

As you mentioned the VERY APPARENT DECREASE in quality of Bioware games (since Electronic Crap, took over) is staggering and very obvious. Not even realising this is being completely out of sync with reality.

[Wimzerr]

But that's just the thing. They don't want "more." They yammer incessantly about how the game isn't innovative out of one side of their mouths, calling it a WoW clone, and then proceed to comlpain bitterly that it doesn't have features X, Y and Z that WoW has. It's an irrational temper tantrum and nothing more.

 

It's because the things WoW has have become industry standard, just like an air conditioner in a car.

 

Sure, you don't need a combat log, but damn, it sure is nice to have one.

[CommieKras]

It feels more like Bioware is changing target audiences to more casual gamers, making most things streamlined, and when you throw in some corner cutting here and there, it shows majorly to people who have come to expect more from a company.

 

They are indeed going for the easy dollars versus actual quality. They want to appeal to the casual player when it has been their hardcore fans that have made them what they are. Their fans want more Baldur's Gate and less Dragon Age 2 but all BioWare can see is the profit that the Call of Duty series is garnering.

 

It's sad, really.

 

And as to the gentleman claiming that "TOR > WoW and GW2," let's not be ridiculous now.

[Vgbeee]

No. The problem lies when people only have the exposure of WoW.

WoW stops being a game and becomes the genre itself. That's what has happened. Rift dealt with it. SWTOR is dealing with. Every themepark will deal with it. When the next game comes out that isn't similar to WoW, people will complain that it's not enough like WoW. Doesn't have addons like WoW. Doesn't have Arenas like WoW. Doesn't have a launcher like WoW. Doesn't have a website like WoW. Doesn't have a game designer with name Ghost in it like WoW. WoW WoW WoW WoW WoW.

 

What people are sick of, they want most. What's different must conform to the familiar.

 

The entire reason people compare this game to WoW and are asking for the same features as WoW is because this game borrows HEAVILY from WoW. And by borrows, I mean it's basically a clone of WoW except with a star wars skin and Bioware storytelling draped over it.

 

Basically, if you're going to make a shameless clone of and already popular game, you should be at least as good as said game if you want to succeed. TOR is WoW with less content, less polish, less features, and a less talented developer behind it. No one (except the dedicated fans) wants to pay $60+$15 a month to play an inferior version of a game they've already played.

 

But that's just the thing. They don't want "more." They yammer incessantly about how the game isn't innovative out of one side of their mouths, calling it a WoW clone, and then proceed to comlpain bitterly that it doesn't have features X, Y and Z that WoW has. It's an irrational temper tantrum and nothing more.

 

No one would be complaining if there was something to make up for the lack of X, Y, and Z. If there was several innovative features exclusive to TOR that would differentiate it from WoW, something that would improve the experience and separate it from its spiritual father, then there wouldn't be all these complaints.

 

...But there isn't. It's just lacking X, Y, and Z with nothing in place of X, Y, and Z.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vgbeee

[darthdoll]

I know a game that has major issues acknowledged by the developers is better than the most populated MMO and an unreleased one.

 

Talking about WoW?

 

I know that game has major issues from day one and still does.

[zombiebuhada]

Blame EA not bioware.................

[byteresistor]

Superior? I lol'd.

 

We all know TOR > WoW or GW2.

You must be trollin'

 

I hate WoW, haven't played it for over 6 months, but despite that I can say it's miles ahead of ToR.

 

Give some examples which are done better in ToR than in WoW...

- voice acting? ok

- story? well maybe

- ??? ??? ???

[Wimzerr]

Talking about WoW?

 

I know that game has major issues from day one and still does.

 

Enlighten us and compare the issues admitted by the developers here and the ones on WoW. Gameplay issues, not social/exploitation issues, because I mean, let's face it. That credit exploit that allowed people to gain millions of credits an hour? Good bye economy.

[LyriaFrost]

It is whining to demand a quality product for our money?

 

Of course not. I never said it was. What I said was that gamers in general have become more whiny. You cannot argue that. Look at the forums for ANY game out there. Even the "superior" WoW, GW2, etc. They're full of screaming gamers demanding that "issue X" be fixed "immediately" or "the game will fail".

 

At the moment there is no reason to pay for TOR as long as superior titles exist. WoW, GW2 on the horizon, even multiple free titles look and play better than TOR. It is not our fault. BioWare and indeed all game designers must be held accountable to a high standard of quality.

 

Unless you actually enjoy the game? I've been having a lot of fun, myself. I haven't encountered a single "game breaking" bug. A few minor ones here and there, but I've learned to expect things like that after a decade and a half of playing MMOs. WoW doesn't appeal to me at all anymore. Played it for two years, got bored, left. Tried to go back, saw what a huge steaming pile it had become, and ran screaming. Never looking back.

 

When you say "superior", that's simply your opinion. To me, TOR is vastly superior to WoW, because it's the sort of game I prefer -- story-driven, immersive, and with tons of replayability.

 

BioWare used to have that sense of quality. Kotor I, Mass Effect I, Origins, Baldur's Gate, etc. Those were all quality titles that I enjoyed immensely. But with Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and now TOR, the decline in quality is obvious.

 

Again, this is all opinion. But it's the nature of gamers today. Opinion = fact, for most. "I think this sucks, therefore the game sucks, and if you disagree with me, you're just a fanboi/fangirl/whatever". That's the beauty of opinions. They can be different.

 

We gamers want *good* games. It's why I'll play CdProjeckt's Witcher series and recommend it to friends instead of BioWare games.

 

I consider TOR to be a good game. It's different than most other MMO's out there. I'm enjoying it. Does it have its flaws? Of course it does. EVERY MMO does. Hell, every GAME does.

 

The question is, can you look beyond the flaws and enjoy it for what it is, and know that they'll keep working to improve it? If so, great, have fun. If not, then obviously you should just move on and find something more to your liking.

Edited January 20, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[djsmileey]

Talking about WoW?

 

I know that game has major issues from day one and still does.

 

That can be said about:

 

Every Single MMO to Date...

 

NEVER EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HAS AN MMO RELEASED WITHOUT BUGS.

[Silvee]

I've read alot of the gripes and complaints on these forums, and i've come to the conclusion that the level of intolerance for bugs and tech issues is way beyond anything i've seen in any other game. The first few month of wow's launch, we experienced up to 20+ days of server down time. During that time i didn't feel the hatred i feel in the swtor forums. Personally I blame the burned out wowers who built unrealistic expectations.

 

Thoughts?

 

Not in my case, I will never go back to that game. The last expansion ruined the game (class and tree chnages) for me. I left over a year ago now and don't intend to ever reinstall. I am really enjoying this game and will continue to do so.

 

Great story lines and love the voice acting aspect. I do agree that there are bugs, but there not game breaking (game breaking as in no one can play not a select few). That being said they are working on the bugs and I am willing to enjoy my Star Wars experience while they do so.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

You must be trollin'

 

I hate WoW, haven't played it for over 6 months, but despite that I can say it's miles ahead of ToR.

 

Give some examples which are done better in ToR than in WoW...

- voice acting? ok

- story? well maybe

- ??? ??? ???

 

I've experienced fewer bugs in TOR than I did in WOTLK.

[Zezel]

I've read alot of the gripes and complaints on these forums, and i've come to the conclusion that the level of intolerance for bugs and tech issues is way beyond anything i've seen in any other game. The first few month of wow's launch, we experienced up to 20+ days of server down time. During that time i didn't feel the hatred i feel in the swtor forums. Personally I blame the burned out wowers who built unrealistic expectations.

 

Thoughts?

 

You mean lack of features, which are not bugs. Given this launch and the lack of features you would think this is the first MMO to be released ever.

 

For example Target of Target where is it and how do you miss this? Oh wait is was mentioned in Beta testing but ignored.

 

Game was slapchopped together period.

[CaffeineMonkey]

It's a victim of it's own developers. They made the choices that has made SWTOR what it is today.

 

Now the question to ask based upon that is, what choices will they make that will create the SWTOR of tomorrow. Will they listen to the whiners and give up before they've started or will they push forward and create something that will be better than it is now in a year or two down the road, once they remedied the bugs, did some balancing and added new content.

 

Personally I have faith that they will do good. Not right off the back, of course not. Nobody is perfect and a team or teams of people certainly isn't either. We're at 1.1 now, imagine you will, 1.9. Or even 2.7 for that matter.

 

Will their be bugs? Always, but will the bugs we have now ever be fixed? Certainly, only problem is knowing exactly how to fix them without pulling the rug from under anything else. That's why some bugs, in certain games are still not entirely 100% fixed. They just occur less frequently than they used to is all, think of it as, the 97% or even 83% fix. Cause if they did fix them 100%, it may have broken something else that was tied to it. Trust me, these things are literally like a game of Jenga. Sometimes it is best to leave it alone and work on something else less the whole thing comes crashing down.

 

What of balance issues? There will always be balance issues. Balance one thing and you just need to balance more to compensate. Damage too high? Nerf it, but wait. Now healing is too powerful compared to damage! Never ending cycle.

[CharagonIGN]

No, RIFT is the victim of WoW burnout.

 

SWTOR is the victim of some incredibly poorly thought out game design.

[Andryah]

Game was slapchopped together period.

 

Your attempt at passing yourself off as an executive game designer has failed. Please reboot now.

[darthdoll]

Enlighten us and compare the issues admitted by the developers here and the ones on WoW. Gameplay issues, not social/exploitation issues, because I mean, let's face it. That credit exploit that allowed people to gain millions of credits an hour? Good bye economy.

 

Lets see.

 

Bugs:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595578200?page=1#3

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3657425797

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3082032335

 

EDIT:

 

There was a bigger bug list, cant find it now.

 

Dont forget this http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3941414517

 

Ability delay... DUN dun dun!

 

Found the big list

 

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2313881411

 

 

 

Features:

 

Story

Combat

Endgame

FP's

VO's

Questing

PvP

 

^ All better in TOR, I've played WoW for 2 years so... And killed LK heroic 25, been there, done that.

Edited January 20, 2012 by darthdoll

[djsmileey]

You mean lack of features, which are not bugs. Given this launch and the lack of features you would think this is the first MMO to be released ever.

 

For example Target of Target where is it and how do you miss this? Oh wait is was mentioned in Beta testing but ignored.

 

Game was slapchopped together period.

 

So because THIS game doesn't have the features from ANOTHER game, THIS game is now worse for the wear.

 

Target of Target is hardly a necessity, and most other "addons" or "features" that people are demanding are just convenience and not necessity.

 

Thank you for your opinion, but I would like to remind you that it is just that... an opinion, and not even the popular one.

[CommieKras]

Of course not. I never said it was. What I said was that gamers in general have become more whiny. You cannot argue that. Look at the forums for ANY game out there. Even the "superior" WoW, GW2, etc. They're full of screaming gamers demanding that "issue X" be fixed "immediately" or "the game will fail".

 

Unless you actually enjoy the game? I've been having a lot of fun, myself. I haven't encountered a single "game breaking" bug. A few minor ones here and there, but I've learned to expect things like that after a decade and a half of playing MMOs. WoW doesn't appeal to me at all anymore. Played it for two years, got bored, left. Tried to go back, saw what a huge steaming pile it had become, and ran screaming. Never looking back.

 

When you say "superior", that's simply your opinion. To me, TOR is vastly superior to WoW, because it's the sort of game I prefer -- story-driven, immersive, and with tons of replayability.

 

Again, this is all opinion. But it's the nature of gamers today. Opinion = fact, for most. "I think this sucks, therefore the game sucks, and if you disagree with me, you're just a fanboi/fangirl/whatever". That's the beauty of opinions. They can be different.

 

I consider TOR to be a good game. It's different than most other MMO's out there. I'm enjoying it. Does it have its flaws? Of course it does. EVERY MMO does. Hell, every GAME does.

 

The question is, can you look beyond the flaws and enjoy it for what it is, and know that they'll keep working to improve it? If so, great, have fun. If not, then obviously you should just move on and find something more to your liking.

 

I shouldn't have to look beyond the flaws. Flaws should not exist in any quality released product to begin with. And I simply do not hold any stock in the argument that something is worthwhile because it's fun or it's worthwhile because that's your opinion of it. TOR has brought nothing new to the MMO table. Even voice acting has already been done in Champions Online. They have not innovated a single thing except maybe the crafting system but I think that's a terrible design so whatever.

 

At its core, TOR is still the dime-a-dozen MMO where you kill 0/10 spiders and collect 0/6 bear tongues on your journey to level cap where you can grind out raids and dailies. This *kills* its replayability. Absolutely *kills* it. I am in no way inclined to roll an alt for its story (1/10 of total quests) if I have to replay the same "side" quests (9/10 of total quests) in the same areas, with the same voice acting, and the same feeling to it all.