Solo flashpoints with companions

[Inarai]

And like I said, SWTOR already has too many reasons to NOT play with other players. Do we really need more still?

 

If you're trying to say that there shouldn't be good solo content period, you've entered the realm of an unsupportable argument.

 

It is not the case that the game's loaded with reasons not to - those would have to be elements that actively discourage it. The viability of solo play is a basic requirement, but it does not discourage group play - it doesn't encourage it, certainly, but an element doesn't HAVE to weigh on that.

 

Forced grouping is not something that can be added to an MMO that expects to survive. Also, players who like to solo for at least part of their play make up a significant portion of the market. However, there's right ways and wrong ways to create content for solo players - and the OP is asking for a wrong way and doesn't realize it (part of why games can't be designed by player input/consensus).

[TheRealDestian]

If you're trying to say that there shouldn't be good solo content period, you've entered the realm of an unsupportable argument.

 

Certainly not. The game is already 90% solo content, really.

 

I'm just saying that it'd be nice of the game to encourage socializing, like with Pazaak, for example.

 

The only thing that's ever kept me playing an MMO for more than a month at endgame was a good guild. I think most solo players are going to look at the fact that the only thing they'd be doing is grinding gear for a bunch of AIs and quit up due to lack of purpose.

[Inarai]

Certainly not. The game is already 90% solo content, really.

 

I'm just saying that it'd be nice of the game to encourage socializing, like with Pazaak, for example.

 

The only thing that's ever kept me playing an MMO for more than a month at endgame was a good guild. I think most solo players are going to look at the fact that the only thing they'd be doing is grinding gear for a bunch of AIs and quit up due to lack of purpose.

 

Right, but encouraging socializing doesn't mean not adding solo content. The fact that it reduces the encouragement of socialization and grouping IS a valid criticism of the OP's suggestion, but not of solo content in general.

 

Also, encouraging socialization that doesn't require grouping is also a good thing. Things like letting people access the mail system (for text only) without a mail terminal would make it more robust as a social feature. Cantina games and such would help. Some social networking functions would actually be a very smart addition for the sub-genre, given the dependence on social connections. Further, turning to people for help shouldn't have to be in terms of grouping up - having certain crafting services done on a personal basis instead of mostly anonymously over the GTN or HCTN would be helpful, for example.

[TheRealDestian]

Right, but encouraging socializing doesn't mean not adding solo content. The fact that it reduces the encouragement of socialization and grouping IS a valid criticism of the OP's suggestion, but not of solo content in general.

 

As I see it, the game has mostly solo content up until 50, then zero solo content.

 

This will be rather jarring for most players, and I've already seen a number of players who have said they'll quit after finishing the story (which is discouraging).

 

The key problem with endgame solo content is that it pangs of futility in that it'll never be enough to keep a solo player interested for long enough to matter. It'd be like a developer scrambling to develop content for a game while players are playing through it far faster than they can develop it.

 

The reason raids and ops work so well is that players can only do them once a week and it takes a group of players a good deal of time to get through them. This means that they can continue developing new content while it takes players a bit of time to chew through existing content.

 

Personally, I couldn't see bothering to play SWTOR in the endgame if all I was doing was gearing up companions. Are there people who could? I suppose, but I don't see it having long-term appeal when the story is over.

[Sabarok]

How do you command multiple companions? How do you tell them to avoid breaking CC? How do you tell them not to hit a certain mob that you don't want aggroed on a DPS companion?

 

Try STO and see how easy it is to command 3 companions. All you really need are generic commands like "focus on my target", "attack at will", "rally around me". The UI also has a point and click positioning system to direct companions to locations.

 

Companions are already smart enough to not break CC on their own with single target attacks, but they need to be fixed to not do their AoEs around CC. This needs to be done regardless of 3-companion.

 

And like I said, SWTOR already has too many reasons to NOT play with other players. Do we really need more still?

 

Most MMOs I've played have forced grouping by limiting aspects of progression to being group only. This is usually the end-game equipment via raids, but the old school grind MMOs also limited leveling to group only. LOTRO's main story line used to have group quests that would cause players to bottleneck before continuing.

 

STO was the first MMO I saw that used a passive encouragement for teaming. In STO, if two players entered the same mission at almost the same time (and still had the option enabled), they would be automatically teamed and the mission scaled up appropriately. It didn't happen very often, especially after the first week when players started leaving.

 

SWTOR has provided more passive encouragement for teaming. It has the social points and the multi-player chat system. This gives players an incentive to team for solo quests, something I have never seen in another MMO. IMO, SWTOR has more reasons to play with other players for leveling than any other quest based MMO.

 

Some of the ideas I put out that would make flashpoints more accessible to soloers are also the same ideas that would make flashpoints more accessible to groups as well. Try the LOTRO Skirmish system (another F2P game) and you'll see how well it encourages players to group together, while also providing content for solo players and keeping older content viable.

 

If 3-companion mode came with the ability to have 16 players with 3 companions each in a massive operation, would you still consider it an idea that runs counter to playing with others? Are you opposing the idea of being able to control 3 companions simply because it has a solo aspect to it?

 

You do know you can be in favour of parts of an idea without supporting the rest of it, right? It's not an all-or-nothing topic.

 

I oppose soloers being able to solo the group stuff on-level with the same reward, but I do favour soloers being able to solo an easier version of some group stuff with reduced rewards. This is because the reward is the incentive for grouping, and while I primarily solo I do respect the importance of grouping and those who like to group, so I want to keep the incentive intact.

 

I also favour completely the concept of being able to control 3 companions, because I know that in whatever manner that the 3-companion system is implemented, it will be done in a manner appropriate to however Bioware determines the former issue. Even if they decide to keep flashpoints as is and not soloable on-level, I'd still want to see 3-companion being implemented for something. It's a cool idea, regardless of the soloing group content aspect. It's not about running around the world with 3 companions, but rather having special instances where bringing 3 companions is permitted. Running around the world with 3 companions, while a totally cool idea, is also game breaking.

[grueber]

What do people do with companions once they hit 50?

 

Exactly.

 

Why not create an incentive to interact and gear them up?

 

With the exception of one companion the rest are either in the gear they came in or in their undies.

[Inarai]

SWTOR has provided more passive encouragement for teaming. It has the social points and the multi-player chat system. This gives players an incentive to team for solo quests, something I have never seen in another MMO. IMO, SWTOR has more reasons to play with other players for leveling than any other quest based MMO.

 

Some of the ideas I put out that would make flashpoints more accessible to soloers are also the same ideas that would make flashpoints more accessible to groups as well. Try the LOTRO Skirmish system (another F2P game) and you'll see how well it encourages players to group together, while also providing content for solo players and keeping older content viable.

 

Except that optional content that requires groups is part of what passively encourages people to play in groups. If you take that out, you weaken the model substantially.

 

And that is what the OP's idea does. At the end of the day, you literally cannot make every piece of content suit every playstyle, so there's no point trying to shoehorn a playstyle into content it doesn't fit with - complete waste of effort that isn't going to lead anywhere good.

[Sabarok]

Except that optional content that requires groups is part of what passively encourages people to play in groups. If you take that out, you weaken the model substantially.

 

And that is what the OP's idea does. At the end of the day, you literally cannot make every piece of content suit every playstyle, so there's no point trying to shoehorn a playstyle into content it doesn't fit with - complete waste of effort that isn't going to lead anywhere good.

 

I never said to take out the group content. The primary incentive to do the group content is for the reward. I was quite specific in keeping that incentive there, not removing group content. I am not the OP. His opinion isn't mine. If you're going to reply to me, at least have the courtesy to reply to what I wrote, not what the OP wrote.

 

If you need an explanation of the LOTRO Skirmish system I was talking about, I have mentioned it earlier but to save you looking through the whole thread, it's this: Scaleable instances. The level of the enemy scales to the level of the team leader (with a dropdown to narrow it down to a specific level). There are also options for group sizes (solo, 2 player, 3 player, 6, 12. In SWTOR, this would be 1, 2, 4, 8, 16). The number & type of enemies encountered also scales up based on the group size. There is a difficulty option. Higher difficulties increase the rewards. The best rewards are limited to the 6 & 12 sized groups to encourage players to team, but the content is still accessible to solo players. They are incredibly popular among all players, both solo and group. They not onyl provide at-will content for any sized group, but the scaleable enemies also means that the old skirmishes unlocked at level 20 are still worth doing at level 75. I feel SWTOR's Flashpoint system would make a great candidate to be converted into this style of gameplay and that it would be a great enhancement.

 

How you can take that idea and interpret it as removing group content is beyond me.

[NoxiousAlby]

Except that optional content that requires groups is part of what passively encourages people to play in groups. If you take that out, you weaken the model substantially.

 

And that is what the OP's idea does. At the end of the day, you literally cannot make every piece of content suit every playstyle, so there's no point trying to shoehorn a playstyle into content it doesn't fit with - complete waste of effort that isn't going to lead anywhere good.

 

All I know Inarai is that when you pigeon hole players into one specific playing style or force individuals into guilds the results arent good for the game either as we saw in another game last year.

 

I suppose I would be happy playing multiple characters until i've exhausted the available storylines but even then after 6 months theres no longer any motivation to play.

 

I've been in many guilds over the years and only one comes to mind where I enjoyed the atmosphere and players. But the main reason I stopped joining guilds was to stop using 3rd party chat programs, many players might not understand when you have a spouse and spend hours talking to others and not them it tends to cause issues.

 

Just to dispel a myth being perpetrated about players like myself getting bored after gearing our companions, this isnt true. Firstly many players like myself dont have just 1 character, we have multiple characters. Given the time to gear each character and their companions could take months. Added to which if it was on a once a week lockout you could be looking at 6 months or more.

 

Does there need to be more content for solo players, yes. Should it be on par with content designed for pve & pvp'ers, I believe so. It wouldnt take to long to re-release existing flashpoint modified for solo play with companions. The work involved would be minimal because the scripts already exist for the scenery, I dont want existing material changed for those who enjoy it as it is.

 

But as the respondants show in my thread there is a demand for this type of play, if nothing more it will keep people playing & paying.

[Sabarok]

All I know Inarai is that when you pigeon hole players into one specific playing style or force individuals into guilds the results arent good for the game either as we saw in another game last year.

 

<snip>

 

Does there need to be more content for solo players, yes. Should it be on par with content designed for pve & pvp'ers, I believe so. It wouldnt take to long to re-release existing flashpoint modified for solo play with companions. The work involved would be minimal because the scripts already exist for the scenery, I dont want existing material changed for those who enjoy it as it is.

 

When you say "on par", does that include loot & reward? I'm all for giving solo players more to do and more access to the less used content, but not at the expense of rendering the group version pointless. That would be pigeon holing them into more solo play.

[Dharst]

I prefer that people have to work together, this isn't a single player game and shouldn't tailor everything to be completed single player. I think this will also cause people to fight more over gear to give to their companions.

 

If that were true- their LFG tool would be more than it is.

 

I have easily proven that grouping is not remotely needed or required to finish the story and get to cap... at which point end-game is under-developed.

 

And you think it's not a single player game? How do you figure? I solo heroics on my commando all the time.

[NoxiousAlby]

When you say "on par", does that include loot & reward? I'm all for giving solo players more to do and more access to the less used content, but not at the expense of rendering the group version pointless. That would be pigeon holing them into more solo play.

 

No, by "on par" in reference to my earlier statement I meant frequency of content

 

As far as loot goes i'd settle for inferior gear upgrades on normal solo player plus 3 companions, but at the same time if they could have a more difficult level with gear on par with normal mode 4 player it would be a bonus. Let me be clear though, what i'm asking for isnt really about gear, it's the ability to immerse yourself in group play with your companions. I've never played an MMO with companions before (pets yes) and I think they are a great addition to the game, my only regret is you can only use one otherwise class quests would be to easy.

 

Looking at the class section of the forums many people have found it difficult to complete some of their class quests without help. So I believe it would be possible to tweak the difficulty to a point to make it an extreme challenge for some & impossible for others.

[Inarai]

All I know Inarai is that when you pigeon hole players into one specific playing style or force individuals into guilds the results arent good for the game either as we saw in another game last year.

 

And for the one millionth time, I'm not talking about doing that. I want to see good solo content with a challenge and quality on par with that of other forms of content, and your suggestion is utterly, entirely, irreparably incapable of offering that.

 

Stop trying to pretend I'm anti-solo, or that I'm trying to force people into particular types of content. All types of content serve different playstyles, end of story. The way content has to be to adequately serve a solo playstyle is very different from how it has to be to adequately serve a group playstyle - one cannot simply be switched into the other.

[Inarai]

When you say "on par", does that include loot & reward? I'm all for giving solo players more to do and more access to the less used content, but not at the expense of rendering the group version pointless. That would be pigeon holing them into more solo play.

 

Solo gear wouldn't be the same as group gear. Nor would it be weaker - it would be as strong for solo content as group gear is for group content, and the two wouldn't crossover well.

 

Recall that Presence is, effectively, a solo stat.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Inarai

[Inarai]

I never said to take out the group content. The primary incentive to do the group content is for the reward. I was quite specific in keeping that incentive there, not removing group content. I am not the OP. His opinion isn't mine. If you're going to reply to me, at least have the courtesy to reply to what I wrote, not what the OP wrote.

 

If you need an explanation of the LOTRO Skirmish system I was talking about, I have mentioned it earlier but to save you looking through the whole thread, it's this: Scaleable instances. The level of the enemy scales to the level of the team leader (with a dropdown to narrow it down to a specific level). There are also options for group sizes (solo, 2 player, 3 player, 6, 12. In SWTOR, this would be 1, 2, 4, 8, 16). The number & type of enemies encountered also scales up based on the group size. There is a difficulty option. Higher difficulties increase the rewards. The best rewards are limited to the 6 & 12 sized groups to encourage players to team, but the content is still accessible to solo players. They are incredibly popular among all players, both solo and group. They not onyl provide at-will content for any sized group, but the scaleable enemies also means that the old skirmishes unlocked at level 20 are still worth doing at level 75. I feel SWTOR's Flashpoint system would make a great candidate to be converted into this style of gameplay and that it would be a great enhancement.

 

How you can take that idea and interpret it as removing group content is beyond me.

 

Good sources of difficulty aren't scalable, because they're not numerical - they're tactical and strategic, and they have to be built around what's going to be coming in. Trying to adapt group content into solo content without significant redevelopment is not going to produce strong and satisfying content offering its own progression.

[Droidist]

To be honest, I hadn't thought of taking all three companions, and I do think it would be a neat idea, or even two, a healer and tank, or dps, etc to fill in your group.

 

We currently cc groups we encounter now (at least I do as a sniper), so doing so in a flash point would still be doable as well.

 

I still think scalable flash points would instantly give one, two, three or even four people something to do (besides space and pvp) without needing to find that last player all the time.

 

I hope BioW considers this as I think it would open the game to many more people, which I think would be healthy.

 

One flash point would reach all players.

A rubric of single, two, three and four player boss abilities would make designer simpler.

Art content for all with one flash point.

Story line for all.

 

Currently, solo content is seperate from group content, imagine hitting two birds with one stone so to speak... an idea worth considering.

 

It would in the end, make game devlopment more effecient and reach a wider audience.

 

Thanks for all the discussion and feedback, I appreciate it.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Droidist

[NoxiousAlby]

To be honest, I hadn't thought of taking all three companions, and I do think it would be a neat idea, or even two, a healer and tank, or dps, etc to fill in your group.

 

We currently cc groups we encounter now (at least I do as a sniper), so doing so in a flash point would still be doable as well.

 

I still think scalable flash points would instantly give one, two, three or even four people something to do (besides space and pvp) without needing to find that last player all the time.

 

I hope BioW considers this as I think it would open the game to many more people, which I think would be healthy.

 

One flash point would reach all players.

A rubric of single, two, three and four player boss abilities would make designer simpler.

Art content for all with one flash point.

Story line for all.

 

Currently, solo content is seperate from group content, imagine hitting two birds with one stone so to speak... an idea worth considering.

 

It would in the end, make game devlopment more effecient and reach a wider audience.

 

Thanks for all the discussion and feedback, I appreciate it.

 

Thankyou Droidist,

I to think this would enable the game to reach a wider audience, but more importantly would allow for end game content for solo players.

[Lerthan]

That's the issue though, You have the same chance as any other player to experience the content and gain the rewards from said content.

 

Its your choice not to run with other players. Do you miss out on some of the content yes but that is a direct result of your choice.

[SentinelDranoel]

i agree with the thread creator, of course i would rather have kotor 3,4,5 and more then swtor.

[NoxiousAlby]

That's the issue though, You have the same chance as any other player to experience the content and gain the rewards from said content.

 

Its your choice not to run with other players. Do you miss out on some of the content yes but that is a direct result of your choice.

 

It's not a question of in order to obtain X you must do Y, it is upto the game developers to supply content that will keep all the playerbase happy and not just the 5 - 10%. Even Blizzard this year realised the importance of keeping their solo & casual playerbase happy by introducing a random raid finder which at any other time over the past 7 years would have been sneered at.

 

As far as choice goes, where's my choice as to where my $15 a month goes towards developing end game content? If it were upto me I would not be paying for content develpment that I choose not to use.

 

Sadly your entire arguement is the same as every other dissenter, it's about "gear" and the great fear factor that someone else will get gear equivalent to your own without getting it the way you did. Sad indeed

 

Well this will be a game breaker for me, as once i've finished level capping the characters I want to play the story for there will be no reason to continue playing. That gives BW approx another 4 months at the most, 7 years I spent playing a game that chose to ignore is casual & solo customers and I will never do that again.

[Lerthan]

It's not a question of in order to obtain X you must do Y, it is upto the game developers to supply content that will keep all the playerbase happy and not just the 5 - 10%. Even Blizzard this year realised the importance of keeping their solo & casual playerbase happy by introducing a random raid finder which at any other time over the past 7 years would have been sneered at.

 

As far as choice goes, where's my choice as to where my $15 a month goes towards developing end game content? If it were upto me I would not be paying for content develpment that I choose not to use.

 

Sadly your entire arguement is the same as every other dissenter, it's about "gear" and the great fear factor that someone else will get gear equivalent to your own without getting it the way you did. Sad indeed

 

Well this will be a game breaker for me, as once i've finished level capping the characters I want to play the story for there will be no reason to continue playing. That gives BW approx another 4 months at the most, 7 years I spent playing a game that chose to ignore is casual & solo customers and I will never do that again.

 

It has nothing to do with gear. It has everything to do with if you want to experience the content you need to do what is required. Why should you as a solo player be able to go in to a flashpoint that normally requires 3 other players and get the exact same reward? Sorry but you shouldn't its your choice not to go find the other 3 players. Not poor design preventing you from coming in and doing it.

 

Am I saying that there shouldn't be more solo content no. I am saying that if you want to do the group content then you need to get a group.

 

If you want a pure solo experience, then honestly MMO's will never cut it for you. Sorry there will be areas and content that you will not get to experience if you choose to play that way but guess what its not because you dint have an equal chance at experiencing it. It is simply you chose not to.

 

Your argument is akin to me whining about never getting to see a warzone because I choose not to PvP. Its my choice not to see those areas not the games fault or anybody elses fault for keeping me from experiencing it.

[NoxiousAlby]

It has nothing to do with gear. It has everything to do with if you want to experience the content you need to do what is required. Why should you as a solo player be able to go in to a flashpoint that normally requires 3 other players and get the exact same reward? Sorry but you shouldn't its your choice not to go find the other 3 players. Not poor design preventing you from coming in and doing it.

Absolutely nothing to do with gear and yet your greatest concern in this paragraph is "reward". You need to be a bit more subtle if to be believed, also if you would read back a page or 2 you would find that "gear/reward" was a concern for the 3rd player to disagree with my request (you are the 4th). You will see that I would be happy to accept a lesser reward if for no other reason than to keep the players at bay who worry more about others than themselves.

 

The main reason for this request is to be able to utlise our companions, at current we use 1 while the other 5 sit back in our ships doing nothing. How much more immersive would the game be if you could utilise them to form groups? I think even one poster suggested a 4 player flshpoint where they all start at different points on the map grouped with 3 companions till they meet up. Reward is nice but this is about getting the most out of what we have already been given, the companion system...which I might add is fantastic.

Am I saying that there shouldn't be more solo content no. I am saying that if you want to do the group content then you need to get a group.

And yet group content is not what the majority of players want, weve had 15 years of being pigeon holed into group content. This game is one of the first to offer a fantastic solo play in an MMO environment, but sadly it stops at 50.

 

If you want a pure solo experience, then honestly MMO's will never cut it for you. Sorry there will be areas and content that you will not get to experience if you choose to play that way but guess what its not because you dint have an equal chance at experiencing it. It is simply you chose not to.

I refer to the above answer, SWTOR is a solo play game with grouping end game. I am saying why stop at 50? Do you truly think that joining a group with 3 other anonymous players is satisfying? You cant play at your own speed, your only as strong as your weakest player, players need on all drops, you wait around for 30min - 1hr for a group, Not being able to do a run when you have the time, adhering to a guild schedule, you want me to go on?

If you think solo play games cant be MMO's then you have no idea what an MMO is.

 

Your argument is akin to me whining about never getting to see a warzone because I choose not to PvP. Its my choice not to see those areas not the games fault or anybody elses fault for keeping me from experiencing it.

Sorry but a bad anology is bad, I choose to run flashpoints & heroics but with 3 companions is very different to the example you gave. By and large it matters little what you & I think because in the end BW will add this content or some players will become very bored once the storylines are exhausted and leave.

Edited February 11, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

[profhermit]

I am a hermit, and do most everything in real life alone.

 

While SWTOR is classified as an mmo, it still allows people like myself to run solo for the most part. Bioware is making good $$$ from many like me who are paying the monthly subscription just to play by ourselves.

 

Maybe in the future, after many of the other issues / bugs have been worked out, bioware will experiment with a solo option with companions.

 

SWTOR is my first mmo. I would really enjoy taking multiple companions to heroics / operations / flashpoints. I could leave healer back and fight myself, or stay back to be healer myself (if class appropriate) and control the actions of companions.

[Jay_Stocker]

Although i did find this fun during my leveling...

 

 

during the trooper storyline you have all of your companions out taking over a ship/station

 

 

it really would diminish the aspect of the MMO in the game. Flashpoints are there to be harder content where you need to group up.

[Lerthan]

Absolutely nothing to do with gear and yet your greatest concern in this paragraph is "reward". You need to be a bit more subtle if to be believed, also if you would read back a page or 2 you would find that "gear/reward" was a concern for the 3rd player to disagree with my request (you are the 4th). You will see that I would be happy to accept a lesser reward if for no other reason than to keep the players at bay who worry more about others than themselves.

 

The main reason for this request is to be able to utlise our companions, at current we use 1 while the other 5 sit back in our ships doing nothing. How much more immersive would the game be if you could utilise them to form groups? I think even one poster suggested a 4 player flshpoint where they all start at different points on the map grouped with 3 companions till they meet up. Reward is nice but this is about getting the most out of what we have already been given, the companion system...which I might add is fantastic.

 

And yet group content is not what the majority of players want, weve had 15 years of being pigeon holed into group content. This game is one of the first to offer a fantastic solo play in an MMO environment, but sadly it stops at 50.

 

 

I refer to the above answer, SWTOR is a solo play game with grouping end game. I am saying why stop at 50? Do you truly think that joining a group with 3 other anonymous players is satisfying? You cant play at your own speed, your only as strong as your weakest player, players need on all drops, you wait around for 30min - 1hr for a group, Not being able to do a run when you have the time, adhering to a guild schedule, you want me to go on?

If you think solo play games cant be MMO's then you have no idea what an MMO is.

 

 

Sorry but a bad anology is bad, I choose to run flashpoints & heroics but with 3 companions is very different to the example you gave. By and large it matters little what you & I think because in the end BW will add this content or some players will become very bored once the storylines are exhausted and leave.

Reward in this case is experiencing the storyline and the content that group content has to offer without doing what is needed to actually go experience it. My analogy stands, you are whining because you want to go experience flashpoints aka group content without forming a group with the other players.

 

It is exactly like me saying I want to experience the warzones but I don't want to have to compete against or kill other players. Its my choice not to experience that content just like its your choice to not group up with other players to experience flash point content.

 

Your over all Idea of having something besides crafting to do with our companions is commendable. This just isn't the path for it. I am all for more solo content but guess what not at the cost of group content.