Why people hate arenas

[Dalindran]

LOL just saw you posted this too!

 

Yeah it took some work to find the interview again, but I got sick and tired of people claiming the article said one thing without posting the actual quotes, when it clearly said "it was one of our greatest design mistakes" just like I originally said it did.

 

Have fun !

[EternalFinality]

Exactly what was said

 

""If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there.""

 

 

learn to read. quit pulling **** out of context and type a search into google.

 

You're just making your side look stupid on the issue.

 

I'm not sure how that invalidates that they admitted adding arenas was their biggest mistake. Because it was. Because they designed a PvE game from the start.

 

(Guess what? So did Bioware....)

[Vlaid]

Completely false. LOL They said that they would of either made WoW more like an eSport game from the beginning or NOT DO IT AT ALL.

 

LOL seriously dude, just give up son. You've been wrong 24/7.

 

if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there." Sounds like he's denouncing the idea doesn't it?

 

Guess what? SWTOR wasn't designed as an eSport game. So all of us bringing up this interview, has complete merit. More over - past is prologue.

 

Check and mate

 

Oh here's the link to the article for you.

http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/6773-Five-Years-of-Warcraft-Speaking-With-Blizzards-Rob-Pardo.2

 

Yes. They did say not doing it at all was an option, if they could do it over again.

 

A far cry from your trollish claims that they denounced arena entirely.

 

I'm not seeing where you think you check mated anything? You made a lie, I called you on it, and now you're trying to backpedal your way into saying you didn't claim "Blizz denounced arena".

 

Sorry bud. I can read, hopefully others can too.

[Lazorous]

Arena puts the emphasis on you and you balancing against every other build. These changes stop being about playing as a team and more about playing for yourself.

 

I'll have to disagree here. In an Arena environment, it is heavily team based. There's no way you can win without really paying attention to what you're doing, and what your team mates are doing (assuming you're not fighting a completely nub team). If you were just going in there for kills, and not protecting your healer, or bursting at the right moment in a coordinated effort, you will kill the team.

 

Warzones, is a team game, but it's very objective based. If one or two people decide to mess around and go for top kills or top dps, or most medals, it doesn't necessarily mean the death of the team. If 1 person out of a 3 player Arena team messes around, then it's usually GG.

 

Additionally, because the arena concept (assuming we're basing this on WoW Arenas), each player can choose to sacrifice a certain spec they usually prefer, to a spec that benefits the team the most. Therefore, it's not really about yourself, if you want to advance in an Arena environment.

[Ravashakk]

it's easy to say that on a forum with 0 proof lol... I wouldnt have fun in arena though if I couldnt break 2200 so I can see where you're coming from now.

 

This is why we don't need arena....

[BloatedGuppy]

Yes. They did say not doing it at all was an option, if they could do it over again.

 

A far cry from your trollish claims that they denounced arena entirely.

 

I'm not seeing where you think you check mated anything? You made a lie, I called you on it, and now you're trying to backpedal your way into saying you didn't claim "Blizz denounced arena".

 

Sorry bud. I can read, hopefully others can too.

 

Blizzard likes e-sports. They developed Starcraft, after all. This is them admitting that the framework to support an e-sport game wasn't there, and the game would need a complete re-design to properly implement them.

 

That's pretty much "denouncing Arenas", because "Arenas" was what we called the form "e-sports" took in WoW.

 

He's not denouncing e-sports. Blizzard LOVES e-sports.

 

He's denouncing Arenas. Because Arenas were silly.

[jdnyc]

Yes. They did say not doing it at all was an option, if they could do it over again.

 

A far cry from your trollish claims that they denounced arena entirely.

 

I'm not seeing where you think you check mated anything? You made a lie, I called you on it, and now you're trying to backpedal your way into saying you didn't claim "Blizz denounced arena".

 

Sorry bud. I can read, hopefully others can too.

 

They can and the majority agree with me. "Maybe we shouldn't go there." Under the question of Greatest Design Mistake isn't denouncing Arena? LOL k, thx bye

[jdnyc]

Blizzard likes e-sports. They developed Starcraft, after all. This is them admitting that the framework to support an e-sport game wasn't there, and the game would need a complete re-design to properly implement them.

 

That's pretty much "denouncing Arenas", because "Arenas" was what we called the form "e-sports" took in WoW.

 

He's not denouncing e-sports. Blizzard LOVES e-sports.

 

He's denouncing Arenas. Because Arenas were silly.

 

This^^^^

[Talkative]

Blizzard likes e-sports. They developed Starcraft, after all. This is them admitting that the framework to support an e-sport game wasn't there, and the game would need a complete re-design to properly implement them.

 

That's pretty much "denouncing Arenas", because "Arenas" was what we called the form "e-sports" took in WoW.

 

He's not denouncing e-sports. Blizzard LOVES e-sports.

 

He's denouncing Arenas. Because Arenas were silly.

Not sure how many times this needs to be repeated.

[Kitsummerisle]

Blizzard has a lot of games that are very competitive, from WoW to SC to WC, almost everyone game they make screams yes to competitive PvP.

[Ravashakk]

Arena is what kept me and irl mates playing for years sorry to hear you are sub 1500 though.

 

I hear WoW calling you back to work on your elite arena rating.

 

But I do find this post amusing. Did you even do arena back when you started at 1500 rating? Or is your experience so limited to the last year or two and now you walk around like billy ******, the internet tough guy?

Edited January 20, 2012 by Ravashakk

[Vulm]

Damn, if theres not going to be any sort of rated competitive pvp in this game I may aswell unsub now. Doesn't have to be arena, could be a new idea that Bioware could come up with helped by the playerbase. Could even just be rated WZs.

 

If other players follow the consensus of this thread then wow, the future of this game doesn't look promising from my perspective.

 

I find it is incredible how the vast majority of MMORPG populations are completely against challenge.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vulm

[Dalindran]

Yes. They did say not doing it at all was an option, if they could do it over again.

 

A far cry from your trollish claims that they denounced arena entirely.

 

I'm not seeing where you think you check mated anything? You made a lie, I called you on it, and now you're trying to backpedal your way into saying you didn't claim "Blizz denounced arena".

 

Sorry bud. I can read, hopefully others can too.

 

I don't think "denounce" means what you think it means.

 

Referring to something as the greatest design mistake they've made in 5 years, saying if they had to do it over again they would probably not do it, is a pretty damn accurate definition of the word "denounce". Perhaps you should go look up "denounce" in the dictionary before you look even more foolish. Here let me save you the google search:

 

de·nounce/diˈnouns/

Verb:

 

1.Publicly declare to be wrong or evil.

2. Inform against.

 

In case you are still somewhat confused, to say something was a mistake, is also to say it was wrong, as rarely if ever are mistakes considered "right".

 

Have fun !

[Bozse]

Arenas forces the developers to balance the game around small number PvP such as 1vs1 2vs2, even Blizzard admitted that arenas had a negative impact on WoW.

 

Having said that, rated x-server warzones would be a way to allow competitive PvP.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Bozse

[BloatedGuppy]

Damn, if theres not going to be any sort of rated competitive pvp in this game I may aswell unsub now. Doesn't have to be arena, could be a new idea that Bioware could come up with helped by the playerbase. Could even just be rated WZs.

 

If other players follow the consensus of this thread then wow, the future of this game doesn't look promising from my perspective.

 

I find it is incredible how the vast majority of MMORPG populations are completely against challenge.

Oh I'm sure there WILL be some form of rated competition in TOR. And just like Arenas, it will be completely ridiculous, and anyone who actually likes fair, balanced PvP will immediately recognize it as such, and have a good little laugh.

 

This isn't a "challenge" question at all, and it's a weird place for that particular rant. That you apparently believe WoW's Arenas represented some gold standard of "challenge", however, is frankly alarming.

Edited January 20, 2012 by BloatedGuppy

[Tikita]

So going back to the OP. If I don't like Arenas I am a bad player? I don't want Arenas in SWTOR because they wouldn't work. They have only worked in one MMO before really well, and no it wasn't "That other game".

 

They worked in Guild Wars and was fantastic. But that's because the game was designed around it and built up around Arenas. The balance existed for them, and with the ability to duel-class and a limit on how many skills you could take in to them allowed the players to make the balance. Arenas in Warcraft put a lot of people off Arenas because the balance was awful. From Season 1-Present RMP was insanely powerful. Only a few FOTM comps ever took it's place, and even then not for long.

 

Not to mention that the amount of player's taking part in PvP and Arenas in WoW is on a huge decline. Why would you implement something that has more chance of causing people to leave than to start playing.

 

TL:DR - SWTOR wasn't created for PvP or arena so the balance isn't there. It would require a reworking of the game to make it work, for what will be less than 10% of the population.

[Rehash]

Exactly what was said

 

""If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there.""

 

 

learn to read. quit pulling **** out of context and type a search into google.

 

You're just making your side look stupid on the issue.

 

+1. People always say that without taking the entire quote into context.

 

I also think the problem is with multiple team sizes. Trying to balance a game around 2v2s 3v3s AND 5v5s is very difficult. It would be much easier if Blizzard had only picked one game size and balanced around that. Arenas are fun and should be implemented (with one team size) as part of a ladder system with no gear rewards. It would also help if stats were normalized in arenas, it would make balancing them much easier.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Rehash

[KorwinOfAmber]

Please, dont put "arena" and "pvp" in same sentance. Its like calling "golf" a "martial art". It can be considered sport of a kind, but putting it with real athletic sports or even better combat arts or real warfare is a stretch beyond belief.

 

Arena is not "pvp" - arena is glorified mini game.

 

I turn OPs argument back on him - people wishing for "arena" are people that suck at real PvP. Notice how the people asking for arena are the same people whining about "hard targeting in swtor", "gimme healbot or i quit!" and "allow macros! skill is not about your reaction speed and twitch! its about decision making and planning!"

 

You people should understand by now, that majority of internet views you as nothing more than little kids obsessed with pointless minigame. You telling others "they hate arena because they suck at it" is like you claiming we dont care about kids Beyblade or toy car tournaments since we suck at the.

 

Arena is a refugee for people that dont want to play a MMO, not even a multiplayer game, a simple metagame that has nothing absolutely to do with game at hand - but want to claim they achieved something in it.

 

Notice that people are against "WOW" Arenas - not rated PvP as whole. I for example, think GW pvp was awesome, but WoW is plain horrible.

 

People comming to SWTOR forums and asking for "arena`s" just instantly reveal themself as two bads at ones "wow players" and "wow lolpvpers" loosing all respect in the argument before they even start (a final blow being mentioning their uber rating )

[Iamurfriend]

Anyone saying Arena is based solely on class composition and gear is just bad. The biggest element to arena is/was skill and I think some people have a hard time facing the fact that they didn't get 2200+ because they just weren't good enough.

[Vlaid]

Blizzard likes e-sports. They developed Starcraft, after all. This is them admitting that the framework to support an e-sport game wasn't there, and the game would need a complete re-design to properly implement them.

 

That's pretty much "denouncing Arenas", because "Arenas" was what we called the form "e-sports" took in WoW.

 

He's not denouncing e-sports. Blizzard LOVES e-sports.

 

He's denouncing Arenas. Because Arenas were silly.

 

The argument was wither Blizz "denounced arenas", they did not, as you so eloquently put "denounce arenas" as that would imply they are denouncing them in a general sense, not just in WoW, not even just in MMO's.

 

They denounced making an e-sport game without considering the e-sport side of it from the beginning, which they didn't do.

 

Hence my uproar where one troll after another claims the devs think arena was the biggest mistake in WoW by virtue of it being arena without listing the full quote, mentioning that they would have liked (if they did it) to include it from the start with the sturcturing in place to make it succeed.

 

I don't tolerate people spreading false information very well, and the trolls constantly berating down the door with these ignorant comments get tiresome. They spread ignorance with more ignorance.

 

I understand completely where the quote came from and agree with that dev. However I don't agree with people using it as their biggest arguement against arenas in any MMO that doesn't ship with them by claiming "SEE! LOOK! ANOTHER MMO THAT DID IT SAID IT WAS A MISTAKE!" That's just silly. MMO's evolve, grow, and push forward. If they don't, they wither and die like so many others that didn't last more than a couple years.

 

The quote is not saying that arena itself is a mistake, nor that it was a mistake in WoW. Just that they would have rather taken arena into the game from launch, or not done it at all because they didn't put the proper structure in place to do both. People seem to always leave out the part where they might have rather just included it from the start as part of the core game. That's the part that makes it obvious to me that many people just don't read the quote and spam the drivel of "BLIZ HATES ARENA! BIGGEST MISTAKE EVAH!" which is 100% false.

[Iamurfriend]

Please, dont put "arena" and "pvp" in same sentance. Its like calling "golf" a "martial art". It can be considered sport of a kind, but putting it with real athletic sports or even better combat arts or real warfare is a stretch beyond belief.

 

Arena is not "pvp" - arena is glorified mini game.

 

I turn OPs argument back on him - people wishing for "arena" are people that suck at real PvP. Notice how the people asking for arena are the same people whining about "hard targeting in swtor", "gimme healbot or i quit!" and "allow macros! skill is not about your reaction speed and twitch! its about decision making and planning!"

 

You people should understand by now, that majority of internet views you as nothing more than little kids obsessed with pointless minigame. You telling others "they hate arena because they suck at it" is like you claiming we dont care about kids Beyblade or toy car tournaments since we suck at the.

 

Arena is a refugee for people that dont want to play a MMO, not even a multiplayer game, a simple metagame that has nothing absolutely to do with game at hand - but want to claim they achieved something in it.

 

Notice that people are against "WOW" Arenas - not rated PvP as whole. I for example, think GW pvp was awesome, but WoW is plain horrible.

 

People comming to SWTOR forums and asking for "arena`s" just instantly reveal themself as two bads at ones "wow players" and "wow lolpvpers" loosing all respect in the argument before they even start (a final blow being mentioning their uber rating )

 

^^^^TLDR: I'm bad at skill based pvp so it shouldn't exist

[EternalFinality]

Is Paper-Scissors-Rock skill based PvP?

[Baryon]

I refuse to accept that any such thing as Esport exists. As an athlete I find calling anything a sport where you sit on your arse clicking a mouse is retarded. Similar to Chess being called a sport. Dumbest stuff I've heard. Now I've gotten that off my chest.

 

The reason why arena is a bad idea for SWTOR, and why it was bad for WoW, is the fact that it leads to balancing around a certain gameplay, i.e. 3's, or 2's or 4's whatever. It just means you will get huge issues with balancing a game that already works fairly well. And the only way to go around it is to create FOTM classes so everyone gets their 15 min of fame. Not for me thanks.

[Baryon]

Is Paper-Scissors-Rock skill based PvP?

 

If not, I bet Rock-Paper-Scissor-Lizzard-Spock, is.

[Dalindran]

+1. People always say that without taking the entire quote into context.

 

I also think the problem is with multiple team sizes. Trying to balance a game around 2v2s 3v3s AND 5v5s is very difficult. It would be much easier if Blizzard had only picked one game size and balanced around that. Arenas are fun and should be implemented (with one team size) as part of a ladder system with no gear rewards. It would also help if stats were normalized in arenas, it would make balancing them much easier.

 

Swtor already has this, it's 8v8 and called a WZ. Exactly how does having smaller groups and no objectives other than "last man standing" make something more "lol-challenging" and a test of "lol-skill"? I sincerely have never understood the thought process behind that rationale.

 

I mean if you want to play "fight club style duels" with your buddies, nobody is stopping you from organizing such. I don't think taking part in such a system is challenging personally, and I likewise don't think it addresses the "skill" issue that so many who loved arenas are so hung up on, but there is nothing stopping you from arranging and taking part in such nonsense.

 

Seeing as you can talk cross faction it shouldn't be that hard to arrange. The Developers shouldn't have to waste design hours to create a format for something you can do on your own, and at best serves the smallest of pvp niches. I am willing to go out on a limb and say most pvp'ers are probably more interested in good world pvp rather than ranked or laddered "canned hunts".

 

Have fun !