PvP 'DPS' Immortal Build 32/7/2

[Khabarach]

You arn't going to be better then sorc/merc DPS. You arn't going to be better then Operative burst. If you want to play those roles, then play those classes. The only roles I see that Jugs can offer in PvP at the moment and be viable is either the build I've described (or slight variations of at least 31 into Immortal). The other 'viable' build I would have to say is Rage spec, but I don't like the survivability issues it has.

I'd disagree. Personally I don't think the full 31 points in Immortal is worth it. If you are going to go for an 'objective' based build (which is essentially what the Immortal tree is for), then Unstoppable is Incredibly good and I'd easily value it over Crushing Blow.

 

Even ignoring the Huttball utility of Unstoppable, if you use force charge and force push on cooldown, it basically makes you immune to cc for roughly 30% of the battle, as well as reducing your damage taken by 20% for that time period.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Khabarach

[daays]

You could also use the down time change guards, taunts, spam slow. Those things are pretty useful if you are in the thick of the battle.

 

You can do all those things as any spec.

 

Immortal doesn't fit a role for PvP. It's better to be Vengeance.

Edited January 22, 2012 by daays

[Samurro]

You can do all those things as any spec.

 

Immortal doesn't fit a role for PvP. It's better to be Vengeance.

 

********

[Baz_Kahuna]

OP, you can remove that one line about people not knowing how to play the class, that's not how you write a guide.

 

Indeed, as well as the line that says 'I will educate you'... While this post is useful, nothing in it is so ground breaking it deserves that level of arrogance

[toothness]

Indeed, as well as the line that says 'I will educate you'... While this post is useful, nothing in it is so ground breaking it deserves that level of arrogance

 

Whats the intent here? This reply was not helpful in anyway.

[Schwarzwald]

You can do all those things as any spec.

 

Immortal doesn't fit a role for PvP. It's better to be Vengeance.

 

But you don't do those things as well as immortal. Deep Vengeance is a joke right now for PvP, I hope you are not serious.

[daays]

But you don't do those things as well as immortal. Deep Vengeance is a joke right now for PvP, I hope you are not serious.

 

Explain how deep Vengeance is a joke right now?

 

You have high survivability.

Good sustained damage.

And the instant someone hits 20% HP they are dead.

 

Immortal is a joke. You do no damage. You're a sponge. You can be a better sponge anyways as Vengeance while actually having damage.

Edited January 23, 2012 by daays

[Four_Leaf_Clover]

Why did you list the 20% finisher (I assume that's what you mean) as a reason for vengeance being better? Everyone has it.

 

Immortal has better CC, that's for sure. Can't count the number of times I've saved a team-mate or destroyed the ball carrier with it. You CAN kill people in immortal just as well as you can in vengeance, but you have to use your CC.

 

I trust my CC and its ability to lock someone down killing someone over impale and the chance of a scream crit.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Four_Leaf_Clover

[Schwarzwald]

Explain how deep Vengeance is a joke right now?

 

You have high survivability.

Good sustained damage.

And the instant someone hits 20% HP they are dead.

 

Immortal is a joke. You do no damage. You're a sponge. You can be a better sponge anyways as Vengeance while actually having damage.

 

You have more survivability in Immortal, your stuns are a big part of that and having 2 instant cast stuns is huge. The DPS in Vengeance is the same as Immortal. The only time Vengeance DPS tops Immortals is when you are just standing there beating on people who are standing still, which never happens (unless you are immortal!). Otherwise, Immortal offers the same burst potential in PvP for a much greater utility in PvP.

[Schwarzwald]

I'd disagree. Personally I don't think the full 31 points in Immortal is worth it. If you are going to go for an 'objective' based build (which is essentially what the Immortal tree is for), then Unstoppable is Incredibly good and I'd easily value it over Crushing Blow.

 

Even ignoring the Huttball utility of Unstoppable, if you use force charge and force push on cooldown, it basically makes you immune to cc for roughly 30% of the battle, as well as reducing your damage taken by 20% for that time period.

 

 

The problem with relying on the force push means that you are always relying on ideal positioning for a push that won't take you out of range of healers.

[daays]

You have more survivability in Immortal, your stuns are a big part of that and having 2 instant cast stuns is huge. The DPS in Vengeance is the same as Immortal. The only time Vengeance DPS tops Immortals is when you are just standing there beating on people who are standing still, which never happens (unless you are immortal!). Otherwise, Immortal offers the same burst potential in PvP for a much greater utility in PvP.

 

Rofl

 

More damage. OK. Keep thinking that.

 

Once again explain how DPS is higher in immortal.

 

Explain how survivability is higher in immortal.

 

Your spec is fine if you wanna not bother with respecing if you tank for PvE. Then again, you shouldn't really be tanking for PvE as PT's are just better than every tank atm.

 

Why did you list the 20% finisher (I assume that's what you mean) as a reason for vengeance being better? Everyone has it.

 

 

Really? Since when do the other specs have 90%+ crit rate for execute. This is news.

Edited January 23, 2012 by daays

[dcjoker]

Have to agree with Daays here.

 

Immortal's benefits are the instant force choke and backhand. Also you generate decent rage in soresu.

 

Vengeance benefits are that you can actually kill stuff (especially when it matters - vicious throw) and unstoppable.

 

Immortal's negatives are you tickle ppl for dps.

 

Vengeance negatives are that (at least for me) i'm usually not in soresu so i'm usually not guarding someone unless i'm in huttball and then i stance dance.

 

I would play immortal more if I had a group to play with but 99.9% of the time I'm solo queueing and vengeance is way more bearable queue after queue after queue (if for nothing else than ****** animations - impale/shatter).

 

I know pimp hand animation is cool too but you only get to do that once a minute. You get to shatter/impale all the time.

[Four_Leaf_Clover]

You loose DPS when people get away from you because you have no real CC to speak of. Simple as that. Happens all the time as Vengeance.

 

I run with immortal personally as I run with people on vent and the CC, snare and lower cool down on the AOE taunt helps the team more. I think I do enough damage to get by.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Four_Leaf_Clover

[dcjoker]

You loose DPS when people get away from you because you have no real CC to speak of. Simple as that. Happens all the time as Vengeance.

 

How does that happen with unstoppable and free chilling screams? Are you keyboard turning?

[Four_Leaf_Clover]

How does that happen with unstoppable and free chilling screams? Are you keyboard turning?

 

Because they can just wait 4 seconds to CC you and bugger off (unles they're really, really bad). If they are assassins its very possible they'll just speed away and break your snare in the process, PTs can break it every 30s and get a speed-boost, mercs can punt and snare you, etc, etc, etc. An equally good healer can heal themselves with impunity.

 

If they are locked down with CC they ain't gonna be doing any of those things. Vengeance relies on people standing there and being too bad to defend themselves. Immortal lets you take control.

[dcjoker]

Because they can just wait 4 seconds to CC you and bugger off (unles they're really, really bad). If they are assassins its very possible they'll just speed away and break your snare in the process, PTs can break it every 30s and get a speed-boost, mercs can punt and snare you, etc, etc, etc. An equally good healer can heal themselves with impunity.

 

If they are locked down with CC they ain't gonna be doing any of those things. Vengeance relies on people standing there and being too bad to defend themselves. Immortal lets you take control.

 

How is making them give me 4 seconds to **** on their face a bad thing? Or they can choose to waste ccs on me beforehand.

 

No spec we have effectively deals with healers atm. Immortal can stop them yes but can't put out the damage. Vengeance can put out ok damage but not stop their healing. Rage is boring but same problem as vengeance.

 

TBH I think they need to lower the cooldown on crushing blow and make the bleeds from vengeance scale better and remove the SA requirement from shatter. Other than that all three specs can use survivability buffs in PVP. Other classes can heal themselves or hit a button that guarantees they not die for x seconds or they vanish. The only base ability Juggernauts get for survivability is saberward and it basically does nothing against most classes.

 

Interrupts in this game are a joke too btw because they only interrupt THAT SPELL for 4 seconds. And with ability delay no one can get it off in time.

[dcjoker]

BTW i'm not saying that vengeance does amazing damage it does bearable damage (just barely). On the other hand Immortal does unbearable damage (makes me really sad) but has 2 awesome instant 4 second stuns.

[Samurro]

 

Explain how survivability is higher in immortal.

 

Your spec is fine if you wanna not bother with respecing if you tank for PvE. Then again, you shouldn't really be tanking for PvE as PT's are just better than every tank atm.

 

 

Nonsense! Why should anybody look for another tank just because he might be slightly stronger?! Jugger can do the job without problems...

 

EDIT:

@dcjoker

Do you run around in tank gear as Vengeance? Do you use offensive gear as Immortal?

Vicious Throw is no argument for putting out more damage as Vengeance, because you can only use it after your targethas 30,20% hp left (not sure atm). And mine Vicious Throw did crit yesterday as a Immortal for over 3k, which is great!

Edited January 23, 2012 by Samurro

[dcjoker]

Nonsense! Why should anybody look for another tank just because he might be slightly stronger?! Jugger can do the job without problems...

 

EDIT:

@dcjoker

Do you run around in tank gear as Vengeance? Do you use offensive gear as Immortal?

Vicious Throw is no argument for putting out more damage as Vengeance, because you can only use it after your targethas 30,20% hp left (not sure atm). And mine Vicious Throw did crit yesterday as a Immortal for over 3k, which is great!

 

I have nearly full champion dps gear (missing two pieces) and about half the tanking gear from dupes. In pvp I run with full DPS champion gear and a shield offhand right now (I don't have the dps focus yet). The only items I have that aren't dps champion is that and my orange pants (haven't gotten champ dps pants yet - currently rocking sith archon greaves) and my matrix cube m7-g0 relic.

 

I switch back and forth between a full immortal and full vengeance build.

Basically when I get tired of losing in warzones I switch back to immortal and when I get tired of not being able to kill anything I switch back to vengeance haha.

 

Immortal is definitely the "objective" build and it feels more versatile. However, Crushing Blow being your only hard hitting ability and it being on a 15 second cooldown kind of sucks.

 

As vengeance I can go on killing sprees in warzones popping pvp adrenals and my relic I've critted with vicious throw for over 4300. I've seen my shatter (yes initial damage) crit for over 2500, I've seen impale crit for over 3800. Force scream I've seen it crit for over 3300.

 

I've seen those crits happen back to back multiple times and really is an awesome feeling. But in warzones killing really do you no good against geared and coorindated ops. I play on swiftsure server and I seem to face nothing but premades.

 

Typically as vengeance I'll get anywhere between 6-9 medals and end up usually #2 on damage (mind you 99% of my damage is single target and #1s are usually aoe spammers).

 

That said, against any kind of good coordinated team my vengeance build will hit a brick wall. Outside of adrenal + relic (where I still sometimes get to kill a healer) I am almost completely useless but then again if I were immortal in those games we still would have lost but I would have felt much more useful (I guess that counts for something).

 

Basically the only counter to playing against a good group is to be in one yourself and I haven't found one yet.

 

Also eventually I think I'll try and pull certain mods out of certain extra pieces to put into the tanking champion gear (which I have the 4 set for). As immortal having the extra second on choke is so money. That and as immortal you should have your guard up 24/7 anyway.

Edited January 23, 2012 by dcjoker

[Samurro]

I am playing full Immortal with DPS Gear right now (not full set but mixed) and I don't have problems to kill other people. Ofc its not easy to kill a healer or a tank, but that shouldn't be your priortiy anyway.

 

Mostly I got the most damage in random Warzones from my team with at least 9 medals. I always pop Relic/Adrenal before I Ravage someone, makeing him lose big chunks of health.

 

Maybe its gear difference, I am Battlemaster with the Lightsaber...dunno.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Samurro

[Khabarach]

The problem with relying on the force push means that you are always relying on ideal positioning for a push that won't take you out of range of healers.

Hence why you try to time it with Intercede to get you back in range immediately.

No spec we have effectively deals with healers atm. Immortal can stop them yes but can't put out the damage. Vengeance can put out ok damage but not stop their healing. Rage is boring but same problem as vengeance.

I'd argue that in group play, stopping them is easily good enough. For example in a 4v4 situation where both sides have a healer, if you can focus and lock down their healer on your own, then you've basically won. You probably wont kill them solo, but between stuns etc. you can usually do enough damage that any healing they will do will need to be on themselves. There aren't a whole lot of other classes that can do that.

[daays]

You loose DPS when people get away from you because you have no real CC to speak of. Simple as that. Happens all the time as Vengeance.

 

I run with immortal personally as I run with people on vent and the CC, snare and lower cool down on the AOE taunt helps the team more. I think I do enough damage to get by.

 

If people are getting away from you as Vengeance then you're just a bad player.

 

Most people knock back into your immunity from unstoppable. If not then you simply force throw someone once you jump in and charge back.

 

They can't run because you just chilling scream them.

 

*** do you do as immortal? Charge, knock back, force throw, charge, knockback, congrats. You're useless.

 

Immortal is so easy to kite and push around the map it's a joke.

 

I like how both of you think having an extra stun on a 1min cooldown makes you just the king of lockdown and not one person will ever even move.

 

Bads will be bad. Immortal is fine if you don't wanna bother with dual spec, but it's an awful spec for PvP.

Edited January 23, 2012 by daays

[Shendaar]

Players that aren't stupid will wait for Unstoppable to wear off once they figure out that you are Vengeance spec'd. Sure getting knocked back after a charge is a problem when Immortal spec'd, but unlike Vengeance, you actually have two stuns to work with. Stuns make **** die, a mediocre melee DPS that doesn't get knocked back against **** players does not.

[daays]

Players that aren't stupid will wait for Unstoppable to wear off once they figure out that you are Vengeance spec'd. Sure getting knocked back after a charge is a problem when Immortal spec'd, but unlike Vengeance, you actually have two stuns to work with. Stuns make **** die, a mediocre melee DPS that doesn't get knocked back against **** players does not.

 

Mediocre DPS lol. Your damage is fine and you're the best assist DPS class in the game because players only need to drop to 20% before you kill them every time with execute.

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=dz8595&s=5

 

That's a typical game that isn't just a complete stomp on either side. That's all single target damage.

 

And what you gonna do when your stuns are on cool down as Immortal? Sit there and hit them for 2.5k every 15 seconds?

 

Please. Immortal is an awful PvP spec. Don't kid yourself.

 

Rage is better. But rage is a gimmick 1 trick pony spec that's good at beating up on bad/under geared players. It was the best PvP spec before the all 50 bracket. Now it's 2nd compared to Vengeance.

[Shendaar]

And what you gonna do when your stuns are on cool down as Immortal? Sit there and hit them for 2.5k every 15 seconds?

 

Guard, Taunt, AoE taunt or you know, just use the rest of my abilities. Between Choke, Backhand, Force Push, Charge and my Interrupt, there is plenty of disruption to go around.

 

I agree that Rage is a gimmick and that Vengeance is a better tree, but don't kid yourself either, there are much better DPS than you in the game and everytime you manage to kill someone, remember that it may be because someone else stunned that healer for you.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Shendaar