Ok. I have a problem with this as I hear it a lot. You are now comparing WoW from 10 years ago with SWTOR from now. When WoW was realised they were well ahead of the curve and the standards and expectations of the consumer was much lower. Any game releasing now can't use WoW on release as a benchmark as its not competing with WoW from 10 years ago, it's competing with WoW of now. This means that any new game release now is in the awkward position of trying to match and possibly even improve on a WoW game with 10 years of improvement and material. SWTOR was lucky as it had the franchise, hence they could mechanically release an almost identical game that would still appeal because of the setting. So, the mechanics were solid (same as wow basically), the setting rocked (everyone loves Star Wars). However, it lacked the contents. This is the issue the game is facing, all the other factors are in place and its here where the problem lies. You can say 'give it a chance', but people did. That chance was called 1.2, which did deliver a little, but not up to expectations. Sadly though, people won't be as patient as they were with WoW as a) there's other games in town b) the benchmarks for comparison make SWTOR look lacking. Why should consumers remain patient when there's other games out there they can play? Essentially, SWTOR is competing with WoW Cat/MoP not vanilla and those games have sooooo much more to offer. An MMO will only work when it realises that it's not going to be judged on its merits as a new game, but on its merits in relation to the current market. Until then, they'll all fail.

It's a powerful talent and I spec far enough up in the Immortal tree just to get that (and Invincible before it), otherwise my talents are in the Vengeance tree. That is an incredibly effective PvP spec so you'd be surprised how often you'l come across (since 1.2 and with Enraged Defence and the Deafening Defence talent, you'll find tanks moving to a similar spec I believe as they lose little survivability)

I disagree, this is the build you want to use if you want to be Soresu PvP (using pull dps gear and either shield or focus depending on your needs): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rMGdzzZsMrMrhdzM.1 If you want an explanation why, please message me, othewise I'll not spend the time explaining as in my experience people rarely care

No offence, but I can't see how this is basically an inferior version of the spec I posted.

(This is for PvP by the way) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rMGdzzZsMrMrhdzM.1 Okay, so this isn't deep Vengeance, hell it even uses Soresu form, but it is predominently Vengeance and packs a surprising punch (as well as being defensivey very capable). It's a tank spec essentially that losses Concussive Blow but gets Impale (which is far better when one considers Savagery). Loses sweeping strikes yet still suffers no real rage issues in PvP (seriously, it doesn't). It loses Black Blood but gains what is in my opinion the far more superior Deafening Defence. Apart from that it's pretty much Vengeance, with a less damaging stance (but far more mitigation), no Shatter and no Rampage (which is poor for PvP)

Thanks for posting this, I really like the look of it. I may play around with swapping Savagery for Sonic Barrier, but other than that seems a really solid spec. It's a shame that Sweeping Fury is so far up the Immortal tree as it prevents effective stance dancing as Soresu will be gimped somewhat. Thanks for the ideas though!

Interesting, I especially like the bit where you say "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ".

It is, I'm pretty certain under International Law MMOs are banned from having faction changes... China and Russia vetoed action against EQ2 on the UN Security Council

'Why would you be suddenly become a Sith after doing things for the Empire?' Well: A) That's down to a subjective interpretation of their own character's actions and motivations and B) Darth Vadar blew up a sodding planet for the Empire and he betrayed them in the end, 'having a faction shift' In in response to 'you obviously haven't played the game' I would say to you 'you obviously haven't watched 'Star Wars'... Clearly this person ha played the game just as you clearly have watched Star Wars. Just get over yourself and stop being so condescending to people.

This is a really good point, didn't really consider this. Puts it in perspective.

From another 70+ Juggernaut, the above statement is crap it's all about your ego... end of

What do you think the D in D-pad stands for? You don't use keys to walk... you use a mouse... As for 'true gamer' I think you really ought to be more careful about passing judgement on others.

(Edit: I was an idiot and read this thread to be Nostromo) I tend to use the button above the D-pad as a CTRL and that'll double up the amount of finger keys you can use. As a Juggernaut though I do find it a serious pain as warriors in general have a lot of abilties. Also, I use the D-pad for my charges and throws (as it ducks for directions). Forward charge, back intercede, up sabre throw down vicious throw. Remember as well you can macro on it, that's a massive bonus considering the game doesn't allow you to code such.

Psst... I was being sarcastic On the whole, I frankly don't care. I llike wow, in fact I still do, I just really wanted a change of scenery. This is exactly what I've got, a game I enjoy playing with a great stiry and different setting that I hope will only get better and better as BW are given time to build on the theme.

The classes are totally different because Vicious Throw has a range of 10m and Execute is melee range... some people have no idea....

I agree, my Jugg is rocking Battlemaster gear and despite the purple not matching the red on black lightsabre, I've no issue with it. As for 'what does a Sith look like?' You seriously have to check out some of the whacky costumes poeple like Naga Sadow and Freedon Nadd wore. Hell I've seen images of the latter guy in what can only be described as spikey full plate armour! Your mate needs some perspective, I think looking at end game warrior armour and dismissing a game is a pretty huge overreaction.

This doesn't count as healing, however buffed and with Endure Pain I exceed 25k Health easily. This means that when specced, my unleash can heal over 2.5k (as it heals 10% health). I do of course have Frozen Shock Water myself, but I feel like I'm only getting 1 cheap medal as opposed to two, as the 2.5k is a piece of cake to get with only skill use.

You can't underestimate the difference gear makes. I levelled very quickly and while waiting for my guild to catch up I spent a lot of time PvPing with others in a similar situation. This meant that when the majority of people started hitting 50, we outclassed them quite considerably. Not saying out ability was necessarily better, but it was good enough that the gear difference was a large deciding factor.

If your mercenary friend is healing you, then yes you are doing something different. My Juggernaut is a hair of Battlemaster at the moment, most of the time I've been pvping with a full group (none healers) who're equally as progressed as me along the valor scale and are similarly equipped, this makes a huge difference as we're like a hot knife through butter (despite me being Immortal). That's with 3 friends, what about 1?, Well even with just one friend who happens to be a healer, you're going to feel like a god. You can keep them alive with guard/intercede/taunt and CC and they can keep you up with, well, healing. I suspect what you're feeling is the indestructabilty of a pocket healer... that said, Juggernauts rock regardless and you're going to have a ton of fun!

'Bunch of happy morons'... exelently put. I did the warrior ending and then straight after helped by friend with his Inquisitor ending. I have no complaint with the differences. Remember we got that ****** walk-out with the low-angle camera shot!

I actually thought the Darkside was more powerful, but that power came with a cost. Hence it was seductive, in the 'it'll never happen to me' sort of way. Also Darkside is isolationary and the Lightside triumphs due to its collective nature. Sith embrace individual power and the Jedi collectivism. This may be wrong, its just my take on it.

You're trolling, right?

Whinging Jedi's better deal with it, this ain't happening on my watch... (mainly because there's no way this will happen in the game's timeline, the dynamic will have to remain the same for the game to function as an MMO)

I'm sure most people would be happy...

I don't recall anything stating that Baras was a Sith Warrior.