Over 15 yrs of MMOs and still we have level-gated content?

[Tal-N]

I see the main criticism of TOR being that it does nothing new. While I can accept that a multi-million dollar is best done by playing it safe initially that doesn't mean things can't change post launch to have TOR step into new horizons for RPGs and MMORPGs.

 

I'm not sure any of you have experienced this in other MMOs but I feel that developers need to move away from closing access to content because they are locked into this idea of levels. I think it is time to explore something which other MMOs have touched upon - scaled content and enemies.

 

The idea is simple. Your character progresses in levels themselves. Stats go up, new skills unlock but you never out-level any of the enemies or content. What is intended to be a tough boss is always a tough boss. The way this worked in other MMOs was done through damage scaling, hit are registered as percentages of damage rather than raw numbers and same applied to when the NPCs hit you. This way a level 10 hit a mob for 10% damage and a level 50 does the exact same attack and hits for the exact same amount.

 

While this is obviously a crude example due to the fact that additional skills equals higher over all DPS and equipment becomes a factor too the issue is that with the right tweaking an RPG essentially becomes level-less. All content is up for grabs all the time and it is always challenging and worthwhile.

 

Imagine TOR where the second you step into your starship any planet is viable for adventuring on because content is scaled. You could hop off to Belsavis at level 10 and be able to complete the content and then swing back around to Coruscant and find it is all good fun. No more linear progression except for the class storyline.

 

It would be a bold move and would require a complete reworking of how missions reward XP and gear would need to be revamped entirely. But a level-less RPG becomes more open ended and content is never out-leveled.

 

With scaled mobs and missions, there wouldn't even be need for a level cap. Imagine that! Level 230 Jedi Sentinal LFT!

Edited January 20, 2012 by Tal-N

[SamuraBob_Fl]

That's an interesting idea, but it seems to me that it would almost destroy character progression.

 

If a mob will always hit me for 5% of my health, what's the point of getting more endurance?

 

If I will always hit a mob for 5% of its healthm what's the point of upgrading my weapons?

[Lerdoc]

Themepark MMO. Thats how they roll. Thats how they will roll.

Tired of this? Try sandbox. Only way to get something innovative as only sandboxes make innovative things.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Lerdoc

[fenrishero]

The problem is that only game series that lets work in a nongated way is The Elder Scrolls, and that only works because the entire game scales with you. I'd love to see that type of thing in an mmo, but I wouldn't have a clue on how you go about it without devaluing players sunk time.

[Nmaharg]

GW2 is doing this.

[knightblaster]

That's an interesting idea, but it seems to me that it would almost destroy character progression.

 

If a mob will always hit me for 5% of my health, what's the point of getting more endurance?

 

If I will always hit a mob for 5% of its healthm what's the point of upgrading my weapons?

 

And this is in fact what made many people complain about TES: Oblivion when it was released, and which inspired mods to be created quickly for that game which undid this design.

[Lerdoc]

The problem is that only game series that lets work in a nongated way is The Elder Scrolls, and that only works because the entire game scales with you. I'd love to see that type of thing in an mmo, but I wouldn't have a clue on how you go about it without devaluing players sunk time.

 

Try Mortal Online. Content surely does not level up with you, but progressing your character makes you go to more dangerous areas. No levels there, just skills and attributes over which you have complete freedom to spend them.

[Pyrolight]

That sounds insanely annoying in a MMO. Edited January 20, 2012 by Pyrolight

[fadingdimension]

My issue again, with posts like this, is that Bioware never hid the fact that the game has levels, and level gated content. They said over and over again they are not trying to break the mold. Then you have people who hyped this game in their own mind to be some insanely ground breaking thing.

 

If you thought the game would be anything more than Bioware said it would be, that's your fault.

[imtrick]

That's an interesting idea, but it seems to me that it would almost destroy character progression.

 

If a mob will always hit me for 5% of my health, what's the point of getting more endurance?

 

If I will always hit a mob for 5% of its healthm what's the point of upgrading my weapons?

 

Hell, at that point, where's the incentive to even go anywhere?

 

Mob scaling is generally a huge step backwards, IMHO. There's a certain feeling of heroism in beating a mob you couldn't have come within a mile of 10 levels ago. Beating some thing any random noob could knock over with a broken stick? Not quite so awe-inspiring.

Edited January 20, 2012 by imtrick

[daeseer]

That breaks the essential Skinner-box style reward system that's so effective for MMOs.

 

You effectively wouldn't feel more powerful as you progress.

 

So, in your alternative, I'd head back to Korriban at level 50 to face those Klorslugs I vanquished at level 1, but now I'm Darth Dudeman with the full power of the Dark Side behind me. And they give me about the same amount of trouble as they did when I was wearing overalls and had a training saber.

[LogicalPremise]

GW2 is doing this.

 

Well, that right there is enough to make sure GW2 gets $0 of my cash. I had enough of that sort of garbage in Oblivion to last me a lifetime.

[Urko]

GW2 is doing this.

 

Ive had enough of pixies and elves , thats why i like STWOR.

[knightblaster]

That breaks the essential Skinner-box style reward system that's so effective for MMOs.

 

You effectively wouldn't feel more powerful as you progress.

 

So, in your alternative, I'd head back to Korriban at level 50 to face those Klorslugs I vanquished at level 1, but now I'm Darth Dudeman with the full power of the Dark Side behind me. And they give me about the same amount of trouble as they did when I was wearing overalls and had a training saber.

 

Exactly. This is how Oblivion worked. In effect, what it does is enhance your freedom to explore as you want, but it does this at the very high cost of very much downplaying your sense of increasing power and progression. It was a pretty unpopular feature in Oblivion to say the least.

[Tal-N]

That's an interesting idea, but it seems to me that it would almost destroy character progression.

 

If a mob will always hit me for 5% of my health, what's the point of getting more endurance?

 

If I will always hit a mob for 5% of its healthm what's the point of upgrading my weapons?

 

Armor and weapons would be designed to define specific roles rather than cause your character to advance in power and to give you an advantage over certain enemies as they have weaknesses and resistances to certain damage types.

 

For example, lets presume that your basic character is a even split between DPS, Healing and Tanking associated stats. Equipment would shift the balance how you want. The idea then is that loot becomes desirable because it moves you closer towards you're own ideal balance rather than making you more powerful. A rise of 1% additional DPS may reduce 1% of damage resistance or healing ability.

 

Damage types return to being a core mechanic as they have been largely forgotten in modern MMORPGs. So players will want to hunt down weapons that have both the damage types they want as well as the stat modifiers needed for their ideal balance.

 

Fighting droids with energy shields, for example, would make energy weapons less effective, leading to a tougher fight. Switching to slugthrowers or vibroblade weapons then makes it possible to fight them without that disadvantage. Success verses certain tough enemies will be largely based upon keeping up with their changing resistances which force you to know what they are weak to at any given time and switch weapons.

[lycrates]

GW2 is doing this.

 

Yeap. And thats why GW2 is a PvP game. One you max level there is no PvE to do in GW2. I think the concept of PvE the progression escapes some people. In PvE you NEED some sort of progression, or there is no point in doing it.

 

Edit: Character progression does not HAVE to be done with levels. We could have an MMO that you become more powerful by frequently using your skills on harder and harder enemies. This way gear grind would potentially not be necessary, you would raid in order for the chance to fight harder enemies and increase the power of your skills. That is just one example of how MMOs could change character progression. The point is that you NEED some type of character progression to do PvE, otherwise its pointless.

Edited January 20, 2012 by lycrates

[IheartGreenGirls]

Level-scaled content is awful. REALLY awful. And there's no incentive to get beyond level 1. I hate this idea with a passion.

[Tandrius]

Why not take it a step further? Honestly I think one of the huge problems mmo's face is genre mixing. They want to be single player, raid/heroic pve group content, and pvp. Consequently you have a game where people feel they have to play 50, 80, w/e lvls before they can play the game (pvp, raids, w/e) they want. This is what makes the mmo grind.

 

And it's not necessary.

 

If you like to pvp, think how great the game would be if it was all about the pvp. Eliminate 90% of the pve, keeping dailies which encourage world pvp, several well developed wz's, rated arena matches and great balance.

 

Like pve? Think how great it would be to begin group raiding and heroics from character creation. Instead of designing hours of single player content that 90% of the population will hate and consider a grind (obviously swtor tries to be the exception here, but only mildly succeeds), imagine how many fun dungeons and raids there would be if that time was spent there instead.

 

tl;dr? There's no reason a game can't specialize into just doing pvp or pve. It would provide more content and, in my opinion, an overall better game.

 

Just my two cents.

[Tal-N]

So, in your alternative, I'd head back to Korriban at level 50 to face those Klorslugs I vanquished at level 1, but now I'm Darth Dudeman with the full power of the Dark Side behind me. And they give me about the same amount of trouble as they did when I was wearing overalls and had a training saber.

 

A level-less system would function by allowing you more options to overcome your enemies and tailor your fighting style to focus on their weaknesses.

 

Progression of a kind of unavoidable, but a level-less system removes the rigid fact that you're unable to defeat enemies that are 10 levels above you. Eldar Scrolls: Oblivion had dungeons scale their mobs to suit the level of the player and loot did the same, while some people didn't like it that they were always up against a challenge unless they came properly prepared the fact is that there was always content to be enjoyed over and over.

 

The key to pwning NPCs is to gear yourself correctly and use the right tactics. Simply because of the limited resources of someone who has just started a new character your level 50 Sith Lord will have a distinct advantage. But then you could give all of your gear to that level 5 Sith Apprentice and he'd have an equally easy time with the Kor Slugs.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Tal-N

[kuldina]

GW2 is doing this.

 

Actually they aren't

[Tal-N]

The point is that you NEED some type of character progression to do PvE, otherwise its pointless.

 

There are many, many genres of games where there is no progression other than seeing more content.

 

Levels are a lazy way to give a sense of achievement, a number increases and stats get higher. If you are X number of levels higher than enemy Y then you pwn them.

 

Personally I have a greater sense of achievement capturing the flag in a multi-player first person shooter than gaining a level in an RPG and I'm sure many players here can think of similar examples of their own.

 

If the content is fun for the simple fact that it is enjoyable to take part in it then progression isn't needed. In fact, the only thing which would make someone tire of a game is that there isn't enough fresh and new content to enjoy.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Tal-N

[Tal-N]

My issue again, with posts like this, is that Bioware never hid the fact that the game has levels, and level gated content.

 

If you thought the game would be anything more than Bioware said it would be, that's your fault.

 

I have no problem with the game. I knew from 3 years ago it would be level based. What I'm doing is airing an idea that game developers have used before but seem to have forgotten in the modern RPG.

 

Bioware does read the forum and they clearly don't like the idea that people see TOR as anything but an innovation. Maybe this idea hasn't occurred to them, maybe it has. Ultimately it doesn't hurt to talk about it and see how popular the concept is.

[Shortwave]

There are many, many genres of games where there is no progression other than seeing more content.

 

Levels are a lazy way to give a sense of achievement, a number increases and stats get higher. If you are X number of levels higher than enemy Y then you pwn them.

 

Personally I have a greater sense of achievement capturing the flag in a multi-player first person shooter than gaining a level in an RPG and I'm sure many players here can think of similar examples of their own.

 

If the content is fun for the simple fact that it is enjoyable to take part in it then progression isn't needed. In fact, the only thing which would make someone tire of a game is that there isn't enough fresh and new content to enjoy.

 

If I'm not mistaken the upcoming mmorpg, The Secret World, is doing away with levels somehow. And GWII will allow you to have your full set of abilities in Warzones or whatever they're calling them over there. It'll be interesting to see how future MMOs concerned with breaking this stale paradigm of which this game is a part pan out.

[SnoggyMack]

Levels are a lazy way to give a sense of achievement,

 

You say poTAYtoe, Gary Gygax said poTAHtoe. There are some games that absolutely work well with levels as achievement.

 

This game so far is one of them.

[Orientz]

Hey OP, check this out http://www.thesecretworld.com/

 

I'm skeptical, but still interested to see how it turns out.