Catahoula Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Let me just start by saying that I really, really wanted to like this game. For once, I felt a game developer realized that I didn't want leveling to be a grind, but an exciting adventure. Alas, this is not that game developer. I feel as though all the class stories are geared toward the generation that grew up with the Star Wars prequels and suffered from George Lucas's attention-deficit writing--as opposed to those who grew up with the original trilogy and it's sharply-focused plot lines. I am very shocked to see this coming from the same developer of KOTOR. The irony is, I only played KOTOR while waiting for this game to come out, because people on this forum were raving about it. KOTOR had all the story mechanics of a novel/movie. Alas, these basic mechanics are missing from every class story I have tried thus far in SWTOR. Yes, that includes the Imperial Agent. While the agent is more interesting overall, it still suffers from goals/villains that change with each chapter--as does every other class in this game. Bottom line, instead of getting story, we got voiceovers. Am I the only one who feels this way? And yes, you prequel-lovers can refrain from answering and enjoy your game. I'm glad you enjoy it! It's just not my cup of tea. Alas, it was a very expensive cup of tea to buy at $60. In fact, I think they sold me coffee instead of the advertised tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshadow Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Let me go o n record as stating that I grew up on the originals, and I was old enough to see SW in the theatre, and remember it, so with that.... I feel as though all the class stories are geared toward the generation that grew up with the Star Wars prequels and suffered from George Lucas's attention-deficit writing--as opposed to those who grew up with the original trilogy and it's sharply-focused plot lines. Let's see: Star Wars: "Hold your fire" wow, the movie could have been over 10 minutes in and we'd never have to worry about any of it. Why would we even bother with that scene? Vader didn't know where Obiwan was, he tracked Jedi to the ends of the universe, and he couldn't find one guy alone in the desert a thousand miles from anywhere? Obiwan could feel the people of Alderaan die a million lightyears away, but couldn't sense a hundred Jawa's being killed down the street? Han shot first - nuff said.... They put a forcefield around the exhaust port, but they couldn't fit a retractable blast door around it? Luke Skywalker used to strangle cats (well he used to shoot rats, but hey, is that really any different?) The button to turn of the tractor beam was in the middle of nowhere, you know, instead of in the control room. A station the size of the Death Star only had like what? 10 Tie Fighters? They should have wiped the floor with the Rebels, there were no Cap Ships at the battle of Yavin. I was actually going to reference weaknesses in all 3, but Star Wars itself took up a lot of space... I will say Empire was the best, but like to mention that Echo base had a shield generator so strong it could deflect an orbital bombardment from a dozen Star Destroyers? Including the Executor? And Jedi... one word... Ewoks While the agent is more interesting overall, it still suffers from goals/villains that change with each chapter--as does every other class in this game. Goals change, we complete one, we move on to the next. Nobody wants to be a fry cook, or a greeter at Walmart for 45 years. Bad guys come and go, look at Hitler, he was probably THE ABSOLUTE WORST human being ever to walk the face of this planet, yet in comparison, his time here was (thankfully) relatively short. In power for a mere 11 years, and at war for only half of that. That is on the GRAND scale, most of our lives revolve around a much smaller scale, Imperial Agents for instance... I don't remember James Bond spending 40 years chasing the same guy, in MOST cases i t was one and done. That's just the nature of things, personally, I would rather my story evolve as we mature, not just be me chasing the same mouse for eternity like the sun and moon. Bottom line, instead of getting story, we got voiceovers. There is plenty of story, both in the class quests and in the side quests if you take the time to sit and read them. Now if you are playing one character, that should be more than enough to keep casual players busy if they sit and take the time to read it. If you play more than one char, it might get a little repetitive when you start doing the side quests a second or 3rd time, I tend to skip the convo's on those a bit, but the class story still keeps me going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyriaFrost Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It's just another case of rose-tinted glasses making the original movies seem like some epic, fantastically-written saga, when there were TONS of plot-holes (which have been discussed to death over the intervening decades), silly things, and random deus ex machina thrown into it. And OP, you do realize just how much of a pretentious windbag you come across as with the whole "the generation that grew up on the prequels, as opposed to us adults who grew up with the original movies" thing, right? I mean seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smartalectwo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It's an inevitable aspect of a story that centres on one character. Slight focus shift. Better to think of each 'act' as its own self-contained story. More like the Indiana Jones movies than the Star Wars movies (so it's just as well that there's only 3 acts, really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Miranda_ Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I like the main story, but the subquests feels like distractions. So I'm a bounty hunter. I have to locate and capture some guy before my opponents do. Timing is very important. Great, what's the plan? Oh I know, I'll spend hours retrieving items and killing dozens of gangsters, droids or monsters for some random guy so I can "level up" enough to complete my story quests? That will win me the great hunt for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshadow Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I like the main story, but the subquests feels like distractions. So I'm a bounty hunter. I have to locate and capture some guy before my opponents do. Timing is very important. Great, what's the plan? Oh I know, I'll spend hours retrieving items and killing dozens of gangsters, droids or monsters for some random guy so I can "level up" enough to complete my story quests? That will win me the great hunt for sure! True enough, BUT hell, it took 3 years to rescue Han Solo, and they did a lot of side quests in between while Luke levelled up his Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilari Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Here's a real spoiler for you: A game seeking to have as wide of an audience as possible cannot possibly hope to have a grand, intricate story with a ton of depth et cetera. As a lover of literature and student of English (seeking teaching credentials) I understand the lack of really GREAT story. It's very cut-and-dry, cliche, and played. We've seen these stories before and many of the stories lack the minor details which can help a user/reader to connect. But understand it's difficult to write such stories for millions of potential players as well as have them translate well into other languages. They have to be basic or tried. I agree the stories are dry, but in general Star Wars is a dry material. Even the original triliogy was rather poorly executed from a pure dialogue/story perspective. Lucas is no Nabakov... Edited January 19, 2012 by stilari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathankak Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The movie had a plot line because it was...wait for it...a movie. It has to have a defined story to tell, it had 16 hours to do it in. And then it was complete. This MMO is like combining all the movies, the books, the games, and comics into one giant world. 30 hours in with my Sith Warrior and I'm still hunting for a mysterious Jedi padawan. I've also helped the empire regain control of Tattoine, ruined a rebel Sith Lord, decimated the Sand People, joined a mysterious cult, and wasted rebel scum across multiple worlds. I grew up with the movies, my children are enjoying them now. I remember the name of NPCs, the conversations with the players in this story, and can recall the steps that got my hear MUCH more vividly than any other MMO or story I can think of. And I've tried them all. It's not wrong to be disappointed with a game, nothing is right for everyone. But I can't disagree enough with your points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meira_Arirai Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The original trilogy pretty much happened because George Lucas failed to obtain the rights to Flash Gordon and he wanted to make something comparable. It borrowed heavily from Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress", which, you'll notice, is not one of the master's most noteworthy pictures for deep, thinky storytelling. It's sci-fi pulp in space with some mythic undertones borrowed from Joseph Campbell, not the Epic of Gilgamesh or anything. It is fun and awesome and resonant (otherwise I wouldn't be here) but let's not pretend the original trilogy's writing was especially complex or highbrow. I'm finding that people who don't enjoy one class's story often prefer another, so maybe the answer is to try rolling another character. The other thing is that while this is an MMO with more heavily story-focused components, it's still an MMO. If you can't stand MMOs, you probably won't be impressed enough with the story (or much of any story that the devs could have devised) to stick around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gekko_s Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I've actually found the story lines engaging and fun when I compare them to other games like World of Warcraft, Skyrim and Dragon Age. Edited January 19, 2012 by gekko_s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennethHoover Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The simple reality is Lucas was a lousy writer with no appreciation or interest in continuity or logic. Which is why we have the movies we have, with all their logistical inconsistencies. Lucas viewed SF as background furniture for his story. He has no real love and appreciation for the history and canon of classic SF. It’s just a cartoon backdrop to him. Okay, I give him credit for the movie THX 1138. But that was when he was young and hungry and his creativity was at an all time high. Star Wars? At the core it’s about a mass murderer (Darth Vader) who apologizes in the last reel and that makes everything all right and magically transforms him into a sympathetic character who finds final redemption and forgiveness. Think about that a moment. Try getting that story published in Analog or Asimov’s or any top flight SF magazine today. Try getting that story published in the bad old days of SF pulp. Even worse, it’s a perverse parody (if not a downright misunderstanding) of what Joseph Campbell’s work in comparative mythology was all about. A work Lucas admits he was riffing off of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isharel Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 TL;DR I'll say this. I'm bloody offended. I had enough of you people telling us "kids" in our twenties we don't know jack **** about Star Wars because we weren't born in the bloody '70's. You know what? Both KotOR games combined had a thousand folds more intricate and in-depth story then the movies put together. So how about them apples? Before you diss the younger generations using something that is sub-par at best, look at what we have instead. I love the original trilogy, don't get me wrong but GOD can the fans be irritating as hell sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arodin Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I've completed one class story so far: Imperial Agent. I'm sure the OP hasn't completed more than one class story, if even that. I don't think anyone can make a blanket statement about all of the game's story yet since nobody has completed all eight classes. IMO, the story that I've played so far is pretty good. No, not as deep and engaging as KOTOR, but that is offset by the fact that I have 8 stories to play through, and most importantly there will more story added for in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuadDamage Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'm by no means a Star Wars fan, I can't even name any of the characters side of Luke and Vader, but I did grow up with them and do think they're quality movies. That aside, I do think this games story is lackluster for certain classes, such as the Consular. The Jedi Knight, Inquisitor, Marauder, Imperial Agent, and Trooper have overall good stories, but NOTHING tops the first 2 I listed. It seems like they just took a bunch of random scraps of paper with ideas on them, crumbled them up, and threw them against the wall for the other classes, and some worked, others fell through a REALLY big crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swatter Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This game is extremely similar to KOTOR. Yes, the KOTOR story is better overall than any particular story, but thats hardly a knock on SWTOR. What is it about the stories you don't like? You don't like any sort of grind? I'm with you, but the grind is not bad here. You just aren't specific enough in your post to make me understand exactly what your complaint is. Let me just start by saying that I really, really wanted to like this game. For once, I felt a game developer realized that I didn't want leveling to be a grind, but an exciting adventure. Alas, this is not that game developer. I feel as though all the class stories are geared toward the generation that grew up with the Star Wars prequels and suffered from George Lucas's attention-deficit writing--as opposed to those who grew up with the original trilogy and it's sharply-focused plot lines. I am very shocked to see this coming from the same developer of KOTOR. The irony is, I only played KOTOR while waiting for this game to come out, because people on this forum were raving about it. KOTOR had all the story mechanics of a novel/movie. Alas, these basic mechanics are missing from every class story I have tried thus far in SWTOR. Yes, that includes the Imperial Agent. While the agent is more interesting overall, it still suffers from goals/villains that change with each chapter--as does every other class in this game. Bottom line, instead of getting story, we got voiceovers. Am I the only one who feels this way? And yes, you prequel-lovers can refrain from answering and enjoy your game. I'm glad you enjoy it! It's just not my cup of tea. Alas, it was a very expensive cup of tea to buy at $60. In fact, I think they sold me coffee instead of the advertised tea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozybidaj Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Aside from the missing romance options I'm quite happy with the way the stories (in particular the class stories) are designed. Definitely my favorite part of the game, which is good since that is about all there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armah Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 True enough, BUT hell, it took 3 years to rescue Han Solo, and they did a lot of side quests in between while Luke levelled up his Guardian. Winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catahoula Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) All right. Let me spell it out for all of you what is off about the class stories. 1) The goals of each class story change with every chapter. I never know what my character's true story goal/motivation is, because it is always shifting. Note: This does not happen in novels or books. It also doesn't happen in Bioware's hit RPGs (such as KOTOR). 2) The villains likewise change or rotate. Sometimes they just magically go away for a while, to suddenly reappear at random. Note: This does not happen in novels or books. It also doesn't happen in Bioware's hit RPGs (such as KOTOR). 3) Certain turning points present in every novel/movie are missing. Please reference Campbell, Vogler, or even Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat!" book. (See below for a breakdown of KOTOR to the Hero's Journey.) 4) There is no obvious theme. The theme is the essentially the lesson the protagonist has to learn to finally overcome the big obstacle in his way (the villain). Even KOTOR had a theme. It was redemption. 5) Because there is no theme, by necessity important plot points from #3 are missing and, even if they weren't, they'd be sorely lacking in any depth. The "Dark Night of the Soul" from the Hero's Journey, for example, not only deals with the protagonist suffering a defeat, but in him finally learning the theme. Before that point, the protagonist has been avoiding learning the theme at all costs. Now he is forced to learn it to overcome the villain in the final fight. --- I wouldn't normally bother dissecting a video game's story like this, if it weren't for Bioware promising us good stories within our PvE. And Bioware is well aware of how to craft a good story. Quite frankly, I am surprised that the very company that produced KOTOR produced these attention-deficit string of class quests. A string of quests does not equal a story. As a side note, I'm not saying the original trilogy was the best story ever told. The last one in the series proved that they ran out of ideas (teddy bears with spears, rehashing the death star, etc.). However, the first two had actual plots, despite the plot holes. The prequels simply did not. There's no getting around it. I'm sorry if you like the prequels, but they're not even remotely well-told stories. Much like the class stories in this game. And no, I didn't see the original trilogy in the theaters in the 70's. I am in my late 20s. I'm not even that hard-core of a Star Wars fan. At all. To prove my point, here is a breakdown of KOTOR 1 to the Hero's Journey, borrowing from Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat!" format here and there. If you can take your preferred class story and break it down into these points, then congratulations, Bioware bothered for your class's story. Ordinary World - Endar Spire crashes. Background info introduced. Taris. Theme Stated - Trask saves Revan's life. Redemption theme subtly introduced. Catalyst/Call to Adventure - Jedi Council on Dantooine asks Revan to train and look for the Star Maps. Debate/Refusal of the Call - Revan refuses (dialogue option), saying that he is just an ordinary guy. Act II begins - Revan sets out to find the first Star Map on Dantooine. B-Story - Often the "love" story. Romance blooms. Strongest is the Revan/Bastila pairing, due to Bastila's pivotal role in upcoming plot points. (Sorry, Carth fans! Blame Bioware! Not me!) Fun & Games - The crew of the Ebon Hawk find the other Star Maps, run into bounty hunters and Sith, and all-in-all have fun. Midpoint - Either a false victory or a false defeat. In KOTOR, a false defeat where the Leviathan catches the crew. Typically the midpoint starts a clock that ticks down. There is only so much time until the bad guys close in. Bad Guys Close In - Revan and friends tortured for information. Only so much time until Malak arrives. Pressure increased when Karath tells Carth Bastila's little secret. All is Lost - Darth Malak arrives. Revan's identity revealed. Bastila is captured. Dark Night of the Soul - Revan has lost everything. He must learn the theme (redemption), or reject the theme should the story go dark-sided, and cope with his identity. Act III Begins - A story and B story combine and reveal solution. Revan meets Bastila atop the Rakatan temple. If dark-sided, Bastila reveals the solution to stop Malak. If light-sided, Revan chooses to redeem Bastila as the solution and stop Malak on his own. Finale - Final fight. Revan wins. The end. Edited January 19, 2012 by Catahoula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicNoir Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I think when you said that you thought the game was aimed at the generation who grew up with the prequels, people assumed that you were from the generation who saw the original trilogy when it first came out. I'm in my mid-twenties and am a fairly huge Star Wars fan, which I will admit probably colours my impression of the game. That said, there are plenty of SW games I haven't enjoyed, so... I will say I'm enjoying the game a lot and feel the stories add something that is lacking in other MMOs. I'll also mention that I have yet to finish ANY class story, so I can't comment on the flow of the stories overall. Your issues with story may stem from the game's nature as an MMO. Unlike a pure RPG, an MMO has to continue after the final story is told. Not only that, it also has to fit with the addition of further story when the level cap is raised later in its lifecycle. An RPG is comparable to the storytelling theories you've mentioned because it is, like most media, designed to be finite. Every time you play KOTOR, the story will hit particular points - crash of the Endar Spire, stealing of the Ebon Hawk, etc. The theories of storytelling are an ill fit for something that continues indefinitely, like an MMO, which is why MMOs have mostly avoided being story-centric until now. What Bioware are doing is still incredibly new and there are bound to be issues in getting the mix right at first. So far, I've found the stories to be enjoyable and interesting; very suited to the idea of a neverending, living and fighting day-to-day world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midasear Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat!" book. Someone complaining writing is bad because he can't figure out a way to cram it into Blake Snyder's one-size-fits-all story format. Almost beyond parody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnnyB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Not sure what the OP's complaint is exactly. By not enough story / just voice overs are you saying you want a story that is more plot heavy? The voice overs are part of the story so... I played through the smuggler storyline and I thought it was great. There's only like 2 main villains in the entire class story so maybe you should give it a try? I'll admit that the planet story lines do bump into the class story lines as you work trough them - but there's no way around it. It's a game first and a story second. KOTOR was the same way really, it's just that the main story and the planet stories were more closely aligned given that there was only one class story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChanMaradar Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 While the agent is more interesting overall, it still suffers from goals/villains that change with each chapter--as does every other class in this game. ( Just what have you played, anyway? The Consular storyline starts with a strange misfortune that slowly reveals into a very indistinct malevolent power working constantly against you for at least four planets, and then you finally find out how to put a face to the evil (with great personal effort). Next you find out how this adversary was tied in with everything else you discovered, and then you have to make a big choice about how you want to deal with things. Each step of the way, you have to make complicated choices and sacrifices, not knowing for sure how they will affect the end result. THEN, you find a single, even more powerful adversary, and then there's a surprising twist on that adversary that makes you reconsider everything... Don't kid yourself. This has ALL the trappings of KOTOR. It's really closer to eight KOTORs in one, and you can play with your friends, and there are thousands of other people out there you could meet. This is easily the most story-filled MMO I've ever heard of. You know a more story-filled one? Consider: Every class has at least one, but more like three, over-arching goals that span multiple planets. Every planet has a primary campaign goal. Every planet has a class-specific sub-goal, tied into at least one of their over-arching class goals. Every class has a crew of at least five interesting characters, which arel short stories in their own right, are still tied into the overall picture. Each Flashpoint and Operation has its own mini-story that plays out. One other mistake people often make is comparing something not to any reasonable standard, but to an imaginary, perfect dreamworld product they have in their mind. There are real world limitations to why that dreamworld product isn't realistic. Do you know anything else in the real world that has more or better story? If so, you need to start bringing those into the conversation so we can compare and contrast. ESPECIALLY given the very real limitations on time, money, and server power, I think the sheer amount of story that is live and running right now is amazing. If you don't see better, you have to consider that it MIGHT be that such a heavenly effort SIMPLY ISN'T PLAUSIBLE FOR HUMANITY at the current time. What's the best story game you've ever made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnnyB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 All right. Let me spell it out for all of you what is off about the class stories. 1) The goals of each class story change with every chapter. I never know what my character's true story goal/motivation is, because it is always shifting. Note: This does not happen in novels or books. It also doesn't happen in Bioware's hit RPGs (such as KOTOR). 2) The villains likewise change or rotate. Sometimes they just magically go away for a while, to suddenly reappear at random. Note: This does not happen in novels or books. It also doesn't happen in Bioware's hit RPGs (such as KOTOR). 3) Certain turning points present in every novel/movie are missing. Please reference Campbell, Vogler, or even Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat!" book. (See below for a breakdown of KOTOR to the Hero's Journey.) 4) There is no obvious theme. The theme is the essentially the lesson the protagonist has to learn to finally overcome the big obstacle in his way (the villain). Even KOTOR had a theme. It was redemption. 5) Because there is no theme, by necessity important plot points from #3 are missing and, even if they weren't, they'd be sorely lacking in any depth. The "Dark Night of the Soul" from the Hero's Journey, for example, not only deals with the protagonist suffering a defeat, but in him finally learning the theme. Before that point, the protagonist has been avoiding learning the theme at all costs. Now he is forced to learn it to overcome the villain in the final fight. I think some people are having story-related issues in part because they are trying to complete multiple story lines at the same time. Are you trying to accomplish a planet's storyline and your own class story line at the same time? If so then either learn to deal with keeping track of two stories at once or only do one at a time. There's no way for BW to mesh 4 class stories with each planet story perfectly the way the can in a single player game as in a single player game there's only one class storyline to worry about. That said, having done the Smuggler storyline... 1) Each chapter is its own storyline. They may not tie together strongly in terms of plot, but the plot is not the entire story - some parts are there to establish a theme, or feel to the overall story or are used for developing characters and their motivations. For my smuggler: Act 1: Ship is stolen. Get ship back / defeat jerk that took it. Act 2: Find on the ship a treasure map of sorts. Bounce around galaxy to get treasure. Act 3: Villains from back in act 1 catch up to you and you work to defeat them as a newly commissioned privateer. 2) Didn't have any issues here. Villains seemed interrelated enough. Sure some went away for a while (cuz I kicked their butt) only to return but that's a good thing. In KOTOR you fight different enemies all the time and recurring ones come and go so I'm not sure what problems you are having w/your class. 3) Again, I didn't run into any issues here. 4) Smuggler's theme: profit-seeking individual sucked into the war against his / her will. Without the aid of a military backing them or Jedi super-powers the smuggler has to learn to survive and eventually learn to think beyond the confines of her / his own needs and work to influence the lives of others (for good or ill). Basically Han Solo's theme. 5) Had a "theme" so no issues here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karkais Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 One other mistake people often make is comparing something not to any reasonable standard, but to an imaginary, perfect dreamworld product they have in their mind. There are real world limitations to why that dreamworld product isn't realistic. Perfectly said, I would give 'like' to this post if I could. Bioware really did deliver as far as gameplay goes. This is a truly unique MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poasiodss Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 TLDR Version: In high school, my teacher taught me about the elements of a literature, mmmkay? Now, I run around and use them as a ruler to judge every story, mmmkay? These stories don't conform to these rules, mmmkay? So, these stories suck, mmmkay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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