Consular...the ultimate Fred Flinstone fantasy...

[Archaar]

I have a 50 sage and now a 40 Shadow (I love my shadow btw) and the gear is...horrible. People are attracted to the way a character looks and plays, the Empire side looks way cooler, even the companions look better than some of the tosh we get.

 

The only way to start sorting out the faction imbalance is by making republic characters, especially Jedi look cooler, people like their characters too look cool, not look like a clown with a table for a hat.

 

Honestly, it still baffles me how bioware let his gear design make it into the game.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Archaar

[Skoll]

I have a 50 sage and now a 40 Shadow (I love my shadow btw) and the gear is...horrible. People are attracted to the way a character looks and plays, the Empire side looks way cooler, even the companions look better than some of the tosh we get.

 

The only way to start sorting out the faction imbalance is by making republic characters, especially Jedi look cooler, people like their characters too look cool, not look like a clown with a table for a hat.

 

Honestly, it still baffles me how bioware let his gear design make it into the game.

 

There are only two reasons I haven't switched sides, despite wanting to vomit with rage and disgust all over the Queen of Naboo theme Bioware has cursed us with:

1. I don't want to support a bunch of space nazis, even if they're only virtual.
   
2. Light side Inquisitors? I can't bring myself to suspend my disbelief quite that much. Force Lightning is a Dark side technique that requires you to tap into the Dark side and the Dark side corrupts you every time you do that. You should be getting DS points every time you use Force Lightning techniques. But I digress...
   

[Dyvim]

Dark side is more likely to throw lightning (Palpatine, Dooku). Vader threw objects like his lightsaber, and random crap at Luke. So really, any offensive tactic is dark side.

 

"Jedi use the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack" - Yoda

 

If we use the movies as reference, then Consulars would be the premiere tank class, without an ounce of dps abilities. Lines like that are great in a movie, and terrible in any game.

 

Rag-wearing: Obi-wan on Tattooine, Yoda on Dagobah. There are clear rips and frayed patches on Yoda's robe.

 

Your premises are simply wrong. Would you say people that practice judo or aikido never do any "dps"? IT IS ABOUT PHILOSOPHY. You use your opponents aggression to damage him. God forbid if it actually took some thought and work to provide a jedi class in a 200 mill+ MMO that actually followed the lore and played like a JEDI...COMEON PEOPLE. Sorry, but I am so tired of people not getting it. Just like the devs obviously didnt get it. Believe it or not, just about everything attacks you in this game, so it wouldnt be a stretch to come up with at least a subset of skills, like absorb, reflect, etc, that take the aggressors energy and damage him with it...seemed to work great in a NUMBER of jedi games.

 

But one thing you should NEVER DO is take a darkside/sith trait, junk tossing, and base the whole lightside class on it...Vader did it, Maul did it, Dooku did it, and Palpitane did it. ALL OF THEM threw junk/debris, etc. That isnt just unimaginative, that violates the fundamentals of the lore and is downright STUPID. Unimaginative would be using force kinetic effects based off things like push, shockwave, etc, as outlined in my other thread on animation replacement. At this point Im willing to settle for unimaginative versus just PLAIN WRONG.

 

OK as far as Yoda and Kenobi's robes....THEY HAD BEEN IN HIDING FOR 20 YEARS in a swamp or in a desert. That was why they were in tatters. They werent jedi consulars at THE HEIGHT of the Republic. You want to be a diplomatic and negotiate a treaty and you show up in rags? REALLY. Geesh people, THINK please. In this game's story line my consular has a ship FULL of diplomats. I am a diplomatic, high level diplomatic envoy. AND I WEAR RAGS??? Also, notice I talked about gear progression...the lower level stuff is ok...it's the endgame gear that totally goes to rags and jumps the shark.

 

And for everyone that excuses lack of lore fidelity and POOR DESIGN with "go play another class because I am happy with poor design and a jedi class that doesnt look or feel like a jedi caster"...lol, I AM playing other classes. That still doesnt excuse this class or make up for a lack of a solid jedi caster class in the game. I have a feeling alot of people either just dont know the lore or simply dont care about it. Well that kind of ruins the whole point of having an IP based MMO. Also, there are reasons that there are more sith than republic on just about every server. One of them is the lack of coolness factor on teh rpeublic side. No class exhibits that problem MORE than the consular classes. Sith melt people with lightning...we throw junk and pebbles...yeah, thats cool...but different. Heck, its not even jedi-ish.

 

So I'm still waiting for some actual solid arguments supporting this wrong "theme" for this class, other than "I like it..."

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

If you want to say " this doesn't fit the jedi theme " exactly what " jedi theme " are you talking about ? Like... did ANY non-sith jedi in the movies wear " bling " crap ? No, they wore robes.

 

You can QQ about the gear all you want but don't say it isn't appropriate.

 

Again, I said gear progression...explain to me how it makes sense that the gear progresses from noble/diplomatic/effeminate robes to rags...tattered rags. Explain how that makes sense for a jedi class...THE diplomats and negotiators for the jedi at the HEIGHT of the Republic...NOT after 20 years of exile and hiding in a swamp or in a desert at the height of the Empire in the original trilogy...you can't, because IT DOESN'T.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dyvim

[Phosus]

Are you kidding me? The ONLY person throwing things is DOOKU, the sith. Yoda deflects them. Dooku, the sith starts by THROWING things at Yoda. Comeon. That is the whole point, a FEW jedi have thrown objects as attacks. Yoda in RotS, but he throws back one senate car after Sidious throws several at him. Anakin in AotCs, but he is far from the jedi poster boy and is very much on his path to the darkside. In the same movie he slaughters sandpeople, gets married, and a host of other, non-jedi behavior.

 

EVERY SITH throws things. Maul, Vader, Dooku, Palpitane. Thats why you would NEVER base a jedi casting class on throwing rocks, junk and debris. Ever since Vader threw debris on Bespin and debris throwing was a darkside trait in the first real jedi game, DF2:JK, everyone knows debris throwing is a inherently, typically, darkside trait.

 

Hey, Luke had to throw a rock to kill the Rancor. lol Other than that, Jedi are so passive that you hardly see them do anything other than defending themselves with their saber or performing Jedi mind tricks. Sadly, hurling garbage at our attackers is more imaginable than shooting lightning at them. What else could the devs had done? Maybe we could meditate our opponents to death.

[Dyvim]

Hey, Luke had to throw a rock to kill the Rancor. lol Other than that, Jedi are so passive that you hardly see them do anything other than defending themselves with their saber or performing Jedi mind tricks. Sadly, hurling garbage at our attackers is more imaginable than shooting lightning at them. What else could the devs had done? Maybe we could meditate our opponents to death.

 

lol, funny you should ask...what else could the devs done....what else in deed...

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235

 

Now, just to be clear, so, like in other threads people who dont know or remember the lore don't grab onto the "Luke threw a rock when he killed the rancor"...you are being sarcastic which I appreciate...Luke PHYSICALLY threw the rock, with his hand. Just to be clear. lol

 

But what you dont do is take a sith ability/trait/predilection and make it the BASIS for the jedi skills. Sorry. WRONG. Fix it please. Amongst people with blasters, rocket launchers, flame throwers, lightning casters, etc., I get to throw rocks??? I cant count how many different kinds of stupid that is...no wonder republic forces get wiped out so much...they are too busy laughing and snickering at their jedi generals throwing junk and rocks to pull the trigger at the enemy...

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dyvim

[hadoken]

The wonderful thing about the sage is that being light armor, you can wear any social gear you want instead of class restricted things. Very soon you'll even be able to do that effectively while raiding and in endgame pvp too.

 

Really, you have more appearance variety than any other class.

 

As far as the spell effects go, project was pretty bad in beta but is fine now. TK throw has always been fine to me. Be careful not to project your personal opinions as the opinions of the masses, cause you have no idea.

[Dyvim]

The wonderful thing about the sage is that being light armor, you can wear any social gear you want instead of class restricted things. Very soon you'll even be able to do that effectively while raiding and in endgame pvp too.

 

Really, you have more appearance variety than any other class.

 

As far as the spell effects go, project was pretty bad in beta but is fine now. TK throw has always been fine to me. Be careful not to project your personal opinions as the opinions of the masses, cause you have no idea.

 

Yeah, I have no idea, except for 6 movies and a pretty good understanding of the lore. Jedi dont throw junk as the basis for their skills.

 

I do appreciate the social gear, especially voss, but until pvp gear is adjusted that does us no good. And STILL doesnt make up for the endgame pvp gear that jumped the shark, it should look good and be a good choice, irregardless of what social gear is available.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Dyvim

[Ellisande]

Yeah, I have no idea, except for 6 movies and a pretty good understanding of the lore. Jedi dont throw junk as the basis for their skills.

 

They also don't fruitlessly whale against their foes with light clubs either but quickly dispatch them with lightsabers that are capable of cutting right through every material they touch.

[RobNightfall]

I enjoy the consular class. I'm sorry you don't.

Perhaps instead of Bioware reworking all aspects of the class to please those who don't like it, those individuals should consider playing a class they do like.

 

Or perhaps they should realize the primary reason that the Republic is so heavily outnumbered is because we look so shabby. The simple truth is the Sith look cooler and their powers look cooler. I play a jedi shadow and love the way he plays, but he looks awful. I keep wishing I could just grab the smuggler gunslinger outfit and mod it for my character. Then at least he would look good.

[RobNightfall]

They also don't fruitlessly whale against their foes with light clubs either but quickly dispatch them with lightsabers that are capable of cutting right through every material they touch.

 

There was a suggestion made in beta that they should replace lightsaber noises with puppy squeaky toy noises to better represent the saber combat funtionality

[Dyvim]

They also don't fruitlessly whale against their foes with light clubs either but quickly dispatch them with lightsabers that are capable of cutting right through every material they touch.

 

depends, lightsaber duels can go on for a while...and if the vibrosword or electrostaff or whatever has cortosis in it, which is supposed to be pretty common in this timeline, then, that saber isnt cutting throw it, period.

 

Also, you are mixing apples and oranges. I appreciate that you are saying that sometimes game mechanics have to outweigh lore, but I would add VERY carefully as a caveat to that...but that is different than what this thread is about...this thread is about the DESIGN AND THEME of the class, which should be VERY MUCH married to the lore. And it CLEARLY is not. Throwing junk and wearing rags does not make star wars fans instantly think JEDI. Sorry, if you like it, if you think it does, you are entitled to like it, but you are wrong if you think it matches what a star wars fan thinks jedi is or should be.

[Sotaudi]

Then you havent been reading the forum.

 

Please explain to me with something other than "I like it". Beause there are plenty of people that dont like it. Explain to me how the gear progression is so great. Explain to me how throwing junk, debris, and pebbles, and having all your skills based on that, is so great...in relation to jedi lore. Please, would love to hear it.

 

I am a Shadow, which is a Consular. I have a single lightsaber strike, a double lightsaber strike, and a strike from behind with my lightsaber. I have an AoE lightsaber strike, and one which I twirl over my head that does a lot of damage. I have two jumping spin kicks. With the Force, I can shove all targets near me away, or pull one to me from a considerable distance. I can also pick up a target and suspend it in the air for a short time. I can mez a target with the Force or I can stun it. I can do direct damage and damage over time to multiple targets. I can increase my defense and guard another target. I can also disappear from view.

 

Oh, yes, and I have one skill that rips up a heavy object and hits the target, and one other that channels the Force towards someone picking up debris in the process.

 

I am not seeing where "all [my] skills are based on that." Explain to me how they are. Please, I would love to hear it.

[hadoken]

depends, lightsaber duels can go on for a while...and if the vibrosword or electrostaff or whatever has cortosis in it, which is supposed to be pretty common in this timeline, then, that saber isnt cutting throw it, period.

 

Also, you are mixing apples and oranges. I appreciate that you are saying that sometimes game mechanics have to outweigh lore, but I would add VERY carefully as a caveat to that...but that is different than what this thread is about...this thread is about the DESIGN AND THEME of the class, which should be VERY MUCH married to the lore. And it CLEARLY is not. Throwing junk and wearing rags does not make star wars fans instantly think JEDI. Sorry, if you like it, if you think it does, you are entitled to like it, but you are wrong if you think it matches what a star wars fan thinks jedi is or should be.

 

First you use hilarious words like irregardless and now you tell people what all star wars fans think (as if we aren't star wars fans too, even). Really, you're not helping your argument at all with these things you're throwing around in this thread. It's one thing to feel passionate about something, it's another to let it drive you to stupidity.

 

For the record, before the prequel trilogy nobody even knew yoda and palpatine (who the sage and sorcerer are based upon) even HAD lightsabers. It is entirely plausible for a jedi wizard (which is what they were called initially) to use more 'earthy' powers than...whatever it is you're imagining they use based on non existant movie representation of a jedi's force powers (which were strictly defensive there).

 

I'm also curious where the movie representation of the gunslinger and sniper classes are, since according to you they must be married to the role in some fashion.

[Dyvim]

First you use hilarious words like irregardless and now you tell people what all star wars fans think (as if we aren't star wars fans too, even). Really, you're not helping your argument at all with these things you're throwing around in this thread. It's one thing to feel passionate about something, it's another to let it drive you to stupidity.

 

For the record, before the prequel trilogy nobody even knew yoda and palpatine (who the sage and sorcerer are based upon) even HAD lightsabers. It is entirely plausible for a jedi wizard (which is what they were called initially) to use more 'earthy' powers than...whatever it is you're imagining they use based on non existant movie representation of a jedi's force powers (which were strictly defensive there).

 

I'm also curious where the movie representation of the gunslinger and sniper classes are, since according to you they must be married to the role in some fashion.

 

What I find hilarious is how I destroy your argument, then the best you can do is complain about irregardless. As long as you are looking up irregardless, look up stupidity. Canon is completely on my side. If you want to talk about the original trilogy, then for CERTAIN no one would have EVER thought jedi would throw junk. Vader did it. Period. I could care less about gunslingers or snipers, this is a thread about jedi consulars, primarily sages.

 

I'll say it again, try to focus on it. Jedi DO NOT throw junk as the foundation of their skills. PERIOD. They also dont wear rags, unless they have been in seclusion, hiding in a swamp or desert from the empire for 20 years. TRY to focus on that, if you want to posit an argument that deserves to be taken seriously.

[ScramblesTD]

Theres a whole lotta mad in this thread.

 

It almost begs the question "you mad bro?"

[Dyvim]

I am a Shadow, which is a Consular. I have a single lightsaber strike, a double lightsaber strike, and a strike from behind with my lightsaber. I have an AoE lightsaber strike, and one which I twirl over my head that does a lot of damage. I have two jumping spin kicks. With the Force, I can shove all targets near me away, or pull one to me from a considerable distance. I can also pick up a target and suspend it in the air for a short time. I can mez a target with the Force or I can stun it. I can do direct damage and damage over time to multiple targets. I can increase my defense and guard another target. I can also disappear from view.

 

Oh, yes, and I have one skill that rips up a heavy object and hits the target, and one other that channels the Force towards someone picking up debris in the process.

 

I am not seeing where "all [my] skills are based on that." Explain to me how they are. Please, I would love to hear it.

 

Your non melee/non lightabers skills are the same as sages, they start with chunk a clunker and pebblestorm and are largely based on them, especially project, for the rest of the class. I would've thought that would be obvious. It is also obvious that you have the same gear progression issue. But again, obviously this thread is primarily about consular/sages, as far as the jedi caster = rock/junk thrower. But, again, shadows have the exact same problem, in that they are forced to throw junk and pebbles. Got it? How many talents go back to project and throw??? You also have a skill where rocks circle you, that is beyond idiotic looking. Magic rocks, that appear from nowhere.

 

 

Please people, stick to trying to argue or overcome the basic issues. No one can, so I understand why some folks mix things up, or simply ignore the salient points...let me repeat them...

 

1) The gear progresses to rags. This is idiotic, especially for this time frame. I am a diplomat, I am an envoy of the jedi council. The Republic is at its height or near it. Why do I wear rags?

 

2) Sith throw stuff. Every sith in every movie threw debris or junk. EVERY ONE. Jedi typically do not. Yoda did, once as a response. Anakin did twice, but he is no jedi poster boy, in the same movie he slaughtered innocents and got married. So, throwing junk, by its very nature, is anger and aggression driven. Yet the ranged attacks for jedi are based on throwing junk/debris/rocks/pebbles. These items magically appear out of the ground, and frequently do so in places they simply could not exist. Its stupid. Its wrong. It does NOT fit with the jedi archetype according to the ultimate canon of the movies or the majority of the other star wars lore.

 

Try to handle either of these points if you want to reply to my thread. Otherwise, you miss the point. Thx.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Dyvim

[ScramblesTD]

Your non melee/non lightabers skills are the same as sages, they start with chunk a clunker and pebblestorm and are largely based on them, especially project, for the rest of the class. I would thought that would be obvious. It is also obvious that you have the same gear progression issue. But again, obviously this thread is primarily about consular/sages, as far as the jedi caster = rock/junk thrower. But, again, shadows have the exact same problem, in that they are forced to throw junk and pebbles. Got it? How many talents go back to project and throw??? You also have a skill where rocks circle you, that is beyond idiotic looking. Magic rocks, that appear from no where.

 

 

Please people stick to trying to argue or overcome the basic issues. No one can, so I understand why some folks mix things up, or simply ignore the salient points...let me repeat them...

 

1) The gear progresses to rags. This is idiotic, especially for this time frame. I am a diplomat, I am an envoy of the jedi council. THe Republic is at its height or near it. Why do I wear rags?

 

2) Sith throw stuff. Every sith in every movie threw debris or junk. EVERY ONE. Jedi typically do not. Yoda did, once as a response. Anakin did twice, but in he is no jedi poster boy, in the same movie he slaughtered innocents and got married. So, throwing junk, by its very nature is anger and aggression driven. Yet the ranged attacks for jedi are based on throwing junk/debris/rocks/pebbles. These items magically appear out of the ground, and frequently do so in places they simply could not exist. Its stupid. Its wrong, its does NOT fit witht the jedi archetype according to the ultimate canon of the movies.

 

Try to handle either if these points if you want to reply to my thread. Otherwise, you miss the point. Thx.

 

 

 

You're just jelly of our pebble storms. Admit it.

 

Also, you are now officially mad bro.

[Skoll]

What I find hilarious is how I destroy your argument, then the best you can do is complain about irregardless. As long as you are looking up irregardless, look up stupidity. Canon is completely on my side. If you want to talk about the original trilogy, then for CERTAIN no one would have EVER thought jedi would throw junk. Vader did it. Period. I could care less about gunslingers or snipers, this is a thread about jedi consulars, primarily sages.

 

I'll say it again, try to focus on it. Jedi DO NOT throw junk as the foundation of their skills. PERIOD. They also dont wear rags, unless they have been in seclusion, hiding in a swamp or desert from the empire for 20 years. TRY to focus on that, if you want to posit an argument that deserves to be taken seriously.

 

Ahem...

[Dyvim]

Ahem...

 

I can keep posting it...

 

Please people, stick to trying to argue or overcome the basic issues. No one can, so I understand why some folks mix things up, or simply ignore the salient points...let me repeat them...

 

1) The gear progresses to rags. This is idiotic, especially for this time frame. I am a diplomat, I am an envoy of the jedi council. The Republic is at its height or near it. Why do I wear rags?

 

2) Sith throw stuff. Every sith in every movie threw debris or junk. EVERY ONE. Jedi typically do not. Yoda did, once as a response. Anakin did twice, but he is no jedi poster boy, in the same movie he slaughtered innocents and got married. So, throwing junk, by its very nature, is anger and aggression driven. Yet the ranged attacks for jedi are based on throwing junk/debris/rocks/pebbles. These items magically appear out of the ground, and frequently do so in places they simply could not exist. Its stupid. Its wrong. It does NOT fit with the jedi archetype according to the ultimate canon of the movies or the majority of the other star wars lore.

 

Try to handle either of these points if you want to reply to my thread. Otherwise, you miss the point. Thx.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Dyvim

[Ellisande]

depends, lightsaber duels can go on for a while...and if the vibrosword or electrostaff or whatever has cortosis in it, which is supposed to be pretty common in this timeline, then, that saber isnt cutting throw it, period.

 

That only exists in the EU which is not G canon. I am even going to out on a limb and say that this substance was specifically created by a fan fic writer who was fervently in love with Jango Fett and hated how he was dishonorably killed in EP 6 so much that he went out of his way to invent a material that would make his Mary Sue bounty hunter completely impervious to lightsabers just cause he was so mad.

 

And that right there is a perfect example of why I do not accept EU stuff as canon.

 

In the movies this material does not exist and has never ever existed. If it did exist you can bet your *** that it would have made an appearance.

 

To address the actual topic at hand, double project just looks plain badas. I don't really care that it has no George Lucas precedent, My KC Shadow just wouldn't be the same without it.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Ellisande

[ubertrunks]

http://cdn-www.swtor.com/sites/all/files/en/classes/jedi-consular/images/ca3_800x450.jpg

 

 

How is that not the most ****** gear you have ever seen?

 

Looks like it blurred out that word. Anyways, I think the gear looks amazing. Makes you look mysterious and hardened.

Edited January 21, 2012 by ubertrunks

[Dyvim]

That only exists in the EU which is not G canon. I am even going to out on a limb and say that this substance was specifically created by a fan fic writer who was fervently in love with Jango Fett and hated how he was dishonorably killed in EP 6 so much that he went out of his way to invent a material that would make his Mary Sue bounty hunter completely impervious to lightsabers just cause he was so mad.

 

And that right there is a perfect example of why I do not accept EU stuff as canon.

 

In the movies this material does not exist and has never ever existed. If it did exist you can bet your *** that it would have made an appearance.

 

To address the actual topic at hand, double project just looks plain badas. I don't really care that it has no George Lucas precedent, My KC Shadow just wouldn't be the same without it.

 

Uh, Cortosis is in this game, its a material involved in crafting, Ive used it, I believe in Artifice...but it might have been synthweaving...anyway, I'm sure you can look it up if you dont believe me...lol

 

But as far as what was in the movies, how do you explain Grievous body guards electrostaves? If they didnt have cortosis in them, lightsabers should have cut right through them...or at least they should of...but yes, it is simpler to stick to the movies to go with the mainstream of what you would expect to see in a jedi class...everyone has seen the movies and they are the best basis for canon.

 

That is why basing the ranged attacks of the consular class on a typical sith style/theme of power/ability, as shown to us repeatedly in the movies, is entirely unacceptable. Vader, Palpitane, Dooku, etc. hurling objects looked plain bad@#$ too, but that doesnt mean its appropriate for a jedi...Your shadow and mine would look even better with a bad@#$ kinetic force attack, not throwing junk that magically appears up out of the floor. And as importantly it would actually fit better with the canon instead of slapping it in the face and "feel" more like jedi.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

http://cdn-www.swtor.com/sites/all/files/en/classes/jedi-consular/images/ca3_800x450.jpg

 

 

How is that not the most ****** gear you have ever seen?

 

Looks like it blurred out that word. Anyways, I think the gear looks amazing. Makes you look mysterious and hardened.

 

You are joking right? Its in tatters...rags. It makes you look like a tramp, a vagabond. The equivalent would be jedi knights in armour that was rusted and falling apart. Hard to explain better. The elite jedi diplomats dont wear rags. It looks like something that belongs on a shaman somewhere in some generic crap fantasy MMO. Just like some of the sith inquisitor headgear looks like it belongs on a voodoo witch doctor somewhere.

[ubertrunks]

You have an idea of Jedi drilled into your mind that they all have to look a certain way. You're right though we should all dress the same and do all of the same things and talk the same way because nothing great was ever accomplished by challenging the status quo... OH WAIT