Dual Spec - It's a must! (NOT ACs)

[Lerthan]

I still don't see any compelling case not to introduce a duel spec system.

 

Sure there's a lot of subjective reasoning as to why it's a bad idea - other MMOs felt worse afterwards, players will get left out, some classes will be affected differently than others...

 

The simple fact remains that a duel spec system would let everyone have just that - a 2nd spec. Whether that lets you take on a DPS role aswell as a healing role, or lets you change from a mobile DPS role to a stationary DPS role, the fact is it's still allows you to set your skill points out in a differnt way.

 

Whilst I can understand some of the points against it, 99% of them are based on opinion. With nearyly every major (and minor?) MMO on the market today having some sort of duel spec system, I'd wager that statistics would not back these arguements. Games don't suddenly fall apart, people will always find a way into groups - even if they are terrible and people that role pure DPS classes are normally happy to be able to have the 2nd spec to tinker with new setups and min/max the way they want.

 

It's just offereing another option to cater for a different playstyle. "You want to heal and DPS? Roll an alt!" Does not offer as much flexablity as, "You want to heal and DPS? Roll an alt, or use your 2nd spec!"

 

 

The largest reason to not implement dual spec is actually very simple. Pure dps classes with no tanking tree or healing tree will have a harder time finding groups. Why should I tank your Pure DPS class when I can take a hybrid, get almost the same dps out of you and have the additional option of having you heal or off tank for the group.

 

The only way to balance that out is to make the pure dps classes a head and shoulders above in damage any other class out there. This then creates balance issues in pvp ect. Better to just keep it at a single spec and have the classes balanced so that you bring the player not the class to group content.

[Tolil]

The largest reason to not implement dual spec is actually very simple. Pure dps classes with no tanking tree or healing tree will have a harder time finding groups. Why should I tank your Pure DPS class when I can take a hybrid, get almost the same dps out of you and have the additional option of having you heal or off tank for the group.

 

What you just described is where the game is right now. Pure DPS classes can't heal or tank - yet I don't see any outpooring anywhere complaining that they can't get a group over a hybrid class.

 

As for MajikMyst, if the best you can do is misquote me then you don't have an arguement.

You have a Sage but don't like healing - good for you, but tell me who would be coming over to your house holding a gun to your head forcing you to have a healing spec.

 

Please put a bit of effort in your reply this time - don't just edit my words.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tolil

[Phima]

Not a must at all.

 

And let's not forget, it has its downsides. You'll get idiots who can't heal or tank filling those roles because it gets them into a group. Then you get cretins taking, for instance, tank gear when they joined as a DPS because they have a tanking off spec, or might one day make one.

[MrOrionQuest]

What you just described is where the game is right now. Pure DPS classes can't heal or tank - yet I don't see any outpooring anywhere complaining that they can't get a group over a hybrid class.

 

As for MajikMyst, if the best you can do is misquote me then you don't have an arguement.

You have a Sage but don't like healing - good for you, but tell me who would be coming over to your house holding a gun to your head forcing you to have a healing spec.

 

Please put a bit of effort in your reply this time - don't just edit my words.

 

Don't be foolish. How many raiding guilds require you to have not only a competent 2nd spec built for another role, but have gear and parses to show how good they are? Every competitive guild does this, your 2nd spec for a hybrid no longer becomes a "fun" thing just to have, it's a requirement. This is especially true for tanks.

[Tolil]

Don't be foolish. How many raiding guilds require you to have not only a competent 2nd spec built for another role, but have gear and parses to show how good they are? Every competitive guild does this, your 2nd spec for a hybrid no longer becomes a "fun" thing just to have, it's a requirement. This is especially true for tanks.

 

So you don't want there to be a duel spec option incase you get asked to take a role you don't like to help out your raid? You would deny the rest of the playerbase a game mechanic because you chose a demanding playstyle, but want to limit its affect on you? That's a bit selfish, isn't it?

[Uben]

What you just described is where the game is right now. Pure DPS classes can't heal or tank - yet I don't see any outpooring anywhere complaining that they can't get a group over a hybrid class.

 

As for MajikMyst, if the best you can do is misquote me then you don't have an arguement.

You have a Sage but don't like healing - good for you, but tell me who would be coming over to your house holding a gun to your head forcing you to have a healing spec.

 

Please put a bit of effort in your reply this time - don't just edit my words.

 

He is right though. Right now there is no dual spec. There is a cost to re-spec that increases each time you use it from the vendor. People are currently hedging the bet and going with what is available. 1 class, 1 spec and it pays to stick to it. Dual spec totally changes the deal. At that point it is a dual spec game. People will hedge the same bets on the new mechanic. 2 roles to play so people can fill a different group role at any time.

 

 

 

 

 

Would YOU... and, I ask this honestly... play a '1 role' character in a dual spec game?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Uben

[Tolil]

I'm done throwing back your arguments. If you can't see that anything you say to try and reject a widely used game mechanic boils down to opinion and conjecture, then I wont waste anymore of my time. I have to sleep and work now like a normal human being.

[MrOrionQuest]

The answer is simple; by not having a dual spec system, you don't get shoehorned into having to play a role (or in plenty of cases multiple roles) because it's demanded of you and it's standard you have to live up to.

 

If your guild recruits, you won't have a need for your healer to switch out to a DPS role. If you're not making enrage timers having a 2nd tank around, your DPS are the problem, not the 2nd tank.

[Uben]

I'm done throwing back your arguments. If you can't see that anything you say to try and reject a widely used game mechanic boils down to opinion and conjecture, then I wont waste anymore of my time. I have to sleep and work now like a normal human being.

 

Sleep well. See you back here tomorrow.

[Lerthan]

What you just described is where the game is right now. Pure DPS classes can't heal or tank - yet I don't see any outpooring anywhere complaining that they can't get a group over a hybrid class.

 

As for MajikMyst, if the best you can do is misquote me then you don't have an arguement.

You have a Sage but don't like healing - good for you, but tell me who would be coming over to your house holding a gun to your head forcing you to have a healing spec.

 

Please put a bit of effort in your reply this time - don't just edit my words.

 

You add in dual spec you will have pure dps classes not able to find groups. They will be shunned in favor of the hybrid specs that have more to offer to the group then just damage.

 

As it stands right now it doesnt matter if I bring lets say a Sage thats dps speced or a Gunslinger. They are equal in terms of damage done and there is no incentive to bring one over the other.

 

Add in dual spec now there is an incentive for me to bring the Sage over the Gunslinger every time. The sage has more to offer then the Gunslinger specially when they do the equivalent in dps.

 

 

Maby you dint start playing MMO's till the Wrath era of WoW and if thats the case great, welcome to the community. However you missed the era of dual spec without the current LFG tool. As a raiding rogue, once dual spec came out, I could never find a group outside of my guild. I was always passed over in favor of the Paladin/Druid/Priest hybrids in the old LFG tool along with the mages and other pure dps classes. Yes with the current incarnation of the LFG tool that issue is alleviated. However they would never have needed to put it in and been able to keep the old style LFG tool if they had not added in Dual Spec.

[Tolil]

Would YOU... and, I ask this honestly... play a DPS ONLY character in a dual spec game?

 

Ok, 1 more.. I have already agreed that pure DPS ACs deserve to be looked at in a duel spec world. Back about 15-20 pages ago at a guess...

Sure give them a buffing role aswell, or something else.

The fact still stands though, how can a PURE DPS AC complain that they can't heal or tank after duel specs when they couldn't heal or tank BEFORE duel specs?

 

But, in closing - like I said - in the name of fairness, let them have a support role aswell.

 

NOW, I'm going to bed. It's been a fun debate.

[RJMazz]

Pure DPS classes can benefit from dual specs, yeah.

 

One DPS spec for PvP, one for PvE, done.

[MajikMyst]

As for MajikMyst, if the best you can do is misquote me then you don't have an arguement

 

Please put a bit of effort in your reply this time - don't just edit my words.

 

Well.. Since you obviously didn't even read my post?? As there were reasons given, arguements made, you just ignored them.. And there is a huge difference in misquote and editing.. I edited and showed that in my response.. Perhaps you should read what people say..

 

I have made my arguements and judging by the responses.. I am not the only that shares these concerns.. You have yet to even respond to them.. Perehaps you should put more effort in both reading the posts of others and writing your response??

[MajikMyst]

So you don't want there to be a duel spec option incase you get asked to take a role you don't like to help out your raid? You would deny the rest of the playerbase a game mechanic because you chose a demanding playstyle, but want to limit its affect on you? That's a bit selfish, isn't it?

 

Selfish is asking Bioware to make a change to the game that would have a negative impact on other players, but because of your own needs we all must live with this change..

 

Dual speccing is not in the game and it should stay that way..

 

You can change your spec at a skill mentor, at both the capital planets and fleet stations.. The cost increases the more you do it, but if you don't change it for 7 days the cost resets to 0.. The skill mentor is not there as a make shift dual speccing option.. I have respecced my Sage a number of times.. I have yet to pay a single credit.. I am actually just trying out different specs and seeing which ones I like.. Sometimes it is just to move a single skill point.. Been doing the same thing on my Sentinel..

 

There is simply no reason for dual speccing.. It does not have a positive impact on all players.. Doesn't have a positive impact on end game.. Doesn't have a positive impact on the community.. It is easy mode!!

 

The only reason to dual spec is to make things easier, and more convenient.. Easy mode.. That is it.. Most of us don't want easy mode!! I prefer to down a boss with the group I have and not have everyone change out specs to make some cookie cutter group.. I prefer to take someone on an OP becaue their DPS is awsome, not because they have a heal or tank spec..

 

Dual speccing forces us all to play a game that most of us don't want to play.. I played it in WOW.. Been there done that.. I am ready to play a real MMO now.. Where actual skill and thought are required.. Selfish is trying to turn this game into something it isn't and making us all play it your way.. We like the game the way it is.. There is no need to add dual speccing..

[MajikMyst]

Pure DPS classes can benefit from dual specs, yeah.

 

One DPS spec for PvP, one for PvE, done.

 

Except that Bioware has always said there would be no need for a PVP spec.. People can PVP in their PVE specs..

 

DPS is also the same in PVP and PVE so there is no PVP DPS spec.. DPS classes are going to spec for the most damage.. Hitting a mob is no different than hitting a person.. All the same statistics come into play..

 

So.. No.. Pure DPS classes have little use for dual speccing.. They didn't have much use for it in WOW either.. My lock was the same spec for both PVP and PVE.. The only difference was gear.. Got to love PVP stats.. But that is another issue..

[Leithian]

Lets talk about WOW again..... Mages ... Warlocks.....Hunters.....Rogues......

They dont have healer or tank specs......

Guess what their world didn't end, they still get groups. Just because you can heal or tank doesnt mean you HAVE to either.

 

 

The whole point of dual spec is to be able to make a group / raid viable if a key person is missing. No one is going to force you to heal or tank. In almost all MMO's ever created there is a huge majority who play dps vs heals or tanks.

 

Dual spec is not going to break the game its going to make it more flexible and help compensate for the massive abundance of dps players.

 

I'd say support classes are just as important for crowd control etc, but apparently everyone playing this game has no clue what cc , assist or any kind of logical system to avoid engaging multiple targets is.

 

pew pew .. agro .. dead dps....why am i dead .... maybe its cause we dont have a healer cause there is no dual spec ....

[Surakis]

I'm done throwing back your arguments. If you can't see that anything you say to try and reject a widely used game mechanic boils down to opinion and conjecture, then I wont waste anymore of my time. I have to sleep and work now like a normal human being.

 

Why can't you see that anything you say to advocate a game mechanic boils down to opinion and conjecture?

[Surakis]

Pure DPS classes can benefit from dual specs, yeah.

 

One DPS spec for PvP, one for PvE, done.

 

Except the main argument for duel specs is to allow DPS to tank or heal for PvE.

[Agenteusa]

maybe its cause we dont have a healer cause there is no dual spec ....

 

I´ll rejoin this topic just to say a couple of things.

 

First I´m happy some people actually understand my feelings on dual speccing and that it is a possible game and worst of all community breaker.

 

Second the fun of mmo´s imho is to play a char to its maximum potential at what you do be it a healer a dps or a tank. It´s the struggle for perfection that makes mmo´s fun for me.

 

it´s not about being a ROFLMAO tank/dps/heal on demand. "You can´t tank, **** it we´ll just kick you because I can and I´ll tank myself" are the kind of reactions I expect if dual speccing is implemented.

 

Think of it as a real life situation. You are a boat builder (and please don´t use this example to throw over the board situations) . Let´s say you need a woodcutter, a tinker and <insert profession here>. You have 4 posts but if you as the boat builder can also tinker and the woodcutter can fill the other role, 2 people are already alienated. Now scale it to whatever level you want. Actually it´s quite the same as to why unemployment is getting higher and higher around the world.

 

So actually i´ll say again that the reason why Dual spec shouldn´t be iimplemented it´s because it ruins the community above all. Those who were there when it got implemented know what I´m talking about it and you start playing in a different prism so you can´say "if you don´t like it don´t use it". It doesn´t work that way.

 

Rift also had problems with dual and dare i say tri specs (wasn´t exactly the same) but the outcome was similar. Ruined community (I´m basing that on several reviews I read post patches , so don´t take it as fact but it´s probably a real issue).

[DigitalPrime]

No to DS, We are not ment to fill every roll at the drop of a hat.

 

All the QQs about not having enough of a set roll is tripe. Get social, this is the reason why in a trinity based MMO we dont fill every roll. So you go out and find and fill that roll. Again helping the social aspect of the game.

 

But yeh, im sure ill hear more stories about not having enough rolls, or spending large amounts of time spamming in General. Yeh, sure!

 

In every MMO ive played, I have never had an issue finding a spot or getting a group together when i use social skills in the MMO world.

Edited February 7, 2012 by DigitalPrime

[Lerthan]

Lets talk about WOW again..... Mages ... Warlocks.....Hunters.....Rogues......

They dont have healer or tank specs......

Guess what their world didn't end, they still get groups. Just because you can heal or tank doesnt mean you HAVE to either.

 

 

The whole point of dual spec is to be able to make a group / raid viable if a key person is missing. No one is going to force you to heal or tank. In almost all MMO's ever created there is a huge majority who play dps vs heals or tanks.

 

Dual spec is not going to break the game its going to make it more flexible and help compensate for the massive abundance of dps players.

 

I'd say support classes are just as important for crowd control etc, but apparently everyone playing this game has no clue what cc , assist or any kind of logical system to avoid engaging multiple targets is.

 

pew pew .. agro .. dead dps....why am i dead .... maybe its cause we dont have a healer cause there is no dual spec ....

 

They find groups due to the random dungeon finder that wow has. Before said finder and after the addition of dual spec, their ability to find groups was severely impacted. Its one of the main reasons that the random dungeon finder was put into the game.

[Leithian]

They find groups due to the random dungeon finder that wow has. Before said finder and after the addition of dual spec, their ability to find groups was severely impacted. Its one of the main reasons that the random dungeon finder was put into the game.

 

And nothing will change because I'd hedge a bet 90% rolled a dps toon, groups are tiny at 4 players so there just isnt going to be enough tanks and healers to go around. So guess what you'll still be waiting........

 

As many people have pointed out you dont HAVE to dual spec, you dont HAVE to use the LFG tool if you want to group with guild and friends the tools will have no impact on you what so ever.

[NecrologyX]

it´s not about being a ROFLMAO tank/dps/heal on demand. "You can´t tank, **** it we´ll just kick you because I can and I´ll tank myself" are the kind of reactions I expect if dual speccing is implemented.

 

 

And this is bad how? The other option is "you're a bad tank, eff it I'm done cause I dont feel like spamming for another hour to find a possibly just as bad tank"

 

or you do start spamming, and 20 minutes in your healer/dps decide to leave cause they only had an hour and now its been 2 and their dog is on fire due to head aids and they cant play anymore, so now you have to find a new healer/dps and oh god one of the people who are left decided to go play something on Steam while they were waiting and who knows if they are coming back so I gotta find one of them now.

[Agenteusa]

As many people have pointed out you dont HAVE to dual spec, you dont HAVE to use the LFG tool if you want to group with guild and friends the tools will have no impact on you what so ever.

 

dude, seriously , if you don´t want to understand that implementing this feature will impact everyone either you want to use it or not, I don´t know how to tell you anymore.

 

At least read the posts above before you come and comment on something.

 

And this is bad how? The other option is "you're a bad tank, eff it I'm done cause I dont feel like spamming for another hour to find a possibly just as bad tank"

 

 

I´ll tell you how it´s bad. When people got the power to fill every role or almost they tend to become stupid, and there´s really no other way to put that. I´m not going to go over and explain again (if you don´t want to take it as a fact or at least a trend don´t) but I´ve been there, I know what he did to the community before. It might have been bad before but it just screwed it even more and the way most people perceived the game really changed.

 

Lots of people stopped even queuing because they were heavily mistreated in groups, from random kicks, to insults, etc.

 

You give people tools that get them further away from social experiences and you put a foot on the grave on community behavior (this is not a fact, this is my opinion based on my experience). And that should be one thing BW should try to conserve even though they got off to a bad start.

 

LFD isn´t a bad tool , it´s sort like recount, if you use it correctly it´s useful, if you don´t well same outcome as recount. Dual speccing is just a tool I don´t feel it´s needed.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Agenteusa

[Phagin]

Hi Bioware.....I realy miss a LFG tool in the game! It's so frustrating to get a group together in the game, when you have to ask people en general chat, and so forth when i wanna do a flashpoint, and i would imagen that other people feel the same? It would make the experience of the game so much more fluent, and fun, because people would have so much easier to get better gear, and socialize with other players in flashpoints, operations etc..

This is my wish for ToR, in a forseeable future!

 

Cheers!

 

-Christian