Consensus: Are Sentinels underpowered?

[DoomedtoDie]

Yes, that is exactly what i would do as well. But i wanted to stress in this post that a sentinel can keep a merc locked down with interrupts.

 

... anyone can do this, merc sucks 1v1.

[Payneful]

... anyone can do this, merc sucks 1v1.

 

I'm so very glad you said that. On my commando I have solo'd geared operatives and sorcerers as a gunnery spamming grav round. Funny how the game works.

[DoomedtoDie]

I'm so very glad you said that. On my commando I have solo'd geared operatives and sorcerers as a gunnery spamming grav round. Funny how the game works.

 

Well they need to learn to interrupt .

[thanealpha]

Speaking from a Combat spec, I can say with no doubt that we are UP.

 

1> Our skills do not fire reliably. I can tap Blade Storm and watch that animation start 4 times before it fires or doesn't. Meanwhile other classes have gotten TWO skills to fire and apply damage on my target. Similarly with dispatch, both our attack buffs (Blade Rush/Precision Slash). These skills, all the bread and butter of our attack ability are BORKED with the stuttering issue. I believe FIRMLY that these issues plague the Sent, and in particular the Combat Sent more than ANY OTHER class.

 

2> Damage vs Survivabiity. I believe that most specs of Sent do not get enough extra damage to counteract the loss of survivability that Guards and even moreso Troopers get. Troopers with significantly better defenses REGULARLY out dps Sents.

 

3> Anti-hybrid. Sents are one dimentional. We are dps. Period. For this reason we are gimped in Warzones as much or sometimes even worse than pure healers. We have only kill/damage medals to earn. Medals that can be equally earned by a Tank class in addition to their defense medals. PURE dps is typically rewarded less than hybrid classes.

 

4> Last but not least, the assumption that IF we're watchman, IF we're biochem, and IF we're geared correctly, and IF we use one specific pet that we're matched against other players. The issue is you need to compare apples to apples. A sent with all those things is weaker than many other classes IF they choose to optimize in that same way. I see a lot of people saying Sents aren't underpowered if they have all those things, but that assertion is assuming others do NOT have those things.

 

----

 

Note: I'm not talking about Watchman, or even Focus; I'm specifically addressing Combat as a underpowered class build...ESPECIALLY with the stuttering issue currently plaguing our class.

 

IF that is fixed...I look forward to seeing how we work out. Time will tell.

[pangwl]

Sent biggest problem would be in PvP... If you pay attention to the scoreboard, you'll realize that they can churn out big damages, but has higher deaths rate over kills rate.... so, I think that speaks for itself. But, if your group has 1 or 2 good healers, it'll be alright.

 

And of course, the issue with abilities not firing as it should.... blade storm for one, is a crucial dmg dealer for sents (combat), which unfortunately, is among the buggiest abilities... keep lifting the arm for nuts...

Edited January 23, 2012 by pangwl

[EasymodeX]

Also, the only ability bugs I've come across with sent is when force stasis and master strike start channeling and doing the animation but doesn't do anything at all. Other than that, ive gotten pretty good at spamming an ability until it decides to work.

 

I got off the speeder in Alderaan and hit Frenzy. Then I hit Predation (Transcendence). Then I hit it again. Then I hit it again. Then I hit it again. Then I hit it again. Then I hit it again (this is now 4 seconds later) and it went off.

 

Woot.

 

 

 

Just sayin', Sents do have to overcompensate because of the unreliability of the interface/system.

[urshen]

I don't know if its being underpowered vs having a higher skill cap...

 

I do see sents and maras that do ridiculous damage and just melt people, getting set up to melt someone like others have said due to focus requires a couple of globals (esp as watchman)... The class feels powerful in the sense that we do have good PvP utility, moderate-strong burst. But it takes skill and effort to stay close to your target to keep your rotation up, and intelligent timing on defensive cool downs, good decision making on what and when to interrupt, and can't just destroy someone by looking at them and pressing 1 2 and 3 a bunch.

 

Game bugs break this class more than the class being less powerful then other classes. I think sents are fun to play, and have the capacity to be very strong but requires a way more attentive and thoughtful player than say a Sorc/Sage or BH/Trooper.

[urshen]

Sent biggest problem would be in PvP... If you pay attention to the scoreboard, you'll realize that they can churn out big damages, but has higher deaths rate over kills rate.... so, I think that speaks for itself. But, if your group has 1 or 2 good healers, it'll be alright.

 

And of course, the issue with abilities not firing as it should.... blade storm for one, is a crucial dmg dealer for sents (combat), which unfortunately, is among the buggiest abilities... keep lifting the arm for nuts...

 

This isn't an issue with being underpowered, its an issue with the environments you are playing your class. Melee always has an issue dying a lot in any mmo without healers. Before you blame the class power for this. Think about how you are engaging, when you are using CD's, ect... by changing the way you approach the fight you might notice your dying less. Are you gonna go from 10 deaths a match to 2 solo Qing? No probably not, but once again dying is the nature of a melee class running around on their own. Regardless of spec (haven't played focus so I can't speak to that spec) we have a decent amount of defensive utility options. They need to be used smartly and if you don't have healers you need to engage smartly...

 

Players need to make sure they can differentiate between lack of skill and imbalance. I am Gold level SC2 player, and notice a lot how if you pick up games on early pools or Bio rush ect.. people will say oh your race is over powered, when in reality they didn't make smart game decisions that caused them to lose having nothing to do with the selected race (which is why, like me, they are at gold and not masters level play)...

 

You do two things by crying wolf when it comes to power issues..

 

1. You fail to make yourself a better player because you believe your lack of success is the result of class design and not play style or decision making, meaning that even if the class gets buffed you probably will stuck. Also if your complaints do get heard and the class is buffed it can throw balance off more because the people who play the class correctly will not dominate even harder.

 

2. You blur the lines on problems and make it harder for Bioware to determine what is leading to the percieved imbalance. There is a difference between ability stutter affecting our class success vs. not having the raw damage out put or tools to control or kill other players. I don't feel like the latter is an issue that affects good sentinels but you would never know it reading half of the responses on these forums... Yet the high valor players are constantly saying the damage on the class is fine and that they feel useful in fights, does it need a little tweaking? Maybe... however until the game breaking bugs are fixed its hard to make an adequate statement on where we sit on the scale of power.

 

 

Once again I believe our skill cap is higher than other classes, but that doesn't make us underpowered just more difficult to play and find success.

 

Note: I dont meant to use that quote to say that this poster is saying we are UP as he/she doesn't explictly state their opinion regarding that, however, does state a perception that seems to be a root cause for why sents might think they are UP.

Edited January 23, 2012 by urshen

[RelentlessWiz]

No. Learn to utilize all your skills. Find a good rotation. Doc's the best companion in my opinion.

[Renlotho]

One theory I have is that sentinels and really all melee REQUIRE a good rig to be competitive. If you are ranged you can hit a button acquire a target and channel through lag. Not so with a sent. I'm getting a new rig this week and will report back. I just have found that in addition to skill, we seem to require a great computer to really go nuts. Almost all the sent videos I see have FPS to die for. Lag from clusters of players kills my DPS and eventually me. We are also VERY gear dependent with no cc and very little utility outside group buffs. Now that I'm geared I do far FAR better than when I first started.

[Yogurt]

Rig is not the problem. It is their server if anything. Only reason I am not combat because of the server side lag and attack animation not actually executing. I run a rendering machine Overclock 2700k on Water. 32 gigs of ram, Crossfire 6950 HD Sapphire Toxic and I am OC to a stable of 5.0 ghz.

 

Connection? Naw, if 20 mb down 6 up on average is my bad then they need to talk to other games how to increase their serverside lag issues. Really do think combat is the most difficult tree to play but most rewarding in pvp.

 

Combat gives me the feeling of controlling a 2 v 1 or 1 v 1 fight alot more. Fix the lag or get rid of the silly animations for now.

 

And for the love of god do something with the RNG Champ bags. Sents/Mara are more reliant on a high end main hand then any other class.

[Muldrak]

Against the best of the best where you can truly feel the difference in class, from what I've seen Sentinels are doing pretty good. The problem is the learning curve for sentinels is the most difficult of the bunch.

 

My sentinel does about 300k on average per pvp match. Some of the other "good" sentinels out there post about the same. The problem is what happens when other "good" players get on the battlefield with different classes and we see how weak we actually are.

 

Very few classes can actually go toe to toe with my sentinel but the ones that can are arguably what some have already mentioned being slightly OP (I use that word with a cringe). Powertechs and Operatives have been the most difficult classes for me to overcome. Again, we're talking "good" players here. Other than that, the only way any of the other classes will beat me is if they have backup. In a perfect 1v1 environment, I can still wear down any other class.

 

The thing to keep in mind here is that some classes are simply not designed to be true 1v1 but rather strong in a team. Snipers/Gunslingers can bring a lot to the table but they can struggle a bit against a sentinel. Same can be said of Sorcs/Sages who can snare you, dot you, and put out a healthy steady stream of damage. If I go 1v1 against a sorc/sage it takes me roughly 15 seconds to kill them against our servers best (no joke). If they're using the backup of a team however, they're much much much stronger and possibly more useful than even myself. Its all situational.

 

My point is be careful with all the UP or OP statements. The game is young and a lot of data still needs to be collected. For my 2 cents however, as someone who has hit 600k in pvp now as a sentinel and 140k in heals, I will say this in conclusion: We are a strong class with a steep learning curve that struggles against organised pre-made teams. We 1v1 like beasts, but will still fall short of powertechs and sometimes operatives (if they get the initiation). I personally feel this class should NOT be streamlined for the less skilled as I enjoy having the edge over others (who would not?).

 

What can be done to help improve this class? Well I dont feel anything needs to be done to be honest. Its tough for me to say because while I'd like to be the 1v1 king, I dont think we are or should be. We are however near the top of the list on dps king but from what I've seen, powertechs are actually capable of beating us. Possibly the same with Operatives as well. I'd note that both those classes from what I've read/heard seem to have a slight advantage over their counterparts, vanguards and scoundrels.

 

Hope this was somewhat informative.

 

 

I Call shenanigans... Good Sir

[All_Under_Heaven]

My sentinel is lvl 30 and has the Watchman spec. It has gotten harder to successfully kill mobs

 

Pretty much the same situation here. Mine is 35, and since the middle of Aldaraan, it has just taken more and more time to finish quests and kill mob packs. Currently Watchman spec, and had to swtich from Kira to Doc just to get enough heals to not have Introspect after every single pack.

 

I shelved my Sentinel until the ability delays are fixed.

[Renlotho]

Rig is not the problem. It is their server if anything. Only reason I am not combat because of the server side lag and attack animation not actually executing. I run a rendering machine Overclock 2700k on Water. 32 gigs of ram, Crossfire 6950 HD Sapphire Toxic and I am OC to a stable of 5.0 ghz.

 

Connection? Naw, if 20 mb down 6 up on average is my bad then they need to talk to other games how to increase their serverside lag issues. Really do think combat is the most difficult tree to play but most rewarding in pvp.

 

Combat gives me the feeling of controlling a 2 v 1 or 1 v 1 fight alot more. Fix the lag or get rid of the silly animations for now.

 

And for the love of god do something with the RNG Champ bags. Sents/Mara are more reliant on a high end main hand then any other class.

 

Ha! Funny you should mention a mainland. That's my one orange item. The rest are champ or rakata/columi. I have two rakata weapons sitting unassembled in vault main and off hand but currently the rakata sabers are garbage due to messed up mods and hilts. When in the hell are they going to fix end game loot (eg rakata) and boss drops (Soa)?

[Superawesomerman]

We are reliant on cooldowns for defense but not offense.

 

Which generally means that survival takes a lot of work compared to, say, sages (hi bubble)

 

But sents are going to be downright overpowered when they fix lag issues and stuttering.

 

We'll trash any class with a castbar.

 

I will say this ... A naga helps immmmmeeeensely in dealing with 9340195 keybinds. Bartender would help i

a lot, too.

[Toggles]

@topic: Yes, they are.

 

Pure DPS classes being UP happens a lot. Devs often fear of them being OP so they tone them down and don't realize that now healers and tanks can output more than them. However, I hear JKs in general need help... dunno as my guardian is only 17.

[JustinxDuff]

If played correctly Maras/Sents are not UP. Edited January 24, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[Toggles]

If played correctly Maras/Sents are not UP.

 

Hey look, another 'l2p' comment.

 

Have you played other jobs? Because I have and none of them have the power issues that Sents have. I'm not talking about PvP and capabilities of killing other characters. Of course good UP players will beat bad OP players... well unless the game's balance is non existent anyway. This isn't about "Fred can beat Joe", this is about balance and that Sents are way out of balance with a few other classes.

 

But hey, keep trolling out those l2p comment, it's not like I was an accomplished warden who could solo 3+ man content or a NIN and BLU tank who tanked things better than ezmode tanks. Obviously I just don't know how to play MMOs, especially the 'advanced' jobs(which I always flock towards), along with every other Sent here.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Toggles

[babiegirlla]

I think the problem is it`s such a struggle playing in a 8 enemy warzone, that staying attatched to your primary target is incredibly tedius, and makes your damage seem terrible because you are on someone then right after, stunned, cc`d, rooted, slowed, destroyed by a built in CL slow, tracer spammed, sniped.

[SarimRune]

Here's the thing, I'm not an expert player, not do I want to become one.

 

I play PVE pretty much and I tend to feel weak.

 

I was teamed with a Consular and he was hitting for way more damage than I was. He was DPS speced and so am I (Watchman).

 

I believe he's got some longer cooldowns, but for a pure DPS character, you need some way to destroy normal/strong quickly. His survivability seemed better than me and his damage seemed better than me. Now maybe with a damage tracker, we would discover that my burns are doing more than his burst damage. However, I'm just saying how I feel. And I feel weak in comparison.

 

Also, the BH class makes me feel like a joke.

 

But I don't want to be all doom and gloom. I'm lvl 41 and enjoying the game. I can take on an Elite. That's great. My BH friend can take on two Elites at once. Something that I cannot possibly do.

 

There are a lot of little things that they could do to fix things and I'm a little surprised that in several patches, they've attempt nothing.

 

I'm going to get to lvl 50 before they change anything. And that's a bit of a shame because I wanted to feel more powerful in the journey of my character story rather than maybe someday in the future.

[DralenBrand]

Hey look, another 'l2p' comment.

 

Have you played other jobs? Because I have and none of them have the power issues that Sents have. I'm not talking about PvP and capabilities of killing other characters. Of course good UP players will beat bad OP players... well unless the game's balance is non existent anyway. This isn't about "Fred can beat Joe", this is about balance and that Sents are way out of balance with a few other classes.

 

But hey, keep trolling out those l2p comment, it's not like I was an accomplished warden who could solo 3+ man content or a NIN and BLU tank who tanked things better than ezmode tanks. Obviously I just don't know how to play MMOs, especially the 'advanced' jobs(which I always flock towards), along with every other Sent here.

 

^This.

 

First, I do well with my combat-sentinel, but I work MUCH harder to get the same level of pwnage than with other classes. I should not have to be a hardcore, skilled player to have fun with the sentinel. Even being able to play my sentinel effectively, I can understand why newer players are struggling. Just because I can overcome the hurdles does NOT mean that the hurdles do not exist. Folks should not have to scour the internet for tips and gear just perfectly to see their sentinels perform on a par with other classes. That is not balance.

 

Second, a dual-wielding sentinel should not be the most difficult class to play in a SW themed game. It has the broadest appeal (arguably), and so it needs to be an accessible class to less experienced/skilled players.

 

Lastly, I am tired of all the "L2P" posts. It is easy to be condescending and say "learn to play," but not all of us who have learned to play need to make others feel bad in order to make ourselves feel good. MANY sentinel players are struggling (that is clear from the sheer number of players posting to that effect), and that is an issue that the devs need to be aware of and consider, even if it isn't one that directly causes the more skilled players any grief. There are many different skill-level-players in TOR, and even the weakest of them paid to play this game.

 

People come here to these forums to discuss the game and get help, and not to hear how easy it is for more skilled players. When folks say they are struggling, that is not the time to boast or kick them while they are down. Some of us are great players and manage to shrug off a lot of issues that will plague others. Instead of telling them it is easy if you do it right, how about some constructive advice?

 

 

I do realize that this thread is asking whether there is a consensus that sentinels are underpowered, so some of the "L2P" posts are simply intended as votes, but it is possible to express an opinion on that topic without condescending.

 

For instance: no, I do not think there is a consensus that sentinels are UP. I think there is a consensus that some players feel the class if fine, while others feel it is extremely UP. I also do not think many people feel the class is OP. The truth is probably in the middle: sentinels are not extremely UP, but they do need some attention. One's spec seems to make a lot of difference in this regard.

 

 

[HiroAyami]

I've recently hit the 40 Mark with my Sentinel, specc'd into each of the three tree's and hit up PvP. I enjoyed it. I did however, work harder than ever to perform up to par (IMO at least).

 

I've run it pretty hard for the last four days, coming up with the following:

 

 

Huttball is... not fun.

 

- Sure, you're a receiver. That's a great strategy until the other teams defenders realize three people kiting to kill you, even at the sacrifice of one or two, nullifies your ability to participate in... the ball aspect of the game. Lacking defense, you can't escape three guys well. I'm not amazing at PvP either, I'd say I'm good, but not good enough of a Sentinel player to take on three decent opponents.

 

- Defend, gank, kill! Sure. I can do this, but really, I enjoyed Huttball on every other class I've played, I've been able to y'know, participate with the ball even when the other team didn't suck. It feels kind of bad getting ported into a map with the undertone of "playing a game" when you're just doing the same thing, killing people, and ultimately ignoring the objective.

 

 

Sentinels could really use as Combat Focus skill.

 

- It's small, but on my Guardian this skill has made Focus a really manageable resource. Sentinels, as a pure DPS class lacking this skill is weak and a bit odd.

 

 

Game has too many CC's, not enough breakers.

 

- This has been outlined many times, but on a Sentinel, it's just far too noticeable. I can't stealth to escape, I have a break that I need to use selectively, and people know this.

 

- When I spend half of a PvP match stunned and respawning, I get frustrated. Sure I end the match with a + K/D ratio, that tickles my gamer fancy, but it sure feels like a gigantic waste of time PvPing when my gameplay consists of doing nothing and getting annoyed. Sure, I can "calm down" and "take it easy" but really, I like PvP, it's not my fault I'd rather play the game than stand around.

 

 

The Class has it’s niches the same as any other.

 

- Complaints and issues aside Sentinels have their place. We hit, we run. Call it scavenging, whatever. If you pick and choose your targets you’re going to be a beast. Sure, you didn’t solo that guy, but you’re still helping out.

 

- The Class is capable of 1v1, but while a pair of lightsabers denotes “duelist” to most of us, BioWare must have missed that. You can totally aim to 1v1 targets, but you’re not going to be as effective as you could be, at least that’s what I’ve been feeling.

Edited January 25, 2012 by HiroAyami

[Vaxmand]

No they aren't.

 

Do people need to L2P? Yes they do.

[Dagimpster]

No they aren't.

 

Do people need to L2P? Yes they do.

are they under powered no... do people need to L2p not really... once shuttering is fixed i think most qq will go away.

 

till then dont say its a l2p issue and not help people out..

 

 

 

 

I play watchmen, if i have a healer with me we are unstoppable, if i am solo i can win most 2v1 unless both out gear me by alot.. while learning i say do watchmen its easier to learn since it self heals

[nschlan]

No they aren't.

 

Do people need to L2P? Yes they do.

 

Agreed. If you have more than half a brain it's actually one of the best classes. We don't always get top damage because we have little AoE (unless we're focus spec). However, our single target damage is amazing. I have had no trouble in any WZs that weren't team issues. I can 1v1 anything easily (except operatives, but even then I still have a decent chance). Our mobility is a big plus compared to ranged classes because we aren't turrets. We have to move, yes (I know, so difficult for some) but we only have 2 skills that can be interrupted, and they aren't even staple PvP skills, whereas if someone's sitting on a ranged class, ranged loses a lot of dps.