How to fix PVP: Remove Expertise

[REiiGN]

I hate warzones to death because people would queue for that just for some valor or commendations and not actually try to get the win. Now my lvl 50 char sucks because he has full PvP gear but i get steamrolled because i can't find a group to roll with in WZ.

 

Now, on Ilum, I have a lot of fun just gather people for an Ops against Rep players. My server is Grand Master Zym and we don't usually have a ton of people in Ilum anyways. We can usually fight equal mobs of Republics so we have great battles.

 

I know the whole thing went down yesterday, but none of that happened on my server. I still think we outnumber the republic but its a PvE server so not a lot of PvPers there.

 

I do agree that expertise is lame. PvP gear has been great though, especially when you can't finish a HM due to bugs.

[romanchong]

The dilemma of end game content has plagued all MMOs. So an easy way to address this is by making people grind for better gear. But that in turn makes it unpleasant for many causal players to a point that they cancel their sub. Life cycle of all MMOs these days.

[Zangi]

Solution:

All PvP Gear on all levels have Expertise that adds up to 10%.

 

To make PvP Gear less viable for PvE, PvP Gear has 5-10%(?) lower stats then equal tier PvE Gear.

 

And there we have it...

PvP Gear is BiS for PvP and is gimped in PvE thanks to gear stats being lower.

PvE Gear is BiS for PvE and is gimped in PvP thanks to having no Expertise.

 

BiowareEA is happy cause you can still grindprogress into better stuff.

 

Everyone is happy, but that is a fallacy since people will always complain, thinking that even though their clearly specified purpose PvP Gear gives them a raw +10% damage/defense/heals in PvP... the stats of their gear should also be the same for PvE content.

[Armethious]

Solution:

All PvP Gear on all levels have Expertise that adds up to 10%.

 

To make PvP Gear less viable for PvE, PvP Gear has 5-10%(?) lower stats then equal tier PvE Gear.

 

And there we have it...

PvP Gear is BiS for PvP and is gimped in PvE thanks to gear stats being lower.

 

There is already a bigger hit than what you are asking for. If you compare the armoring mod of PvP gear to PvE gear, the armoring mod of PvE gear will have 30% MORE endurance and about 90% MORE of the primary stat. They do not need to gimp it anymore.

 

 

PvE Gear is BiS for PvE and is gimped in PvP thanks to having no Expertise.

 

BiowareEA is happy cause you can still grindprogress into better stuff.

 

Everyone is happy, but that is a fallacy since people will always complain, thinking that even though their clearly specified purpose PvP Gear gives them a raw +10% damage/defense/heals in PvP... the stats of their gear should also be the same for PvE content.

 

Unfortunately due to the significant difference in endurance and primary stat on the armoring mod, PvE gear ends up being the best PvP gear most of the time. The expertise rating does not come close to making up for this loss once you get past about 5% or so. I run with a few people that do very well in PvP and have less than 100 expertise rating. For this to become true, they would need to either significantly bump up the effectiveness of expertise or at least remove the diminishing returns.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Armethious

[Zangi]

There is already a bigger hit than what you are asking for. If you compare the armoring mod of PvP gear to PvE gear, the armoring mod of PvE gear will have 30% MORE endurance and about 90% MORE of the primary stat. They do not need to gimp it anymore.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately due to the significant difference in endurance and primary stat on the armoring mod, PvE gear ends up being the best PvP gear most of the time. The expertise rating does not come close to making up for this loss once you get past about 5% or so. I run with a few people that do very well in PvP and have less than 100 expertise rating. For this to become true, they would need to either significantly bump up the effectiveness of expertise or at least remove the diminishing returns.

 

 

PvP Gear: 100 'main' stat? 100 endurance?

PvE Gear. 190 'main' stat? 130 endurance?

 

I'm pretty sure the main stat difference qualifies for a 45-ish% deduction in stats.... which is going a bit overboard...

 

I'm still for a flat +10% Expertise on all levels of PvP gear... but, yea... lowering the deduction to even 20% on the main stat will go a long way....

[kottonmouth]

Get rid of expertise. Exclusionary stats are 1 thing that could get me to leave this game.

[Zherill]

Hey BioWare, IMO myself and a quite a bit of friends, all level 50, agree that the best way to fix this problem is to get rid of expertise completely.

 

The only reason why the game is so "broken" in terms of PVP right now, and you probably already know, is because a huge majority of Sith hit 50 way before the republic and have farmed republic since then. They have a huge advantage with expertise to a point where republic just can't keep up. Whoever got the expertise first acheived the momentum to keep the lead. They keep winning becauase of their gear, and keep getting better gear, leaving the republic in the dust.

 

Now, if you remove expertise, what happens? EVERYONE will be balanced, the game will be changed from nubs owning because of gear to nubs eventually owning by become better players. PVP will be a game based on skill and strategy.

 

Look at the lower brackets without 50s, its an even game. Republic and Sith have even chances to win. Some friends who aren't 50 love the pvp now that they don't have to play against OP expertise farmed fatties.

 

If you don't want to remove expertise, atleast lower its arrogantly gigantic advantage over players who don't have it. Its not fair for us players, who started the game late, to lose to someone else who isn't better than us. MORE GEARED YES, but better? I say not.

 

The only thing that will happen if you remove expertise is that people will start pvping in full raid gear. Fresh 50's will STILL get stomped into the dirt by established 50's AND it will force pvp players into raiding. It's a gear based mmo and the endgame bracket will only be fair once you hit end game gear. Removing expertise won't fix the problem it will only make a new one.

 

A better solution would be to allow CRAFTERS to make entry level 50 bracket pvp gear that is about the equivalent to cent gear. That with the changes they are putting in to make champion gear easier to get would remove the feeling of living out a prison shower scene.

[vrok-]

I play Republic. My main has almost full battlemaster gear with over 12% expertise. I hit 50 on my alt last weekend. Doing only PvP weeklies and dailies, with no extra grinding, it now has 6% expertise and the rest of the slots filled with normal daily stuff. I roll PUGs most of the time.

 

I have no issues playing my alt instead of main. It's at least as powerful overall and there's a very good reason for it. Actually there's more than one. The first is that I play tanks and healers, good players that do these things are extremely hard to find in this game. Filling that niche, even as a fresh 50, does more for your team and chances of winning than being good with a DPS class in battlemaster gear. Another reason I will outline below.

 

Unless you're facing a coordinated premade, in which case you will lose badly regardless, all supposed imbalance issues can be solved by playing better. At least 90% of my losses in PUGs on both characters results from bad players and not bad gear. People not using chat, not defending, not interrupting, not healing, not using guard/taunts, etc. The real advantage to being an experienced and geared high valor rank player is knowing how to play.

 

In fact, there's even battlemaster "premades" (4/8 isn't a real premade) that can't manage to win huttball effectively and lose to full PUGs with a couple of experienced but lesser geared players. Now you'll say that huttball isn't real PvP, but the thing is, in this game it is. It's actually the most skill demanding warzone by far. Play huttball.

 

To sum up, I'm not saying battlemasters don't have a gear advantage, they do, but it's exaggerated greatly and in most cases can actually be solved by simply just playing better, which is MUCH more satisfying. Just like how the disadvantage of playing something other than terran in Starcraft 2 can be solved by simply playing better!

 

I guess this is just a really long L2P post but I was bored...

Edited February 4, 2012 by vrok-

[LordCrow]

thats silly idea... what would be differnece between pvp gear and pve then? pvp for noobs who just need time to grind it? and then farm pve gear? retarded... and actually one of points of author of this topic was that republic reach 50 lev much later..... why? they have one hands? or are blind? I dont get it.... thats most silly reason I have ever seen...

 

of course warzones looks really ****** right now when one better geared team farm another.... but...this is the way to go at the beginning. think rather about lowering differences between pvp tiers.

 

expertise must stay in this form or another... there must be one stat at least which will distinguish pvp gear for farmers from pve gear(for another type of farmers ^^).

Edited February 4, 2012 by LordCrow

[Airees]

I started the game playing a merc and has since levelled a commando to 50. Not counting expertise my merc does 20+% more damage with his abilities and has like 12% more crit, while the expertise difference is only 6%.

 

Removing expertise will only increase the damage/crit difference making the "nerf" close to neglectible. The problem isn't expertise, it's the fact that the difference between lvl 50 introductory gear and the somewhat easily attainable is tier 2 gear is HUGE. I've mentioned this in another thread, but basically the difference between full 50 blues and full 50 columi/champion is the same as the difference between lvl 40 and lvl 50 gear.

[Malice_Nihilim]

How to fix Expertise - Remove players

[knottedbyfear]

OP,

 

I think you are spot on with this comment. Expertise is screwing up the game and was only carried over because "WoW has it." Wow added it to their game to prevent raiders from bringing their gear into the pvp arena and vice versa. it is a cop-out stat and honestly just sucks. I want balanced pvp that is fun from day one when you play it. We don't need another game "exactly like WoW" anyway.

 

10-49 pvp in this game is decent. 50 pvp is an exercise in frustration. I came to this game hoping for balanced pvp and what I got is a game where new characters are supposed to feed themselves to the established nobility for week after week. You know what? If it takes 4 weeks of constant playing before PvP is fun, most people aren't going to play it and the game will die.

 

Watch the flames that start in this thread from all the BMs who really are doing what gankers do pwning lowbies in open world pvp. The just pretend they have more class than that.

[Knifewrench]

The title is wrong. It should read "How to kill your subscriptions: Remove Expertise" See signature if that confuses you. Edited February 4, 2012 by Knifewrench

[RealAeiouy]

From many of the threads posted here it seems many players have no pvp expertise at all.

[Razot]

Its actually pathetic having expertise and gear progression in both PVP and PVE in this game when 1-49 we have an awesome orange gear system.

 

We should be trying to get better mods and get to pick and choose what stats we want instead of the crap system thats in place now. Its like the whole end game for both PVP and PVE at 50 feels like a totally different game and that really screwes up the feeling of progression of immersion.

 

I love open world PVP, expetise and gear progression always kill open world pvp, well it kills every type of pvp or pve when you devide the player base putting them in a position that you have to do one or the other the end result will just be longer queue times and people not finding groups for PVE. Then we end up with cross server BS, dual spec (wich only helps hybrids as DPS classes gain nothing from it) and nothing but QQ from these progression types as they have a very small pool of players to chose from.

 

Just a thought.. ever wonder how many WoW PVErs never got into PVP cause of the PVP stat? I know you WF zergers don't care about getting PVP cause all you do is wait in a queue and let bioware serve it up to you, but world PVP is only good when a large portion of a servers player base takes part.

 

Imo its just vocal minority on both sides playing the gear arms race the rest of us really dont care as long as we get to fight or run the raids if thats your thing. I would also guess that WoW was the first MMO for many so they have not been in other games that didnt use magic stats.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Razot

[Avarras]

All the PvE gear in the world isn't going to make you invincible in this game. Never played Wow, but this isn't that game. I could beat lvl 49s in high 40s armor when I was 40, sporting lvl 33 armor (lvl'd past PvE content). Raiders won't be steamrolling anyone in TOR. Expertise has no purpose in this game. The only way it would makes sense is if ALL PvP armor at ALL levels had it. That way the PvP gears could have inferior PvE stats, but still perfrom better in PvP. That was the intent and I believe that's how it was in beta. ALL levels had PvP expertise gear. Then at the end of beta they should reoved it and made it 50 only.

 

But if only lvl 50 has it, it has no purpose other than to create the 50 bracket and carrot on a stick for the hardcore. Most people I PvP with just want to have fun competing against other players. I actually enjoy PvP for what it is. Not grinding. I love the 1-49 bracket and I'm dreading the 50 bracket as it's going to absolutely ruin PvP for me. It's really messed up because now I have to start a new character just to enjoy PvP. I should not enjoy PvP more at level 13 than lvl 50. This game is completely absurd.

 

 

The reason you have no trouble with lvl 33 gear at lvl 40 vs a lvl 49 is because of how the bolster system works. If your stats don't exceed a certain level you get bolstered to those stats. You won't exceed them until you are level 50.

 

Expertise is 100% needed. Apparently none of you played WoW in vanilla. In order to compete against raiders in PvP, you had to PvE, which ended up even more time consuming than PvPing to get gear (And no the High Warlord / Grand Marshal Gear wasn't good enough to compete with raiding gear, I myself was a HWL and once AQ came out you pretty much had to PvE).

 

Without Expertise people would just PvP to get raid gear because it would be faster to get it that way. Raiders would complain that they hate PvP and that they shouldn't have to PvP to get the gear (happened many times in WoW). Expertise limits the stats so that it isn't ideal gear for raiding and also makes it so raiding gear isn't ideal for PvP.

 

With all that said I do think that the damage bonus should be taken off of expertise so you don't get a double-whammy against an expertise geared player. That way it only reduces damage taken and not reduces taken + increases done. Healing buff should stay due to 30% PvP healing debuff.

 

I'm sorry that you are having trouble against full Expertise geared players. I myself am not fully geared and can have the same trouble at times, but you have to remember the type of game you are playing. This game is an MMO. MMO's are purely based of progression, always have been and always will be. If you don't enjoy this, then maybe it is time to move on to another genre.

 

TLDR; expertise is very much needed, just with a few tweaks.

 

Amen brother