Speciesism in the SWTOR Sith Empire? It doesn't seem to fit.

[Sai-to]

Well they care they just might not be in your face about it. In the Revan book the one Darth lord Scourge was working for (Nyriss I think) referred to the humans as as lesser species when talking about a fellow dark council member who was a human. The Sith purebloods do look down on other races and non-force sensitives

 

 

That's very true. Sith Purebloods (the species) do look down on other species.

[usmarshal]

The Empire is not racist in the manner of humans being better than aliens, their racism is based on rather or not you have Sith blood. In truth there are no full members of the Sith species left because of heavy interbreeding with the Dark Jedi exiles, but those who have high amount of Sith blood and retain red skin and other Sith features are at the very top of the pyramid while those that appear human but still have Sith blood are immediately below them. Anyone with no Sith blood is basically considered a lesser being.

[KitRoakr]

Again this has gravitated to the Sith species. I was not speaking specifically of them. During questing, I have had multiple human Imperial officers specifically state that the Empire considers all non-humans to be of lesser value; that humans are the superior species. Humans. Not Sith Purebloods. Not Human Sith mixes. Humans. That is what I was getting at.

 

Not all are like that either. Some Imperial officers come across with something like it doesn’t matter what species you are. If you are good at your job, then you are of high value to him/her. But the ones that have claimed human superiority portray the idea as official Imperial policy. And that doesn’t add up.

 

I see the arguments about the Empire being modeled after the Nazis. That is true with a few qualifying points.

1) That was Palpatine’s empire.

2) Palpatine’s Empire and SWTOR’s Empire are not the same Empire.

3) They are ruled very differently.

a. SWTOR - Ruled by an Emperor and a Sith Councel.

b. Movies – Ruled by a single Emperor with absolute Power.

4) They are ruled by different kinds of Sith.

a. SWTOR - Many Sith that have many at the same level and many levels of leadership.

b. Movies – Only two. One is the Master and one is (in effect) the slave. Just that in this case it is intended that the slave eventually rise up and kill the master.

5) Palpatine’s Sith would see the SWTOR Sith as weak because they pollute themselves with infighting and are open to watering down by weaker Sith ganging up and overpowering the strong.

 

So… That being said, modeling SWTORs Empire after George Lucas’s Empire doesn’t work. Also, I am not saying that the storyline it totally broken. To run into ‘speciesism’ (yes, I kind of did make that word up) make perfect sense. What I am questioning is why are some of the NPCs portraying it as ‘official’ policy of the Empire?

Edited January 25, 2012 by KitRoakr

[SkartanKressh]

Humans constantly trashing on other species annoys me, so I do my best to remind them who they answer too. They probably just do it to feel better about themselves being underlings to us purebloods. I am a pureblood, yet I am not so discrimanatory towards most species, humans just think to much of themselves.

[Ausstig]

You know the really ironic thing is, according to the official Atlas, the 'Human-High' culture of the Empire was already part of Core world traditions, so the Republic should be the racist ones no the Empire.

 

But as people have said, must take after movies, need to overly evil, ect.

[MDav]

Again this has gravitated to the Sith species. I was not speaking specifically of them. During questing, I have had multiple human Imperial officers specifically state that the Empire considers all non-humans to be of lesser value; that humans are the superior species. Humans. Not Sith Purebloods. Not Human Sith mixes. Humans. That is what I was getting at.

 

 

The basic thing to understand is that most or many of the humans believe they are the dominate species while the remaining Sith believe they are the best. So really you have two species on top who view all other species as below them (unless one of them has enough force power to earn respect) but who at the same time look down on each other.

[Calithlin]

The reason that HUMANS believe they are above all other ALIENS (NOT Purebloods) is because 97% of HUMANS in the Empire can trace their ancestry back to PUREBLOODS.

 

ONLY HUMANS can trace their ancestry back in this way, and thus some HUMANS have convinced themselves or been misinformed that HUMANITY is synonymous with their lofty positions within the Empire.

 

At the root, it's about their proximity to Purebloods -- but that evolved into a humanist ideal over time as alliances were made and HUMANS belonging to the Empire and Republic became indistinguishable.

 

Someone can't tell how much slight Pureblood ancestry a human has by looking, so they can't spend the time finding out -- they just go the speciesist route.

 

You wont find a SINGLE instance of HUMANS being speciesist against a PUREBLOOD, because they all know better (minus instances in the Sith Inquisitor story, because Purebloods were made playable for them later, and they are still slaves).

[Tanet]

To the OP try playing a sith pureblood character and tell me if you encounter the same treatment from imperials.

[Darth_Romana]

First I would like to say that I am enjoying this game. I am playing the game with some old friends from Star Wars Galaxies and some friends that are local (fellow college students and neighbors). I also would like to thank BioWare for keeping the Star Wars gaming alive. I am a huge Star Wars fan and love to enjoy the many aspects of its story.

 

With that said, I would like to point out some thing that I see as a continuity and lore error. These are just how I see it and I do not want to pretend that I am some sort of authority on Star Wars, but I am a fan that has my own point of view.

 

First, Imperial speciesism (not racism). Now… I know that the Empire was very discriminatory against non-human species in the movies and the Empire era Expanded Universe, but it seems to me that this ideal does not fit in this storyline period. Here is why:

 

So... In this period, the Sith species (Sith Purebloods) are not yet extinct. These people are the origin of the Sith name and when combined with the Dark Jedi outcasts became what is to eventually become the Sith as we know them. So at this point in the timeline, the Sith are a mix of humans, sith pure bloods, and other species. Also, the Sith are the rulers of the Empire (hence The Sith Empire). But the Empire discriminates against non-humans? If I were a Sith pure blood Sith Lord, I think I might be pretty pissed to find one of my minions saying that I am beneath him because I am not a human.

 

What do you think?

 

If you read the Revan novel then you'd find out that 300 years prior to TOR, that whilst Humans are treated as 1st class citizens of the Empire, they are considered 'lesser' by Sith Purebloods - Darth Nyriss and Scourge refered to humans such as Darth Xedrix in a very derogatory manor, despite him being on the Dark Council.

 

Times changed by the Cold War after allot of Sith Pureboods had died in the Great Galactic War, Humans became virtually as respected as Purebloods, at a time where they were bolstering their numbers with 'aliens'.

[Cartumandua]

You know the really ironic thing is, according to the official Atlas, the 'Human-High' culture of the Empire was already part of Core world traditions, so the Republic should be the racist ones no the Empire.

 

But as people have said, must take after movies, need to overly evil, ect.

 

The republic are racist too.

 

One of the early story lines on the republic side is about humans seizing the land of non-humans.

[MDav]

The republic are racist too.

 

One of the early story lines on the republic side is about humans seizing the land of non-humans.

 

Well the Republic itself isn't racist (speciesist) but there are racists in the Republic. This is the difference between Republic and Empire because while racist things will happen in the Republic the Imperial government and society is built up on Specieism and subjugation

[DarthMoord]

That does not make sense. It is not the Sith that are discriminitory. It was Palpatine. And he passed that on to the Empire.

 

It wasn't, though. And he didn't. Palpatine didn't care about whether someone was an alien or not, in fact he didn't care much about anyone to begin with seeing them all as tools to be used. What happened was Palpatine coopted a number of humanocentric organizations into COMPNOR and took advantage of the anti-alien sentiments following the Clone Wars (where the vast majority of the Republic Forces were humans, even disregarding clones, and the Seperatists were majority alien). Palpatine was quick to dispense with the notions of the Human High Culture whenever it was convenient.

[Kharnis]

First I would like to say that I am enjoying this game. I am playing the game with some old friends from Star Wars Galaxies and some friends that are local (fellow college students and neighbors). I also would like to thank BioWare for keeping the Star Wars gaming alive. I am a huge Star Wars fan and love to enjoy the many aspects of its story.

 

With that said, I would like to point out some thing that I see as a continuity and lore error. These are just how I see it and I do not want to pretend that I am some sort of authority on Star Wars, but I am a fan that has my own point of view.

 

First, Imperial speciesism (not racism). Now… I know that the Empire was very discriminatory against non-human species in the movies and the Empire era Expanded Universe, but it seems to me that this ideal does not fit in this storyline period. Here is why:

 

So... In this period, the Sith species (Sith Purebloods) are not yet extinct. These people are the origin of the Sith name and when combined with the Dark Jedi outcasts became what is to eventually become the Sith as we know them. So at this point in the timeline, the Sith are a mix of humans, sith pure bloods, and other species. Also, the Sith are the rulers of the Empire (hence The Sith Empire). But the Empire discriminates against non-humans? If I were a Sith pure blood Sith Lord, I think I might be pretty pissed to find one of my minions saying that I am beneath him because I am not a human.

 

What do you think?

 

If you were a Sith Pureblood, you wouldn't be pretty pissed to find one of your minions saying you were beneath him because you weren't human. You wouldn't be pissed because that wouldn't happen at all. It's an impossible situation. The Sith are at the top of the food chain, with the humans second; a very close second, but second nonetheless.

[KitRoakr]

The basic thing to understand is that most or many of the humans believe they are the dominate species while the remaining Sith believe they are the best. So really you have two species on top who view all other species as below them (unless one of them has enough force power to earn respect) but who at the same time look down on each other.

 

Interesting way to put it. I think you have a good point. Thank you!

[IvamAkorahil]

First I would like to say that I am enjoying this game. I am playing the game with some old friends from Star Wars Galaxies and some friends that are local (fellow college students and neighbors). I also would like to thank BioWare for keeping the Star Wars gaming alive. I am a huge Star Wars fan and love to enjoy the many aspects of its story.

 

With that said, I would like to point out some thing that I see as a continuity and lore error. These are just how I see it and I do not want to pretend that I am some sort of authority on Star Wars, but I am a fan that has my own point of view.

 

First, Imperial speciesism (not racism). Now… I know that the Empire was very discriminatory against non-human species in the movies and the Empire era Expanded Universe, but it seems to me that this ideal does not fit in this storyline period. Here is why:

 

So... In this period, the Sith species (Sith Purebloods) are not yet extinct. These people are the origin of the Sith name and when combined with the Dark Jedi outcasts became what is to eventually become the Sith as we know them. So at this point in the timeline, the Sith are a mix of humans, sith pure bloods, and other species. Also, the Sith are the rulers of the Empire (hence The Sith Empire). But the Empire discriminates against non-humans? If I were a Sith pure blood Sith Lord, I think I might be pretty pissed to find one of my minions saying that I am beneath him because I am not a human.

 

What do you think?

 

empire discriminates against anything non human race, non sith-pureblood

 

pureblood>humans>the other scum

[Zekid]

Since the Sith (species) are extinct in the film timeline having Sidious xenophobic to all other races makes sense and doesn't contradict what is going on here. I imagine if the Sith were still around in the film timeline (obviously it would change EVERYTHING, but lets pretend it didnt change much) sidious would not place them in the same box as Twi-leks and all the other races. Making a comparison here doesnt make sense, they are to different empires set hugely apart in time and with the Sith not existing at all around sidious's time.

[Tepetkhet]

So while I was questing around and following my Sith Inquisitor's storyline (she's a Twi'lek, by the way, and YES she is constantly reminded of what rubbish she is - only begrudgingly acknowledged because she is Force-sensitive and survived her trials)...

Came across Naga Sadow and, being unfamiliar with a lot of the background lore and characters, I looked him up. Turns out this VERY POWERFUL ancient Sith Lord who was around during the first Sith Empire was...part human. Creepy dude, though...but then, I think most of the Dark Lords of the Sith were.

 

Let's see...

Going down the list:

OH and I suppose I'll hide this all in a spoiler tag, although this is all PAST.

 

 

Dathka Graush - Sith (not really a Dark Lord of the Sith yet, but a pure Sith King).

Ajunta Pall - "Near-Human", Dark Jedi that ditched those smug Jedi and took off to Korriban to form the Sith Empire, thus becoming the first official Dark Lord of the Sith.

Darth Andeddu - "Humanoid". First Darth, apparently. No idea what race he was since most traces of his existence have been wiped out.

Tulak Hord - Hey, we know this guy! Only mentions he's male, no real hint at his race.

Marka Ragnos - Sith half-breed (half human).

Naga Sadow - Sith-human hybrid.

Ludo Kressh - Sith-human hybrid (mix of Dark Jedi and Sith).

Shar Dakhan - Sith.

 

Freedon Nadd - Human. Was an Old Republic Jedi.

Exar Kun - Human. Another fallen Jedi Knight.

Ulic Qel-Droma - Human. But...it was a plot. Sorta. >_>

Darth Revan - Human. Hey, we know this guy, too!

Darth Malak - Human.

Darth Traya - Human Female, aka Kreia the Jedi.

Darth Sion - Human.

Darth Nihilus - Human.

 

 

That brings us up to the Reformed Sith Empire.

 

Anyway, most of the old Sith Lords were human - hardly any pure Sith in there...interesting, I think.

 

-T.

[CaptainReath]

This is a mental model Ive constructed, based on my experiences from leveling up my 50 bounty hunter. It becomes apparent that the term "the devil you know is better then devil you don't" rings true with the empire when it comes to social status.

 

race names are listed in descending order based on social status

 

 

 

 

The master race: Sith

Any race from the commoner races can join the master race if they are force sensitive and can complete their romp through Korriban

 

Emperor

Dark council

Darths < All "Sith"

Lords

Apprentices

 

Since it was the true original Sith that open the door to the powers of the darkside,

by tradition anyone who becomes powerful in the force is an honorary Sith by

extension.

 

 

 

 

The commoner races: Human or highly humanoid

 

Humans, Pruebloods, Zabrak and Cyborgs <all seem to be on the same level

 

Chiss

 

Chiss seem to be going through a "new guy" hazing phase with the empire. In one instance I remember a Chiss commander on Hoth distinctly voice concern over whether or not his subordinates would respect his authority.

 

Twi'lek and Rattataki

 

Both fit the niche of former slave races with Twi'lek women probably being discriminated

the most. (It seems like theirs a mandate that every bar in the galaxy have at least one Twi'lek dancer)

 

 

 

 

Slave and inferior races

 

The races here would probably never see the inside of an imperial courtroom and would not be able to join the sith, regardless if they can wield the force. The sith empire also seems to have a destine for anything that's not more or less humanoid.

 

Cathar "a few more hides and I'll have a coat"

Jawas "The force is not the provenance of... jawas"

Selonians "We are going to have fun with you, rat"

 

(if anymore come to mind i'll edit this part)

[JoyProtocol]

I can actually help this one a little bit, coming from the Imperial Agent storyline.

 

Working within the Intelligence in the prologue, you encounter a single alien working inside. When you ask him how did an alien get to work for the Intelligence, he replies that the reason the Empire does not value other species is that they weren't there to build the empire - they don't love it like Humans/Purebloods could.

 

Others can work their way up, but it is significantly harder for them.

[Retoru]

It seems to me that most of you have never actually delved very deep into the lore of the Sith Empire or the Sith Order. If you read the lore in the EU books and novellas you see that xenophobia and humancentric beliefs have always been a part of the Sith Order.

 

Some good things to read would be the Lost Tribe of the Sith series, the Bane trilogy, the Revan novel, Deceived, and Fatal Alliance. Each of these books has some aspect of the species preference that is shown in the game. In fact, in Revan there are scenes where Scourge speaks of the species preference and describes how alien races are worth less than garbage.

 

Bioware didn't just pull this out of their butts or simply co-opt if from Palpatine's Galactic Empire, it's established lore and considered canon unless Lucas himself overrules it since it's in a publication that is approved by Lucas' company.

 

For those who don't know the canon for Star Wars is fairly structured in what is canon and what is inferred or not at all canon. At the top of the list are the movies, they are absolute canon. Directly below that are the things on the official Holonet site, this source sits on the same level as the television media such as Clone Wars. Below that are the novels of the extended universe provided they don't conflict with higher canon sources or newer canon sources (ie: retconned content).

 

This species preference is in the extended universe quite heavily, thus it is canon to the Star Wars lore and unless something is posted on the Holonet or by Lucas himself it's not going to change.

[undeadsithdread]

Again this has gravitated to the Sith species. I was not speaking specifically of them. During questing, I have had multiple human Imperial officers specifically state that the Empire considers all non-humans to be of lesser value; that humans are the superior species. Humans. Not Sith Purebloods. Not Human Sith mixes. Humans. That is what I was getting at.

 

Not all are like that either. Some Imperial officers come across with something like it doesn’t matter what species you are. If you are good at your job, then you are of high value to him/her. But the ones that have claimed human superiority portray the idea as official Imperial policy. And that doesn’t add up.

 

I see the arguments about the Empire being modeled after the Nazis. That is true with a few qualifying points.

1) That was Palpatine’s empire.

2) Palpatine’s Empire and SWTOR’s Empire are not the same Empire.

3) They are ruled very differently.

a. SWTOR - Ruled by an Emperor and a Sith Councel.

b. Movies – Ruled by a single Emperor with absolute Power.

4) They are ruled by different kinds of Sith.

a. SWTOR - Many Sith that have many at the same level and many levels of leadership.

b. Movies – Only two. One is the Master and one is (in effect) the slave. Just that in this case it is intended that the slave eventually rise up and kill the master.

5) Palpatine’s Sith would see the SWTOR Sith as weak because they pollute themselves with infighting and are open to watering down by weaker Sith ganging up and overpowering the strong.

 

So… That being said, modeling SWTORs Empire after George Lucas’s Empire doesn’t work. Also, I am not saying that the storyline it totally broken. To run into ‘speciesism’ (yes, I kind of did make that word up) make perfect sense. What I am questioning is why are some of the NPCs portraying it as ‘official’ policy of the Empire?

 

 

if you read book of the sith palpatine build his empire based on the TOR sith empire from moffs ranks to star destroyers to speciesism.

Edited February 16, 2012 by undeadsithdread

[Erevan_Kindelar]

There are two elements to the "Sith Empire" at the time of the SWTOR game, and the interplay between them is potentially confusing. However, I do feel that the game does a good job of portraying it.

 

First, at the top of the pile/"food chain", you have the Force users. They are set apart from both the civilians within the Empire and also the military/political/industrial structures of the Empire itself. Almost without exception, Force users are referred to as "Sith", and are universally feared/respected by the rest of the Empire.

Within the Force users, there is an implicit caste system that ranks power above all else, but pureblood Sith are considered the "Elite".

 

Beyond the Force users, the Empire is pretty obviously speciesist/racist/sexist - the people you encounter in positions of authority during npc missions are almost universally human males, with females and other species being incidental, subordinates, or your mission targets.

 

I do not have a problem with this from a story-telling perspective, and it does seem to be a conscious design effort by Bioware/Lucasarts to set up the Republic as the open, inclusive, but ultimately corrupt and morally bankrupt society while the Sith Empire is a more xenophobic and closed society, which still has corruption and a lack of morals, but where the corruption is aimed more at accumulation of power and influence than money and personal comfort.

[AscendantOps]

But the Empire discriminates against non-humans? If I were a Sith pure blood Sith Lord, I think I might be pretty pissed to find one of my minions saying that I am beneath him because I am not a human.

'Pure blooded' Sith are considered equal, if not above, baseline Humanity in the Sith Empire as a whole. These two species pile up the intellegentsia and top echelons of Imperial society, especially in the past. Their xenophobic attitude towards aliens is in part due to the fact of Humans and Sith being the only species to lay the foundation for the Reconstituted Sith Empire -- all other species are considered secondary.

[Spartanik]

well you need to understand that other species in the empire were conquered, and enslaved .. so obviously slaves diferent then non slaves. i can see why the snobs.

The origin of the sith order and its lords was backed by slavery.., in fact the title lord of the sith it comes from this. the dark jedi that enslaved the original sith on korriban and became Lords of the sith species. IMHO it makes perfect sense, how the empire handles non humans and non sith.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Spartanik