Why the QQ about Juggs? Our baseline DPS is low but..

[Tierdal]

We are the best TANK.. best in slot gear a Jug mits 15%+ more often than a loltech

 

We have the best coolodown (powertechs cant even TANK revan hardmode foundry because of this)

 

We have amazing utility with intercede and leap which make us hutball gods..not to mention force push and a FREE AOE SNARE

 

I jsut don't see what the QQ about

 

The QQ should be how much DPS TANK spec Powertechs keep from their baseline bounty hunting class

[Sanquind]

People want to see high numbers. Want to be able to kill others. Not just run around and be annoying or take a lot of damage. That's pretty much what the complaining is about.

 

That being said, even Bioware agrees that jugg's damage is a bit low.

[Tierdal]

People want to see high numbers. Want to be able to kill others. Not just run around and be annoying or take a lot of damage. That's pretty much what the complaining is about.

 

That being said, even Bioware agrees that jugg's damage is a bit low.

 

i agree our damage is pathetic

 

i barely ever get the 2.5k crit in immortal

 

but why roll a TANK and complain your crits are low?

[Tierdal]

well?

[steinsgate]

We are the best TANK.

 

First, no we're not.

 

Second, the last time I looked, there are two dps trees available to juggs.

[Gorstog]

First, no we're not.

 

Second, the last time I looked, there are two dps trees available to juggs.

 

And yet itemization dictates damage. Because they decided to use expertise (Which is lame) you basically need 4 sets of gear to fit every possible role.

 

PvP:

 

Tank

Damage

 

PvE

 

Tank

Damage

 

4 complete sets of gear to maximize your effectiveness. You are also far to low of a DPS class to run PvE as a DPS class so you are going to be forced into a tank role. So to do both PvP and PvE you are constantly going to need to respec to be effective using those "Two Damage Trees".

 

A slight reduction to CD's on our current ability set would significantly increase our DPS in PvP encounters and will increase our threat generation on single targets. Also, if they got rid of the stupid "ON weak creatures / But on hard creatures and players language" as it is just a really stupid mechanic.

[Tierdal]

First, no we're not.

 

Second, the last time I looked, there are two dps trees available to juggs.

 

which tank is better?

 

assassin is horrible atm

 

powertech is close with less pure mit and worse cooldowns...

[ZetsumeiKira]

Tanking? Assassin tanking is damn good! And BH/Trooper is so amazing I even request those for smooth HM runs. As a warrior I don't think where even tank capable more like craptastic compared to other tank classes.

[Xanxari]

Tanking? Assassin tanking is damn good! And BH/Trooper is so amazing I even request those for smooth HM runs. As a warrior I don't think where even tank capable more like craptastic compared to other tank classes.

 

 

this and 1000 times this, and still lowbies def. this class! Pffff the number of noobs you want to smack IRL. is.....

[Zhijn]

PT/VG are amazing tanks, awesome aoe, pull target, leap to target, aoe taunt, single taunt. Superio shielding/absorb, superio skill trees, easy range taunt (blasters). And last but probably not last, some CC. All from level 10 and onwards.

 

Where all the videos of juggs ect tanking FP/HM? All i see on JKG/SWJ boards are pvp vids or some screenshot of someone trying to prove he got massive damage at level 50, when all he did was spam "smash" into a bunch of people mindless pvp drones. So lol.

 

Also saying "juggs get awesome around 45-50" is just ignoring the problems 40 levels earlier. And dosnt do this class any good.

 

Good iconic story for the class, i give it that much credit. And pretty easy to solo. And that is as fare as that goes imo. Running around hitting 20 keys to dps/taunt just enough to keep control or build rage/focus in a FP/HM is frustrating and tedious.

 

Iv putt my 38 jugg on hold for now, and begon work on my PT who just got 36. Its undeniable how big the change between these tanks are. Im not even sure anymore if Juggs/knights should be class'd as "tanks".

 

Meh, QQ/Raging done. Back to my PT.

[Hizoka]

where does this low damage BS come from. There are no parsers in game and sorry but if you think seeing the damage done in a warzone means anything then you even missed the fail boat.

 

All the classes were tested for ever a year before most of the forum mouth breathers even got to see them. The devs know what a correctly played class does, if you cannot play the class correctly that doesn't mean the class is low damage it means you are bad at doing damage with it. Not every class is face roll easy mode like a BH, that doesn't make them better DPS it makes them easy mode DPS. Its just really really sad that most players seem to thing faceroll easy - better, when most of the time its the opposite.

[Korevas]

Also, even if we mitigate more often, our tankability can actually be worse because of this. This is because powertech tanking is built around shielding while juggernaut is built around defense.

They are balanced to roughly provide the same mitigation over a given timeframe, which favors powertech because their mitigation will happen more often (for lower amounts) while juggernauts prevent whole attacks instead so they will take bigger chunks if they don't.

 

In the end this comes down to juggernauts taking more spikey damage and powertechs taking more of the same damage over time, so juggers are harder to heal then pts.

 

edit: this is for pve obviously, in pvp neither armor nor defense really do anything useful, so just forget about that.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Korevas

[drkieros]

Also, even if we mitigate more often, our tankability can actually be worse because of this. This is because powertech tanking is built around shielding while juggernaut is built around defense.

They are balanced to roughly provide the same mitigation over a given timeframe, which favors powertech because their mitigation will happen more often (for lower amounts) while juggernauts prevent whole attacks instead so they will take bigger chunks if they don't.

 

In the end this comes down to juggernauts taking more spikey damage and powertechs taking more of the same damage over time, so juggers are harder to heal then pts.

 

edit: this is for pve obviously, in pvp neither armor nor defense really do anything useful, so just forget about that.

 

 

Not to mention because all of our defense is based on parry/block/deflect we get the animation delay a lot more if we go on a good parry/dodge string. This will lower our threat because we have to spend that extra .5 to 1 second smashing our keys to make sure out ability goes off.

 

It also doesn't help that our best spec for threat is 14/27/0. Impale + dot every 9 seconds is better threat than backhand every minute. Better tanking talents in the vengeance tree as well.

[steinsgate]

All the classes were tested for ever a year before most of the forum mouth breathers even got to see them. The devs know what a correctly played class does, if you cannot play the class correctly that doesn't mean the class is low damage it means you are bad at doing damage with it. Not every class is face roll easy mode like a BH, that doesn't make them better DPS it makes them easy mode DPS. Its just really really sad that most players seem to thing faceroll easy - better, when most of the time its the opposite.

 

You're absolutely right, devs are NEVER wrong. Remember 3.0 Ret?

 

Oh...

 

Remember release Xin Xhao?

 

Oh...

 

Remember release Vayne?

 

Oh...

 

Remember pre-fix C'Thun?

 

Oh...

Edited January 18, 2012 by steinsgate

[Mysquine]

You know when a tanking class/tree is broken when you only spend 14 points in it and the rest in dps. Alot of high end raiding Jug tanks are doing this. Something needs to change.

[Ekemeister]

meh, this is about as bad as the threads that say Khem Val is broken after lv 26. Last night, I spoke with one player who stacked accuracy and criton Khem and dared to QQ in General chat "Why can't my Khem Val tank?".

 

I can't speak for everybody's case, but usually the problem is a l2p issue. I'm a lv 41 sin in the guild Husketeers. We have juggernauts that shrug off so much damage, our healers are dps'ing in some of the instances.

 

Besides, this was not a problem in Beta. Therefore Immortal Jugg Tanking can be done.

 

edit: The first guild to complete an endgame operation used a Jedi Shadow as their main tank. Sins & Shadows are anything but broken.

[drkieros]

meh, this is about as bad as the threads that say Khem Val is broken after lv 26. Last night, I spoke with one player who stacked accuracy and criton Khem and dared to QQ in General chat "Why can't my Khem Val tank?".

 

I can't speak for everybody's case, but usually the problem is a l2p issue. I'm a lv 41 sin in the guild Husketeers. We have juggernauts that shrug off so much damage, our healers are dps'ing in some of the instances.

 

Besides, this was not a problem in Beta. Therefore Immortal Jugg Tanking can be done.

 

edit: The first guild to complete an endgame operation used a Jedi Shadow as their main tank. Sins & Shadows are anything but broken.

 

Jugg tanking can be done, but you have to put in 5 times the work as other classes. You are right about sin/shadows. They are not broken at all.

[jamescloutier]

Jugg tanking can be done, but you have to put in 5 times the work as other classes. You are right about sin/shadows. They are not broken at all.

 

I'd agree with that. Juggs can tank fine. You can't sleepwalk and tank on a Jugg however. And bad tanking habits show through on bad juggs.

 

Some tweaks would be nice but I like how busy the class is and I don't want every class to be easy mode.

[Hizoka]

Jugg tanking can be done, but you have to put in 5 times the work as other classes. You are right about sin/shadows. They are not broken at all.

 

that doesn't make the class broken, it just means you have to be a better player. One class being harder to play then another is not inbalance, that is allowing people to find what class they prefer, some people like to play more complicated/harder classes, others want to bang their head on the keyboard and instantly win.

[Mysquine]

that doesn't make the class broken, it just means you have to be a better player. One class being harder to play then another is not inbalance, that is allowing people to find what class they prefer, some people like to play more complicated/harder classes, others want to bang their head on the keyboard and instantly win.

 

I see you've not played a juggernaut then. Using a DPS tree, to tank that works better than a designated Tanking tree means the class is broken. The Tanking tree is in shams with alot of beneficial talents in the DPS tree.

[steinsgate]

that doesn't make the class broken, it just means you have to be a better player. One class being harder to play then another is not inbalance, that is allowing people to find what class they prefer, some people like to play more complicated/harder classes, others want to bang their head on the keyboard and instantly win.

 

The class is not more complicated, nor is it harder. It is weaker.

[Kolbenito]

We are the best TANK.. best in slot gear a Jug mits 15%+ more often than a loltech

 

We have the best coolodown (powertechs cant even TANK revan hardmode foundry because of this)

 

We have amazing utility with intercede and leap which make us hutball gods..not to mention force push and a FREE AOE SNARE

 

I jsut don't see what the QQ about

 

The QQ should be how much DPS TANK spec Powertechs keep from their baseline bounty hunting class

 

I generally disagree with balancing classes by removing ability from other ones. Rather than take away from Bounty Hunters, the focus should be on what does a Juggernaut/Guardian need.

 

Secondly being decent single target raid tanks and useful in one out of three Warzones is not the same thing as "Juggernauts" are fine. Immortal is fine, for boss tanking and ball carrying. Rage is fine for AOE damage in Warzones. I don't think the community has enough information yet on what PVE DPS is like.

 

The vast majority of the concerns from players are about the Vengeance tree. The Rage tree gets legitimate concerns about it being an entire spec around buffing one ability to do good damage.

 

Skill is a factor in Juggernaut/Guardian play, but that is made more so by how simplistic the damage and threat rotations are for some other classes. Many ACs in this game have a very low Skill Floor, Juggernauts/Guardians are probably near the higher end along with Marauders/Sentinels of Skill Floor required to play the class properly. Skill Cap refers to how much your individual ability as a player "adds" to what you can do with the class. I would actually characterize SW/JK as having a high skill floor and a moderate skill cap.

 

The animation delays are probably the biggest thing affecting SW/JK that needs to be addressed now. Down the road I'm sure we will see some tweaks to gameplay and balance. Most people don't want to faceroll the game, but they also don't want to have to make undue effort to remain competitive either

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kolbenito

[eunichron]

Jugg tanking can be done, but you have to put in 5 times the work as other classes. You are right about sin/shadows. They are not broken at all.

 

Pretty much this. I'm a Jugg tank and I have cleared every single HM FP, and 4/5 HM EV as my guild's main tank. Our damage is OK, the only thing I would like to see is a couple more abilities that have an innate threat % increase (like Backhand).

[Ulfr_Lynnedslag]

I see you've not played a juggernaut then. Using a DPS tree, to tank that works better than a designated Tanking tree means the class is broken. The Tanking tree is in shams with alot of beneficial talents in the DPS tree.

 

people take the 14/27 build for THREAT, not damage reduction.

 

purely because people dont know how to handle proper threat building with a juggernaut.

 

looking through both trees, this is what I can see for 'tanking' talents in the vengence tree.

 

Unstoppable, which grants a 4 second damage reduction of 20% every time you force charge, which you might once per pull, or risk wiping the group / having threat issues otherwise.

 

Huddle, which gives 4% endurance and makes intercede give the tank 20% damage reduction for 6 seconds. which is on a 20 second cooldown, while nice for basic tank and spanks, having a boss move at all just to gain 6 seconds of damage reduction can be fatal, depending on the boss.

 

and Deafining Defense, which gives 4% permanent damage reduction and makes our aoe taunt lower in cooldown.

 

To be fair, Huddle and Deafening Defense 'should' be in the tanking tree. but they are not.

 

now, the damage reduction talents being missed in the immortal tree to 'gain' the ones above plus impale.

 

Shield Specialization, increasing shield chance by 4%, while not seemingly huge, thats the shield chance poping up 4% more then it did, which is always good for damage reduction.

 

Sonic Barrier, which procs every time you force scream, and absorbs a moderate amount of damage. the amount it absorbs does scale with level, and im assuming it scales with gear too. and since it procs every 15 seconds (the cooldown of force scream) it makes this a very nice talent for damage reduction that is often overlooked by theroycrafters.

 

Dark Blood, another talent overlooked by theroycrafters, it makes endure pain last 5 seconds longer, giving 30% more health for that extra 5 seconds, which could mean life and death. and elemental and internal damage reduction of 4% permanently.

 

now, while the items in the Vengence tree do seem to have the upper hand, and you will do more damage in that tree, thus more threat, technically. everything is still speculation for the theroy crafters, due to Sonic Barrier not giving a set number for the amount of damage absorbtion it does. Add to that, the, questionable, and possibly fatal forced movement in order to gain the damage reduction abilities within the Vengence tree, can easily show otherwise.

[FuzioNdapro]

We are the best TANK.. best in slot gear a Jug mits 15%+ more often than a loltech

 

We have the best coolodown (powertechs cant even TANK revan hardmode foundry because of this)

 

We have amazing utility with intercede and leap which make us hutball gods..not to mention force push and a FREE AOE SNARE

 

I jsut don't see what the QQ about

 

The QQ should be how much DPS TANK spec Powertechs keep from their baseline bounty hunting class

 

HAHAHAHA i couldnt laught more we got least migtation TPS and DPS of all the tanks they got 29-33 more migtation talents than us in their tank tree and deal 15-25% more dps wich is tps plus they got high threat abilities with low cooldown. we are forced to play vengence when tanking to hold agro of equaly geared dps if not worse geared even. wich makes immortal tanks even more ridiculous. and no i know the rotations by the nail, ive MT in pretty well known guilds in wow, and know how to theorycraft and to put my rotation perfect more or less the threat damage and migtation is so bad compared to the other tanks its silly, we should be happy that bosses hits to little in hardmode and nightmare on tanks than they are suppose to.

 

 

Immortal tree and jugg tanking tree is broken PERIOD.

Edited January 19, 2012 by FuzioNdapro