BobTheTeepo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) You vastly over estimate how many people will accept a mediocre game as long as it is Star Wars. This game is proof that the IP can overcome even the most amateur of programming teams. From world class failure of a UI to poor class design, no real balance amongst classes, to an obvious single player game hastily and badly implemented with an MMO engine developed in a vacumn so air tight I doubt they knew what other games did wrong. Just like to point out, that half of your claims were flat out false. Poor class design, it may not be original but the design/concept is good. Class balance is better than pretty much any MMO I have ever played, and considering this is launch when classes should be WILDLY imbalanced, I'd say that's really impressive. Also, you haven't played many MMOs that aren't super popular have you? MOST MMOs have worse UI than this, not saying it's not bad, but "world class failure" is exaggerating. I think you vastly overestimate how many people agree with your opinion, and how correct your opinion is. Edited January 17, 2012 by BobTheTeepo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditboo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Cater to the monarchs, cause the peasants look up to them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasq Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Point is moot. They can concentrate on both because unlike other MMO's they kept their entire DEV team on. A new raid coming in this weeks patch. A new planet and new raid content coming in march. New Sing player content and warzones in the same patch. The 'what they can become' comment is kinds sad and wrong on so many levels. in march? perfect for me to join open beta tera! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. It was true 'during' the days of UO/EQ1, not since. Let us not confuse an era where high-speed connections where rare to have the same online playerbase as today. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities. That hasn't been true for awhile. WoW went casual as hell in Wrath and the game seemed to do fine at that point. The hardcore drive games that cater to niche playerbases. UO, EQ, Eve, etc. But we're now at the point where many people playing mmos are the same that play Battlefield or Diablo or Skyrim. It's not nearly as much of a niche community anymore, and like it or not, most gamers don't depend on 'hardcore' players to keep them interested. The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest. Actually, quite often they refer to hardcore gamers as basement dwellers. I remember not long ago when we all saw the announcement for a guild getting a heroic raid realm first. One of the first responses was 'Congrats, your months of chastity have finally paid off!' If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining. This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact. Considering I've seen plenty of casuals that hold hardcores in active disdain, pretty sure that's still a hypothesis. Not to mention that to prove something as a fact, you'd have to compare it to a controlled environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nytak Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You vastly over estimate how many people will accept a mediocre game as long as it is Star Wars. This game is proof that the IP can overcome even the most amateur of programming teams. From world class failure of a UI to poor class design, no real balance amongst classes, to an obvious single player game hastily and badly implemented with an MMO engine developed in a vacumn so air tight I doubt they knew what other games did wrong. Fail opinion posted as fact is fail opinion posted as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandrax Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hardcore players clear the content, then unsub until new content is pushed out. In the meantime they are subbed to some other game until they have raced through that content too. Casual players take longer to wade through the content and stay subbed whilst they do so. Many casual players are still not done with the previous update when the new update comes. Ultimately however, both sets of players need each other for a modern MMO to succeed. The casual players keep the subs steadily ticking over, the hardcore players drive the content updates. It's a necessary union of convenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JansanRuno Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This post is so wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkkh Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I bet Electronic Arts never intended hardcore MMO players as a target audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liathan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I believe Blizzard disagrees with you OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Casuals are the consumers of content, hardcore are the testers. Companies code for the casuals and use the hardcores to make sure they get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities. The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest. If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining. This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact. 100% agree with this. Casuals which make up the bulk (maybe 80%) of the playerbase will not agree with this but they do not understand how it works. The top playerbase moves on then the next, then the next and so on. No-one wants to play a game aimed at low level skilled players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTheTeepo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hardcores (quite often, though not always) think they're better than everyone else (Cranberries on this very forum is a prime example). They think they're entitled to special treatment, and content tailored specifically for their wants (This thread?). Hardcore gaming elements exclude casuals from partaking in it (raids that require massive organization, tons of players, super strong equips, and really skilled players). Whereas, casual gaming elements are completely accessible to the minority that is hardcore, even if it's not exactly what the hardcore want. It's funny because, I'm definitely considered a hardcore PvPer (well, at least in most games I play). But even I recognize the lifeblood of this and most other modern MMOs is the casuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I bet Electronic Arts never intended hardcore MMO players as a target audience. Because the offer things for casuals as well doesn't mean they don't cater to hardcores. Try actually reading what you post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacktailstalker Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Casuals are the consumers of content, hardcore are the testers. Companies code for the casuals and use the hardcores to make sure they get it right. I dont know which world you live in kid but you seem to be hardcore player and I have news flash for you and I hate to break it for you BUT YOU AINT IMPORTANT! Go AWAY! Edited January 17, 2012 by Blacktailstalker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hardcores (quite often, though not always) think they're better than everyone else (Cranberries on this very forum is a prime example). They think they're entitled to special treatment, and content tailored specifically for their wants (This thread?). . I just want to say how impressed i am that you posted an opinion as an opinion. Something the forums could use more of!!! Carry on good sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liathan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 100% agree with this. Casuals which make up the bulk (maybe 80%) of the playerbase will not agree with this but they do not understand how it works. The top playerbase moves on then the next, then the next and so on. No-one wants to play a game aimed at low level skilled players. Just because someone dedicates 6 hours a night to a game does not mean they are more skilled then the person who dedicated 4 hours a night, 2 hours a night, or 1 hour a night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwence Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 op's statement was true for EQ back from 99-06 or so, and it's why EQ is and probably always will be, the best MMO of all time. the statement is not true for games like WoW and ToR, however, still alot of content that probably will never be touched by the majority of players in terms of raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnetikjakhammer Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hardcores are not the majority. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will reach true wisdom enlightenment. WoW didn't get so popular because of hardcores ... think about it. NOPE, but the minorities usually drive the industries. Think about the rich...they are the minority of the world, but they run and drive everything. THEY are the reason people aspire to make more money. Athletes: a majority of people on earth aren't athletes, but they drive us to better ourselves, get better at a sport, and work for a better looking body. Sure, hardcores aren't the majority, but don't deny the fact that THEY are the ones that make mmos what they are. When was the last time in the gaming world where you saw a casual gamer create trends(and not just adding "z" to the end of words, or little silly sayings) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netherlen Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities. The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest. If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining. This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact. This was true when MMOs were few and far between and were played by only a handful of people. Nowadays, you're not so special anymore. The focus of developers has shifted to the casuals. You want hardcore, you go play one of the niche games, like Darkfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfmiolleh Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Hardecore and casual are just terms that you use to represent your oppinion of yourself. Those who refer to themselves as "hardcore" usually seem to think that because they play non stop that they represent the future of gaming. Those who call themselves casual usually just play when they arent somehow building their lives. Both pay 15 bucks a month, I doubt both have the same level of "emotional" investment. I think BioWare knows who they are targeting. Edited January 17, 2012 by Derfmiolleh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities. The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest. If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining. This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact.The hardcores are the one's who play it and contribute to it the most. If you're referring to end game raiding hardcores here's a tasty WoW statistic for ya courtesy of WOWprogress.com. 1.6M characters have downed a boss in T11 or higher content. Since most end game raiders have multiple alts that raid, the number of players will be lower. That best case 1.6M is but 14.6% of the total 11.1M subscriber base. They are the niche, not the core. The only ones who look up to the hardcores you described are the hardcores themselves, and probably spend copious amounts of time in front of a mirror doing it. Edited January 17, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancientwolfgr Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Stopped reading after opening statement. Gibberish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuichix Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sorry welcome to the new world of MMO where "hardcore" is 5% or less of the population(go look at how many people downed Heroic Cata WOW bosses), and "casual" is the majority. Also lol at being a "hardcore gamer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 They are the niche, not the core. The only ones who look up to the hardcores you described are the hardcores themselves, and probably spend copious amounts of time in front of a mirror doing it. //thread over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staavis_SC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I can easily say that I DO NOT envy hardcore players. If anything, I pity them. So much of "who they are" in the game community is tied up in "World First" and accomplishments that quite literally mean nothing once you think about it. Think of what hardcores sacrafice in order to achieve those world firsts, and you'll know what I mean. But ultimately the accomplishments mean nothing. Down the road, when new content is released and the old content is obsolete or out-leveled, I can simply go back with a group of friends, and do the exact same thing these hardcores did, while still having all the enjoyment of the base game, without the mad rush to be there first. Trust me, I know. I did it in WoW! LOL During Burning Crusade, we were going back and downing Molten Core and Naxx with Level 70's that were shredding the trash mobs and bosses. In Wrath, we were going back and raiding Magtheridon and Black Temple and the Sunwell. Yeah, other people did it before us. So what? We did it too, we just did it a little later and without all the insane wipes, massive farming to pay repair bills, and the generally undesireable stress that accompanies attempting to do all this as a world first! The same will be happening in SWTOR, and with the massive amounts of Orange gear in all Flashpoints, we'll take our time, we'll enjoy our stories, and later on, we'll come back and loot pillage all the lower Flashpoints and such, because we can, and we'll see all the same things the "hardcores" see, but on our schedule! And to add insult to injury, we'll actually have fun doing it our way, rather than the way hardcores feel it HAS to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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