Reverse Engineering, wow

[Lordadamar]

I would have to agree that RE is rough, And Im probably close to 1 million in credits dumped into the crafting system...

 

My skill Levels are

 

400 Artifice

400 Archeology

400 Treasure Hunting

 

One of the main problem is the current Auction House system does not support a Pro-growth economy. It more of a hit or miss on sales with a 2 day window...

Vendors dont buy crafted items at base cost, its a major loss to use a vendor to keep you moving forward...

 

Vendor items sold to for crafting are priced to high...

 

RE chances of progressing to the next item seem to be completely random and your skill level does not seem to increase your chances...

 

Example: Last night

 

I crafted 2 different level 47 enhancements 5 of each for a total of 10..

 

RE's all 10 learned the blue version

 

Then I crafted 20 lvl 15 enhancements all the same and did not learn the blue version...

 

Its not advantageous to try to learn every recipe to much time and too little return...

 

Every chance I get I send 5 of my Companions out for blue / purple mats but the return rate is extremely low when your on current tier stuff even with maxx skill..

 

Now if I send them out to lower tiers they bring back a ton of mats... That may be intentional design...

Edited January 17, 2012 by Lordadamar

[lunabaguna]

Im honestly not even worrying much about the actual stats, I just want one full set of the purple tier 2 gear for the base stat increase and armor increase it provides. I'm trying for the defensive stats as I'm a tank, but not trying to get an exclusive peice per slot. Even with this mentaltiy its still destroying my wallet and wasting hours and hours and hours of my time just to get sub-par results.

[Almghty_gir]

cross posting from here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1764792&posted=1#post1764792

 

what's the point in rolling anything but biochem?

 

if you're a trooper and you rolled synthweaving to help your guild mates out, but then a level 50 schematic drops in eternity vault... well tough, you can make the item but nobody will get any use out of it, it's bind on pickup!

 

if you're a smuggler, and you rolled cybertech thinking you could make some worthwhile armouring mods either to sell (allowing people everywhere to customize their gear) or even use for yourself... but then a level 50 schematic drops and you find out that the item it allows you to make is bind on pickup! so you can't help anyone out, or even stimulate the economy/get rich.

 

etc. etc.

 

so please, somebody tell me why anyone needs to roll anything but biochem, bearing in mind it's the only crew skill that will actually be GUARANTEED to benefit you at all, let alone anyone else.

[lunabaguna]

Check the forum for the PTR, even Biochem wont be useful post 1.1

[Johnholliday]

Check the forum for the PTR, even Biochem wont be useful post 1.1

 

after 1.1 its now the ONLY profession to get....again.

 

1.1 just makes cybertech junky now. biochem is still numero uno. by miles

[MrTijger]

Read much? Ive REd over 200 of one recipe with no upgrade and the upgrade ill get is not as good as something you can get in 5 minutes in ilum. Not to mention that I actually had to spend over 500k leveling the crafting skill from 1-400, whereas those people doing the pvp ilum dailies did not have to prep for that at all.

 

And I've gotten them in one on occassion, other times I couldnt even count the times I tried *shrug*

[Archetypee]

Crafted items being made obsolete from dropped gear seems to be a very common problem in MMOs. The most recent example I can think of is Rift - absolutely no point to using most crated armor/weapons, unless you do not like to do dungeons/raids.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

sucks that this happens, but at least the RE process gives you a schematic you can produce and sell, while the daily loot can only be used by your character. your loss in RE'ing stuff should still pay off in the long run, provided you don't give up!

[SuperomegaOP]

its like that because they didnt make crafting skills useful at end-game... well besides biochem and cybertech... but guess what?

 

 

 

they got NERFED™

Edited January 18, 2012 by SuperomegaOP

[Alipasha]

I understand the randomness, but the input vs rewards is horrible, thats the point. over 200 combines now for something that is not even as good as a pvp reward you can get in 5 minutes with no input whatsoever.

 

I think they have to have a CAP on their random generations to grant you schematics, because based on the definition of RE, the "skill" you acquire through it does the job! Now if it is "random" with no memory, then it is like the old "assembling a 747 in a junk yard by a tornado passing through it" case. I think they should add a memory feature (like color code of your schematics in granting skill points), like widening the random "range" each time you do it, so at worst, you get it after, say, 20 times.

 

This "cap" could also be a function of your current skill level. But I think "random with no memory" (history independent random generation, like flipping a coin) is not consistent with the idea of "learning" through the process. That only means that the "stupidity" of the toon in learning the schematics, is randomly changing! From 0 to 100%!! So your toon is sometimes super smart, and then sometimes super dumb!

 

In reality, there is a base "average" smartness present in all of us, it is never "zero"!. That translates to the CAP I mentioned before. But I understand that holding the history (even in form of a real number) for all the schematics for all the people could be an extra demand on memory and book keeping for the servers and they probably went for the "Easy" solution of full randomness.

 

(as an example for history dependent random effect, you can look at the skill points you get from a green, yellow and orange schematic. The orange has a very wide range of success, so it almost always grants you points, yellow has narrower and green has a narrow range (which if the randoms number falls in, you get the point), so the similar system is already implemented and they just need to extend it to RE part.)

 

Sorry for the long post!

Edited January 18, 2012 by Alipasha

[Hiroyukai]

So I was happily leveling up, getting RE upgrades every once in a while, thinking "RE is fine, working as intended, an awesome system." But now I'm at level 50, and have been trying since level 40 to get the tier 2 purples for each of crew skills vendor recipies, and I have a grand total of... 1. I have literally REd over 200 pairs of the blue pants and helm, with not one upgrade to the purple. Ive funneled over 1 million credits in crafting mats just trying to get these upgrades. I have over 50 purple mats that Ive gotten while getting mats just sitting there waiting for the day I actually get a second upgrade to this set.

 

Then the kicker. I did my pvp ilum weekly/daily. I got 3 upgrades that are going to be better than the gear I could craft even after all this pain.

 

Bioware, please either fix RE to give better returns, or massively upgrade the gear you can make. I just wasted 40 levels and prob over 1.5mil credits leveling up a skill that is completely worthless at this point.

 

 

I'd also thought the same thing but until reading this post I hadn't really looked back on the credits I had been spending. I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I'm actually sitting on mats wondering if it is better to sell them versus making the attempts for purples...

[Obbu]

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that i have a 49-50 epic for every single slot in IA medium armour

 

Usable stats too, not just presence/redoubt

 

Takes a considerable investment to get there though...

 

Im guessing 500-1000k on average?

[Ziarra]

I agree 100% with the OP! Where do I sign... I have RE'd so many lvl 50 purple mats over and over and over to get one purple tank Helm recipe. Mats that I could have easliy sold for more than a million on the GTN. And do I get this recipe? nada. Zip. I gave up finally.

 

You know what I did instead? I spent about an hour with a guildee doing all the dailies on Ilum and Belsavis, and threw those mods into an orange piece of gear and Voila! I had a better helm then the purple helmet I was trying for the longest time to craft.

 

How is this not a glaring problem? It just shows me that anyone that wants end game regular gear (we arent even talking raid or pvp gear here) can just bypass the lvl 400 synthweaver and get it on their own much easier and without having to lvl a crafter whatsoever. Somehow that makes the endgame RE'ing pointless does it not?

[Seraphical]

So I was happily leveling up, getting RE upgrades every once in a while, thinking "RE is fine, working as intended, an awesome system." But now I'm at level 50, and have been trying since level 40 to get the tier 2 purples for each of crew skills vendor recipies, and I have a grand total of... 1. I have literally REd over 200 pairs of the blue pants and helm, with not one upgrade to the purple. Ive funneled over 1 million credits in crafting mats just trying to get these upgrades. I have over 50 purple mats that Ive gotten while getting mats just sitting there waiting for the day I actually get a second upgrade to this set.

 

Then the kicker. I did my pvp ilum weekly/daily. I got 3 upgrades that are going to be better than the gear I could craft even after all this pain.

 

Bioware, please either fix RE to give better returns, or massively upgrade the gear you can make. I just wasted 40 levels and prob over 1.5mil credits leveling up a skill that is completely worthless at this point.

 

Let's see the math comparing you against the "lucky winners" and then we can start having a discussion about why your experience isn't either a) intended or b) you simply feeling singled out?

[Lady_Alyria]

The worst part is when you finally do manage to make it and realize the stuff you get from dailies is better.

[Bellaralo]

Going to say this, I have been trying ALL day to get all the lower level barrel patterns on an alt. I am talking like level 9-21 barrells because I plan on leveling alts that could use them... well after much RE'ing I have to say something is very wrong. I made 40 vibroknives, level 19 I believe.. and I couldn't even get a epic pattern. Even thou they only took 7-8mins to make per... it was still a chunk of wasted materials/time. *throws fists in air*

[Seraphical]

Let's see some suggestions about how to fix this, eh?

[Rotterdam]

I don't mind that it is random and could potentially end up burning through millions of credits and tons of resources.

 

I do mind, however, that once I finally get the ultimate recipe and get a mastercraft proc, it is lower in stats than a daily commendation item that can be obtained in a few hours with no credits or resources lost.

 

It could be +1 endurance better for all I care, just make the crafted stuff better than daily stuff. The time/credits invested should reflect that.

[Lexlo]

A way to fix this is to make end-game gear drop as schematics that need to be taken to crafters to make.

 

 

Especially with armor that has setpiece bonuses.

 

 

(Incoming rage from people too lazy to find said crafter)

[Seraphical]

I don't mind that it is random and could potentially end up burning through millions of credits and tons of resources.

 

I do mind, however, that once I finally get the ultimate recipe and get a mastercraft proc, it is lower in stats than a daily commendation item that can be obtained in a few hours with no credits or resources lost.

 

It could be +1 endurance better for all I care, just make the crafted stuff better than daily stuff. The time/credits invested should reflect that.

 

I agree with this.

 

People are frustrated at the time/effort involved in getting something that can very rapidly be circumvented AND bested by doing something else.

 

Simply put [for my brain] - what's the incentive to continue with it?

[Rotterdam]

I agree with this.

 

People are frustrated at the time/effort involved in getting something that can very rapidly be circumvented AND bested by doing something else.

 

Simply put [for my brain] - what's the incentive to continue with it?

 

Yep!

 

For now, the only incentives I have for doing are:

 

1. My name will be on it.

2. It will be rare/unique regardless of the fact that it is weaker in stats.

 

 

Someone will inspect me and say "Holy crap! You spent a ton of time, creds, and mats to make an inferior armor set.. GG!"

[Lady_Alyria]

Going to say this, I have been trying ALL day to get all the lower level barrel patterns on an alt. I am talking like level 9-21 barrells because I plan on leveling alts that could use them... well after much RE'ing I have to say something is very wrong. I made 40 vibroknives, level 19 I believe.. and I couldn't even get a epic pattern. Even thou they only took 7-8mins to make per... it was still a chunk of wasted materials/time. *throws fists in air*

 

There aren't any upgrade for the offhands, it's a known bug. At least known by the player base.

[Greyfeld]

It's not reverse engineering that's the problem. The problem is crafted mods are capped at level 49 while the mods we get from Daily commendations and the 2 heroic 2+ dailies are level 50. On top of that, there doesn't seem to be any raid level crafting schematics that you can get through raiding.

 

Sounds about right.

 

The fact is, the horrible RNG for re-engineering schematics would be acceptable (frustrating, but acceptable) if doing so actually produced gear that was BiS.

[Risq]

I think they have to have a CAP on their random generations to grant you schematics, because based on the definition of RE, the "skill" you acquire through it does the job! Now if it is "random" with no memory, then it is like the old "assembling a 747 in a junk yard by a tornado passing through it" case. I think they should add a memory feature (like color code of your schematics in granting skill points), like widening the random "range" each time you do it, so at worst, you get it after, say, 20 times.

 

This "cap" could also be a function of your current skill level. But I think "random with no memory" (history independent random generation, like flipping a coin) is not consistent with the idea of "learning" through the process. That only means that the "stupidity" of the toon in learning the schematics, is randomly changing! From 0 to 100%!! So your toon is sometimes super smart, and then sometimes super dumb!

 

In reality, there is a base "average" smartness present in all of us, it is never "zero"!. That translates to the CAP I mentioned before. But I understand that holding the history (even in form of a real number) for all the schematics for all the people could be an extra demand on memory and book keeping for the servers and they probably went for the "Easy" solution of full randomness.

 

(as an example for history dependent random effect, you can look at the skill points you get from a green, yellow and orange schematic. The orange has a very wide range of success, so it almost always grants you points, yellow has narrower and green has a narrow range (which if the randoms number falls in, you get the point), so the similar system is already implemented and they just need to extend it to RE part.)

 

Sorry for the long post!

 

What you're suggesting is called the "Anti-Frustration" coding or feature.

 

I know that AC (Asheron's Call) had it for quest items, and apparently quite a few other games have it as well. In short though, it's a hard cap that says you can't go more than "this" many attempts before you succeed, but before that cap it's random.

 

But it's not an uncommon way of coding, or better stated the uncommon games code it to relieve stress in their players.

 

Apparently even Wow has it, but not on "all" it's items, just on some things.

 

But that above page is a good read to see how, if the Dev's really wanted to keep their fan base from growing frustrated, takes this into account.

[LiquidRavenS]

I have revered engineered as of last night 60-10 Might Hilt 22 (blue quality) and still have not learned the higher version...all I can think of and ask is why both at this point?? I can just run raids and daily missions and get stuff far better...