Why does PVP need a gear grind? Why cant the competion be enough?

[Sevenpatch]

Guild Wars did it best when it comes to PvP.... You shouldnt have to grind out for months to get the best gear. PvP should be Skill vs Skill not Skill vs gear and Gear winning.

 

Those that argue otherwise need the gear to compensate for there lack of skill

 

/end thread

 

/start thread again

 

Why can't you have the gear and skill?

 

It's been stated before but PvP needs gear to match the PvE gear other wise the PvE'ers would own PvP. You can't have the PvP gear be as good as the PvE gear because then the PvPers could roll over the PvE content, so that is how you get the magic stat that makes PvP gear not as good as PvE gear in PvE situations but better than PvE gear in PvP situations.

 

Also, now that I think about it, why can't a person have neither gear or skill?

[gunnyhighway]

Herp Derp

[Darth_Philar]

/start thread again

 

Why can't you have the gear and skill?

 

It's been stated before but PvP needs gear to match the PvE gear other wise the PvE'ers would own PvP. You can't have the PvP gear be as good as the PvE gear because then the PvPers could roll over the PvE content, so that is how you get the magic stat that makes PvP gear not as good as PvE gear in PvE situations but better than PvE gear in PvP situations.

 

Also, now that I think about it, why can't a person have neither gear or skill?

 

Or you implement PvP the correct way and ignore the stats on ALL gear in Warzones. All classes are given base stats for their class and can use PvP-specific Stims to boost whatever stat their playstyle relies upon.

 

The only arguments against this are:

1. No grind, so bad for subscription renewals

2. No stat crutch for bad players, which will force them to either give up or get better.

[Twitchx]

Once you get the gear, it's all competition. Maybe a little tedious to get the gear, but hey we're playing an MMO afterall that's why I picked up the game in the first place.

[gunnyhighway]

Wasn't aware the definition of MMO by default was grind guess i missed that memo

[Sicknss]

Or you implement PvP the correct way and ignore the stats on ALL gear in Warzones. All classes are given base stats for their class and can use PvP-specific Stims to boost whatever stat their playstyle relies upon.

 

The only arguments against this are:

1. No grind, so bad for subscription renewals

2. No stat crutch for bad players, which will force them to either give up or get better.

 

Or you play a game where gear is never a factor. Sorry, but I'm not going to have my time and effort nullified. That being said (I'll repeat) the gear doesn't have to be pvp specific, I think the gear could be the same as pve gear you'd just have 2 choices on how to obtain it.

[karcyon]

Discuss....

Simple:

1. WoW has it.

2. Other MMOs have it too.

3. BioWares conclusion: we need it too.

 

This applies to 90% of SWTOR btw.

[Darth_Philar]

Or you play a game where gear is never a factor. Sorry, but I'm not going to have my time and effort nullified. That being said (I'll repeat) the gear doesn't have to be pvp specific, I think the gear could be the same as pve gear you'd just have 2 choices on how to obtain it.

 

You are missing the point. There is nothing even remotely RPGish about PvP. Ever.

By trying to combine RPG elements with PvP you get a system that is innately broken. Developers then try to fix the broken system with a PvP stat that doesn't work and creates a massive imbalance between new characters and old characters, (notice I said characters, not players).

 

You are approaching PvP from an RPG perspective where your time spent has meaning. In PvP, Time Spent should mean absolutely nothing as it is supposed to be about working as a team, correct reactions, and player skill. Once you realize that PvP is a completely distinct game from PvE, you will recognize the facts above as being true statements that need to be corrected.

[nubzz]

The pvp in old swg was fun and there were no warzones/battlegrounds or special gear that was any better than player made (other than for looks and it wasn't repairable). I recall skipping on even wearing the real armor and many other people did as well. Strange stuff. Armor in that game at least early on was about like a buff.

So for the people who ponder why gear might irritate someone in a mmo especially where pvp and fun is concerned there is some food. Character progression does not necessitate gear progression and I enjoy pvp in these games by far more than the pve.

[fenrylwizard]

people were spoonfed grindy mmos for the past decade, and the general rule was:

1/ if you wanna be good in pve you need to grind for pve gear and hope you get lucky.

2/ if you wanna be good in pvp you need to grind for pvp gear and hope you get lucky.

 

i m not saying all skilled gamers play other games, but thats not entirely wrong. Skilled gamers will wanna play games that are competitive, where skill and practice alone matter. Those gamers play SC2 or fps games or dota games. If a popular mmo shows up with a pvp philosophy that doesnt include mindless grinding, it will attract pro gramers, sponsors etc.. yes i m looking at you guild wars2. Until then, despite its blatant flaws, swtor is probably one of the best mmos when it comes to pvp and i'm having fun while grinding my *** off and praying the RNG system wont kick me in the balls as often as it does.

Edited January 17, 2012 by fenrylwizard

[Rhinoplat]

Would people really pay monthly if there was no character progression? I know I wouldn't. Its fun getting new gear and knowing winning produces tangible benefits.

 

I would pay monthly to see guild progression - as in guild vs guild city sieging. I loved Shadowbane and I don't need gear as a progression carrot.

 

Gear should only be there to help you differentiate your builds. So that one person has more HP instead of damage etc. Gear should never give a deciding factor in a fight.

 

PvP needs a whole planet with Outlaw's Den rulesets, where it's a place that guilds can build/manage their own cities. Then allow other guilds to fight over or destroy those cities.

 

Warzones are a joke for PvP, because it's a time investment not a skill investment (skill - meaning a better prepared character and player - not to be confused with skill as in twitchers).

 

If you have never played Shadowbane then you wouldn't understand how a win there produces real tangible benefits - namely a city!

[Anastasius]

Its another grind to keep you paying the monthly sub.

 

Its a bad system. I do not mind looting/crafting good gear to compete but having to play the "bag lottery" is a horrible game mechanic.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Anastasius

[Foamslinger]

I like PvP when there's nothing on the line but braggins rights. Maybe titles or other fluff.

 

Play games for fun? I know its kinda crazy.

[Twitchx]

people were spoonfed grindy mmos for the past decade, and the general rule was:

1/ if you wanna be good in pve you need to grind for pve gear and hope you get lucky.

2/ if you wanna be good in pvp you need to grind for pvp gear and hope you get lucky.

 

i m not saying all skilled gamers play other games, but thats not entirely wrong. Skilled gamers will wanna play games that are competitive, where skill and practice alone matter. Those gamers play SC2 or fps games or dota games. If a popular mmo shows up with a pvp philosophy that doesnt include mindless grinding, it will attract pro gramers, sponsors etc.. yes i m looking at you guild wars2. Until then, despite its blatant flaws, swtor is probably one of the best mmos when it comes to pvp and i'm having fun while grinding my *** off and praying the RNG system wont kick me in the balls as often as often as it does.

 

100% spot on. People forget that there are different styles of MMO's. This one, Everyquest/WoW style themepark is one of the best options we have here today. This isn't EvE, Darkfall, etc etc. This is a themepark MMO and there is nothing WRONG WITH THAT.

[Roerie]

This scenario defently need tweaking and work to make it viable or just playable Its just a generic idea !

 

Tell me what you would think about this idea:

 

 

Overall idea come from:

I am a big fan of DAOC system, where gear isnt a reward but new ability and upgraded stats (trought realm rank) are.

 

Why is reward needed for pvp ? Well I think having character progression is still important even in PvP since you can assume ppl will RPG trought it saying they earned it trought battle and stuff.

 

But then if gear isnt a factor, how do you draw a line between PvE and PvP so they dont interfere from each other.

 

 

Idea:

Well why not have a PvP ability tree, and PvE ability tree.

 

PVE:

Lets say completing a tier (ala WoW) of operation/flashpoint grant you a lvl and some point to spare in that tree. The ability related to it can be Ability X get a bonus of X dmg AGAINST NON PLAYER TARGET, or you gain X ammont of endurance WHENÉ IN A FLASHPOINT OF OPERATION.

 

PVP:

For PvP it can be exactly the same but against player and in WZ or Specific open world PvP planet (like Illum)

 

 

Advantages of the system ?

Now ppl will say, hey man, thats another grind of some sort. and oyu know what.... Its true but I think its better in a lot of ways:

 

• PvE: Ppl will not all be the same since you can enhance your character the way you think fit the best to ur role/playstyle.
  
• PvP: Those stats will give you an edge in open world PvP battle and then give you the opportunity to battle greater number since your caracter will be stronger in PvP combat.
  

 

The con about all this will still be the Warzone since in those, Low PvP lvl player will face high PvP lvl player right ?

 

Then for Warzone make it so those PvE/PvP tree are disabled.

 

That system bring the following:

 

1. For Warzone (fix number of player on each side) ppl play on same ground and best strategie win.
   
2. For Open world PvP, the most experience player have an edge over low lvl one and then can show their epicness that theyve earned trought pvp combat.
   
3. For PvE, ppl that PvE have then an edge for futur content over ppl that didnt do it
   
4. For diversity: everyone can spec like thy want and wil feel for attached to their toon.
   

 

Then why in the world would low level PvP player go in open world pvp are knowing they will be at a disadvantage over high lvl pvp player. They will just do warzone ....

That is indeed true and to drag them out in open world pvp (and create battle of high magnitude where big army fight each other and where premade group of high lvl pvp player can try their skills against bigger number of player or btween each other (ala daoc rvr) you need to make it WORTH IT.

 

Illum have a part of the answer. You put controlable point (ala keep in daoc) that will eventually lead (when you control more) to open a special planet that will (something in the history or lore I dont know) provide your whole side (imp or rep) a bonus to your caracter (+5 bonus dmg or healing) so ppl will defenetly want to have it right. So they will engage in pvp combat.

 

Yea that idea is pretty stole from DAOC RvR system and relic system youll tell me and its true. But I think its the best system I know that generated tons of PvP (OPEN WORLD) and couple with the PvE tree it will satisfied PvE player too.

 

 

GEAR WISE:

 

As for gear, the idea of moddable armor is pretty much perfect. You can adapt your armor the way you want and it give you the choice of the look you want. Ppl that PvP and PvE want special armor ? fine give them access to moddable armor that have special SKINS trought rank.

 

You then satisfied their want of special looking EPIC amor, earned trought hard work but its just as good as other, you then put the mod you want in to satisfy the stats you want.

 

This scenario defently need tweaking and work to make it viable or just playable Its just a generic idea !

Edited January 17, 2012 by Roerie

[MoarPowar]

Only the few can gain their prestige from their competence in defeating worthwhile challenges.

 

The majority prefer the easy route to what they perceive is prestigious; beating that which is of little challenge, risk, or a 'sure thing' (a grind for gear), and flaunting a perceived symbol of prestige (gear).

 

The latter category is always let down, and ends up on a forum somewhere saying how a game sucks because it's boring, when what they really mean to say is they are bored because their source of prestige, it's potency, is sapped since every other person climbed that predictable mountain and now waves the same symbols (gear).

 

In short, if you derive your happiness from aligning with competent people to defeat other competent people, you'll have an endless source of enjoyment. If you think the way to do it is grinding out wz's by yourself just to get any valor and comms, to get closer to the gear, then you'll suffer the same fate as the fat guy who works 80 hours a week destroying his health to get a Corvette that he thinks will win him a meaningful mate.

 

I'd rather play in blues with PvP'ers that want to win than in purples with PvP'ers who are only thinking about how they just want to queue quick with anyone to get closer to some gear.

 

There's a lot of garbage 'Batllemaster' PvP'ers out there right now who are only good at hitting the enter queue button, nothing more.

[Knifewrench]

100% spot on. People forget that there are different styles of MMO's. This one, Everyquest/WoW style themepark is one of the best options we have here today. This isn't EvE, Darkfall, etc etc. This is a themepark MMO and there is nothing WRONG WITH THAT.

 

But people will keep saying that it's wrong because they don't understand it's all in the name of subscription life.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Knifewrench

[SWImara]

The pvp in old swg was fun and there were no warzones/battlegrounds or special gear that was any better than player made (other than for looks and it wasn't repairable). I recall skipping on even wearing the real armor and many other people did as well. Strange stuff. Armor in that game at least early on was about like a buff.

So for the people who ponder why gear might irritate someone in a mmo especially where pvp and fun is concerned there is some food. Character progression does not necessitate gear progression and I enjoy pvp in these games by far more than the pve.

SWG was in no way shape or form the only game like this. Note however that SWG is dead. I understand that the game had a really loyal following but SWTOR is not SWG and I'm pretty sure that neither Bioware nor EA wants it ot be.

 

100% spot on. People forget that there are different styles of MMO's. This one, Everyquest/WoW style themepark is one of the best options we have here today. This isn't EvE, Darkfall, etc etc. This is a themepark MMO and there is nothing WRONG WITH THAT.

I think its less an issue of people forgetting than that people just don't get it. I played several PvP focused MMOs in the past, I loved them, SWTOR is not that kind of game. Period. Those games had little/no story and were utterly focused on PvP in almost an exact mirror of most current popular games. PvE was somewhat pointless and substantially less focused on in those games because gear essentially didn't matter.

 

SWTOR is a PvE based MMO with a story unlike any I've played to date, the PvP is really fun but it is not by any means a PvP oriented game. PvP gear has "expertise" on it because the game rewards players by providing them with new fancy loot. The loot rewarded is meant to be the best type of loot for that activity. Expertise makes PvP gear the best possible for PvPing as it should be in this model of gameplay.

 

Sure it would be great if we all had the same stats and gear meant nothing in PvP etc... but then we wouldn't be playing this game.

[Ancient_karp]

I'd be satisfied with the ability to earn titles, unique mounts, and appearance armor. I'd be equally happy if we could get unique pvp only abilities (additional purge, self heal, etc) that increased our utility without altering our power.

 

Sadly, most people want to win more than they want a the competition of a level playing field.

[maradigamer]

I'd be satisfied with the ability to earn titles, unique mounts, and appearance armor. I'd be equally happy if we could get unique pvp only abilities (additional purge, self heal, etc) that increased our utility without altering our power.

 

Sadly, most people want to win more than they want a the competition of a level playing field.

 

I'd be fine with all of the above plus the xp and credits we already get for warzones. Unless that meant raid gear dominated pvp, in which case, no thanks.

[Akiwi]

I like the PvP grind to work up to nice PvP gear..... but I must admit I hate the RNG bag system for getting it

 

Also I got told off by people on my own faction the other day for killing a Pube in Ilum. What the f.....

 

I get the whole daily quest trading biz that goes on but idgaf I'm there for some PvP. The community itself has turned into a pedobear hugging PvE bunch imo.

 

PvP quests should be for PvP and not for PvE objectives or at least make it so we have to fight over it or something.

 

I'm just rambling now lol 7:25am time for bed lol

Edited January 17, 2012 by Akiwi

[fenrylwizard]

i feel like pvp is on par with the rest of the game, people keep saying its mostly a story driven mmo but I disagree. Their warzones and world pvp have tons of good ideas in them, but the execution is atrocious, just like the rest of the game ( hi bugged operations, hard to find groups for anything, messed up UI, messed up companions, messed up crafting system). Every aspect of this game, including pvp has brilliant ideas in it but a poor execution. Do we blame bioware? EA? I'm not sure, but a release date for an MMO shouldnt be announced until the betas end and the issues are fixes, specially the obvious ones. I hope that rushing to release the game won't come back to bite them in the *** in the next couple of months.

[Maximilianus]

Copy the DAoC System and everything will be fine for me.

 

Back in those days people fought simply for points and ranks (and thus, for abilities), not for gear. Crafting made sense at all and was badly needed. Every realm had exactly the same basis regarding equipment and that mainly without weeks of farming senseless tags in boring arenas.

 

Unfortunately the old Mythic devs are gone and the guys of WAR merged with Bioware - including their worse PvP ideas.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Maximilianus

[RangKer]

To make it a fair spread, remove all stats on gear/weapons, ,ake Gear/Armor cosmetic only. Then and ONLY then you will truly discover who is skilled or not, and will find the true fans of PvP, because of the risk alone.

[Sicknss]

You are missing the point. There is nothing even remotely RPGish about PvP. Ever.

By trying to combine RPG elements with PvP you get a system that is innately broken. Developers then try to fix the broken system with a PvP stat that doesn't work and creates a massive imbalance between new characters and old characters, (notice I said characters, not players).

 

You are approaching PvP from an RPG perspective where your time spent has meaning. In PvP, Time Spent should mean absolutely nothing as it is supposed to be about working as a team, correct reactions, and player skill. Once you realize that PvP is a completely distinct game from PvE, you will recognize the facts above as being true statements that need to be corrected.

 

I'm missing the point? I don't think they're going to remove PVP so... it's an gear based RPG game with PVP. Everything you just said also applies to PVE, but gear is ok there?

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain away gear upgrades in Call of Duty and Modern Warfare.