Are you blind Bioware? Tanks!

[Is-ith]

The problem with tanking and mitigations in this game is the complete and utter lack of balance and variety of defense/offense stats.

 

First of all im defining "defensive/offensive stats" as stats that have a certain chance to work/fail for the purpose of this discussion.

 

To have a well balanced game having 2 defensive stats is just totally embarrassing anyone that knows how to play a tank well knows that there should be at least 3 defensive stats as far as mitigations/avoidance... yes im not counting damage reduction or endurance as a defensive stat.

A tank that is stacking all health is a total idiot. yes you can can a huge health bar but if u have no defenses the the dpsers will tear u a new one with the offense stats such as crit.

Yes i am saying that bioware has failed on making enough offensive stats as well. but i will get to that later.

 

Back to how much defensive stats a game should have for balance. having 3 defense stats such as block (midigates partial damage), Dodge (avoids all damage), and glance (mitigates a % of the damage) these three stats is the optimal setup. However there should also be offensive stats to work as a checks and balances system because otherwise tanks wouldnt ever die and that would just be retarted. I will elaborate on How a REAL checks and balances system should work ( yes im implying that bioware is *********** stupid when it comes to their checks and balances system. like really get some new developers)

 

Ok but anyways back to the point.

 

For offensive stats have crit (amplify/multiply damage) strikethrough ( amplify damage as well as going through all defensive stats ( block, dodge, glance). now make crit very simple to be able to stack maybe even getting into 70-90% crit with some certain profs. Also make strikethrough alot harder to stack so maybe 30-40 maybe 45% with some certain profs.

 

Now for how the 3 defensive stats (block, dodge, glance) should work against the offensive stats... for block allow the attacker to crit however the defender can still block the attack ( so for instance say a sniper crits for 4k but its blocked by a PT for 500 so the ending result is 3500). again strikethrough would cancel the block all together. for dodge this would kind of be the strikethrough for the defensive side so if one rolls a dodge all damage is reduced to 0 however strikthrough still would cancel out a dodge if a strikthrough is rolled. Now for glancing this stat would be canceled out by both crits and strikthrough however this is were another defensive stat should be implemented bringing the total number of defense stats up 2 4... this new defense stat would be "crit hit reduction" so obviously it would reduce the criticals of all attackers attacking the tank. this stat should be able to be stacked around 30-40 % maybe even 45 or 50 being the ABSOLUTE max. (and be VERY hard to stack it up that high. so with "crit hit reduction glancing becomes more usable and more effective.

 

This type of system allows someone depending on proffesion and build to put out crazy amounts of dps and go right through tanks defenses but it also allows a tank to have crazy amounts of defenses and mitigation capabilities however again they still have their weaknesses as described above in my descriptions of the defensive/offensive inter workings.

 

Obviously have diminishing returns to further check defense/offense stackers.

 

 

 

Now to talk about how a tank should actually work. any good tank knows that stacking one defensive stat as high as you can get it is complete and utter foolishness because of the fact that diminishing returns will kick your ***. a tank needs to spread out what defense stats he stacks across perferably 3 or 4 defensive stats to minimize the effects of diminishing returns along with giving the tank multiple layers of defense like if dodge fails then block is there to back u up and if block fails then glance and if glance fails then your out of luck lol. but the key is to spread out your stats.

 

Now to describe how bioware completely failed in there attempts of checks and balances. first of all there is only 1 offensive stat (crit) and 2 defensive stats (Shield chance and defense) thats correct im not counting damage reduction as an actual defensive stat for this because its to much like armor in its mitigation's. and no im not counting power because thats just like stacking strength if your melee or aim if your a bh which has no chance to fail besides missing. when i see 1 offensive stat and 2 defensive stats all i can think about is how much the team slacked off in putting the combat rolling system together. not to mention that for pvp shield chance is pretty much negated my all the force/tech attacks. Now to talk about crit... whenever u crit it negated shielding all to gether so that throws you down to only 1 defensive stat which is totall crap when you look at how hard it is to stack defense chance. because defense chance gives a 0.35% for each point not to mention that it is has some of the heaviest diminisiong returns. man bioware you did really great with your checks and balances system ( lol).

[aranha]

People seem to miss 1 fact about a tank stat as they are afraid Tanks will become too hard to kill.

 

You should realize that a tank that isnt in offensive gear do not deal any real damage they would be sacrificing Damage to get more survivability.

[FranzK]

.....

 

Hey 2 cents

 

I am dedicated Tank in SWtor

 

I played all tanks available in beta and in LIvE

 

I play war-zones

 

You probably right in your analysis but:

 

1. PvP is about Objectives . Killing and dps meters does not mean much. LvL and gear should not have crucial influence as well.

 

2. Tanking is something that you DO. Not gear or class. Its mindset , style , tactics.

 

 

 

Now i see problems that need solving , bugs , unbalances , and some bad design. And some ppl here have some valid points.

 

But i think that majority of complains comes from:

 

1.Sith Sorceress being most played/popular class on empire side. I had War zones with exclusive all sorc teams.

 

2.Misconception about Tank Role, and Tank skill Tree in Pvp.

{its survivability[dps,heavy armour,high defences] vs protection[tank,guard,taunt]

 

3.Inability to grasp basic tactics in War zones

 

4.False notion from other MMORPG that DPS role is to Max Dps = Kill. In pvp DPS role is CONTROL ~ killing is just another CC and should be used as such.

 

So iam happy that BIOWARE waits with major changes/nerfs till they have full data , and more knowledge.

{lots of game where ruined by too hasted run into NERF/BUFF circle without fix for bugs , sometimes like in AoC and RiFt it was Nerf instead fix.}

 

Iam quite sure that THEY played this game differently than WE. So lets Focus on Bugs and leave Balance for later. When we will have full picture of whot THEY intended we will be able to star articulate what WE expect from game.

 

cheers

[Murkyone]

I've seen plenty of shield procs from tanks.

 

Really?

 

Pics for proof please. I have a 50 JG and am currently leveling a Vanguard tank as well.

 

Explain to us what a shield proc actually looks like.

[Murkyone]

2. Tanking is something that you DO. Not gear or class. Its mindset , style , tactics.

 

Any MMO I've ever played, back to vanilla EQ, (yes, I'm old), tanks have always been the most gear dependent class and that's why when guilds first start raiding, the MT get's first dibs on tank gear.

 

So even though I do agree with the whole playstyle and mindset topic, I strongly disagree that gear is low priority for tanking.

[FranzK]

Any MMO I've ever played, back to vanilla EQ, (yes, I'm old), tanks have always been the most gear dependent class and that's why when guilds first start raiding, the MT get's first dibs on tank gear.

 

So even though I do agree with the whole playstyle and mindset topic, I strongly disagree that gear is low priority for tanking.

 

My Point Was = Heavy Armour or Tank Gear does not tank make.

 

Obviously Gear is important tool for Tanks and we are gear dependant in PVE.

 

For example = Alderaan Civi War.

 

Situation - Your team have right - left is contested. I can spend whole game on bersek pointless run on middle . IF they had to leave 3 guards on it i did my job as tank. Does not to req to be spec as tank or geared as tank.

[Kaedea]

Really?

 

Pics for proof please. I have a 50 JG and am currently leveling a Vanguard tank as well.

 

Explain to us what a shield proc actually looks like.

 

A big blue sphere that appears over your char. Its not hard to miss.

[Murkyone]

A big blue sphere that appears over your char. Its not hard to miss.

 

I can honestly say I've never seen a shield like that pop up over my guardian tank unless it's from my blade barrier.

 

I thought the other guy was speaking of OH shield procs.

[Psycholex]

A big blue sphere that appears over your char. Its not hard to miss.

 

= Guard...

[BlobbMonster]

My Point Was = Heavy Armour or Tank Gear does not tank make.

 

Obviously Gear is important tool for Tanks and we are gear dependant in PVE.

 

For example = Alderaan Civi War.

 

Situation - Your team have right - left is contested. I can spend whole game on bersek pointless run on middle . IF they had to leave 3 guards on it i did my job as tank. Does not to req to be spec as tank or geared as tank.

 

The problem is that a DPS class can do a Tank's job just as well in PvP.

 

For example, Tank specced Juggernaut vs Rage (DPS) specced Juggernaut:

The PvP gear for both of these classes have the SAME Endurance and SAME armor, and the defense/shield stats only work on about 15-20% of attacks.

 

This means that the person with the DPS spec and DPS gear will have the same or nearly the same survivability as the person with the tank spec and tank gear—and the DPS person will still be able to taunt and guard like the tank, because the tank stance, guard, and taunts are all abilities that are given to the advanced class as a whole, and not individual specs.

 

However, the tank gear/spec person does not do anywhere near the same amount of DPS as the DPS specced/geared person.

 

So basically, people geared and specced for tanking are losing their offensive ability and are not getting any defensive ability in return (at least in PvP)! Because of this, there is literally no point in playing a Tank in PvP instead of a DPS class who also has guard/taunt.

Edited January 22, 2012 by BlobbMonster

[Is-ith]

Hey 2 cents

 

 

Iam quite sure that THEY played this game differently than WE. So lets Focus on Bugs and leave Balance for later. When we will have full picture of whot THEY intended we will be able to star articulate what WE expect from game.

 

cheers

 

 

Really?! your saying balancing the offense/defense and creating a real system of checks and balances shouldnt be on the top of the to do list?... Im not wanting this to be a flame forum but all i can say is what are you smoking. but really wake up and think b4 you type. the combat roll system and checks and balances of that system is the most influential part of the game and to ignore that would to only solidify my views of how seriously lacking Bioware is in their making of a so called great game.

 

Bioware i heard great things about u and your games. However the topic described above in this post and my previous should be on the top of your to do list. To do anything else is just further dragging your name through the mud. So please live up to your reputation and fix this HUGE issue

Edited January 22, 2012 by Is-ith

[fyrephly]

I know manuals aren't always reliable, but take a look at the Character Sheet from the Game Manual:

 

http://www.swtor.com/gamemanual/how-to-play/character-sheet

 

Are the Shield stats the only ones missing?

[Fdzzaigl]

Bleeds (internal) and Magic (elemental) have been the bane of tanks since MMOs began, and for that matter since RPGs began.

 

It's completely intentional and should be there.

 

And I play an Immortal Juggernaut as my main.

 

The difference being that everyone has tech/force abilities and many of these are used almost exclusively in many classes' rotations. And the class (Sorc) that only uses those is one of the most populous classes.

 

Secondly, the endurance and health surplus tanks have compared to other classes is not that huge to make up for it.

 

There's something wrong when you live almost equally long in tank gear and spec than you would in DPS gear and spec.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[angrydurf]

How about because PvP in MMO's is horrible and balance near impossible while retaining traditional MMO roles?

 

DPS specs are always drastically superior in PvP or healers in group encounters, tanks have no place in PvP design. Let taunt lock players targeting to you for the duration of a the taunts effect, let Threat mods translate into bonus damage in PvP and you'll start to see tanks begin to matter.

 

As for your core complaint it basically is supposed to come down to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock. Tanks have very good mitigation VS. melee/ranged DPS, poor mitigation vs. force/tech oriented classes. Sorcs/sages have poor mitigation vs. melee/ranged DPS but decent mitigation against force/tech. So the design is that the sorcs/sages should be jumped by sents/marauders/commandos/mercs and get destroyed. Tanks should target those sents/marauders/commandos/mercs as their mitigation is very good against those classes. And in turn tanks get jumped by sorcs/sages.

 

This in practice of course doesn't work as the tanks hit like wet tissue paper so find themselves in a pretty even fight with sents/marauders/commandos/mercs and still destroyed by Tech/force attacks. the exception might be Shadow tanks who do alot of force damage and rely more on powers for mitigation than armor or shield/defense. thus why it's rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock and not just rock-paper-scissors. Now some will say killing isn't the goal of tanks in PvP but they really lack the tools to truely tank. Guard works OK but Taunts get ignored most of the time and while they may help protect your team it feels like defeat when you pretty much best case scenario sit out on the field and soak up a bit of damage before dying. Frankly it feels much the same playing a healer but at least healers get the credit for good heals from teammates, guard/taunt is rarely noticed.

[Migrayn]

It is kind of odd that the best defence in the game is a sorc shield. It blocks ALL damage yet a tank can only defend against about 20% of attacks in pvp. I see more sorcs sprint the ball to the goal with their shield up. If their shield only blocked weapon and ranged attacks you would see huge outcrys of how gimped they are. Yet for tanks thats fine. Really?

 

Tank trees should have a way to absorb or shield all attacks. I dont mean 100% but a small portion. Even 5-10% to al damage would make them more tanky. Put it high in the tree so dps specs cant get it.

[Is-ith]

How about because PvP in MMO's is horrible and balance near impossible while retaining traditional MMO roles?

 

DPS specs are always drastically superior in PvP or healers in group encounters, tanks have no place in PvP design. Let taunt lock players targeting to you for the duration of a the taunts effect, let Threat mods translate into bonus damage in PvP and you'll start to see tanks begin to matter.

 

As for your core complaint it basically is supposed to come down to rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock. Tanks have very good mitigation VS. melee/ranged DPS, poor mitigation vs. force/tech oriented classes. Sorcs/sages have poor mitigation vs. melee/ranged DPS but decent mitigation against force/tech. So the design is that the sorcs/sages should be jumped by sents/marauders/commandos/mercs and get destroyed. Tanks should target those sents/marauders/commandos/mercs as their mitigation is very good against those classes. And in turn tanks get jumped by sorcs/sages.

 

This in practice of course doesn't work as the tanks hit like wet tissue paper so find themselves in a pretty even fight with sents/marauders/commandos/mercs and still destroyed by Tech/force attacks. the exception might be Shadow tanks who do alot of force damage and rely more on powers for mitigation than armor or shield/defense. thus why it's rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock and not just rock-paper-scissors. Now some will say killing isn't the goal of tanks in PvP but they really lack the tools to truely tank. Guard works OK but Taunts get ignored most of the time and while they may help protect your team it feels like defeat when you pretty much best case scenario sit out on the field and soak up a bit of damage before dying. Frankly it feels much the same playing a healer but at least healers get the credit for good heals from teammates, guard/taunt is rarely noticed.

 

Lol saying balancing is impossible is a complete and utter cop out. Yes it might take a little brain power but it's far from impossible. You simply have to have multiple stats (probably around 4 or 5 maybe more) stats for each offense and defense. Have each of these have a specific function along with weaknesses and strengths. The BIGGEST thing is not to make 1 stat the god mode of pvp ( expertise) like really what the **** were u thinking bioware. when one stat gives defenses, healing, and offensive increases its a bad system... simple as that. Any decent Pvper knows ( esperially with the diminishing returns aspect) that u don't just stack 1 offensive/ defensive stat for instance crit. U have to spread out your stats to minimize diminishing returns along with maximizing your your chances through stacking stats on the different levels of the rolling system so that if one of your defenses or offensive rolls miss then you have a backup. however bioware is having us stack for pvp mainly this one stat (expertise) which is rediculous. This should apply for both offense and defense rolls if u want a brief discription of a decent system of checks and balances check my previous post ( my first post on this forum topic). And tanks can function very well in pvp the problem normally is u have dumb ***es that have no clue how they need to play a tank to maximize efficiency. And another problem is the typical gamer mentality that goes something like this... Player 1 writes something on the forums player 2 to reads player 1's post player 2 repeats player 1's post not really thinking or the main aspect which is TESTing the issue or idea out for yourself. This has been the bane of tanks because players complain how tanks can't ever die because some decent players that actually know how to play their class wipes the floor with the majority of the noobs trying to kill him. As a result tanks get nurfed and stay that way throughout all other mmo's. Yes I'm saying a tank ( and any other class with a person that knows how to play that class perfectly)that knows how to play his class should be able to stand in a 2v1 (maybe 3v1 if your fighting total idiots) fight against the majority of mmo players simply because of their incompetence and inability to maximize their potential with the class they are using ( this goes for offense defense and healing classes).

 

The reason dps classes are the king of pvp is because it's the easiest to learn/ know how to play and thus everyone can pretty much maximize their classes potential. On the other hand the defense and healing classes are typically the harder class's to learn to maximize their potential but once learned how to play one of these classes ( and IF the classes are balanced correctly which they aren't in swtor) you have a huge gap between u and other tanks if u r a tank or other healers if your a healer also through in all the idiots that don't know how to play their professions ( dps, tank, or healer) that have big mouths and u got a nurf system that stupifies the mmo. Which swtor has given into... I mean the fun is testing out the differen stats to find the one setup that fits your playstyle and plays perfectly into the rolling and diminishing returns system. The creativity and hard work is what should be king in pvp wether that means if your a tank dps or healer u should rule at Pvp not the big mouth idiots that don't know how to play ther classes so they whine about it like babies until bioware gives it to them.

 

I don't care if 1 guy is able to take 3 ppl out by himself if he is Playing his class to perfection then great. That is his reward. however it shouldnt be easy to find that perfect combination that fits the 3 main things most important to ones build, which is your play style, the diminishing returns system, and the combat rolling system in fact it should be extremely difficult, complex and time consuming testing out all these different setups to find that little happy place. however It is also rewarding to know you are having a 1v1 with another top notch player because if both ppl r playing their class to the fullest it should be about luck and who made the first mistake. <----- this is a truely fun experience but is limited by the game and the good or poor mechanics that it has or doesn't have.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Is-ith