ok thanks alot for all the info

so i have been looking around and i havent been able to find out if the shadow has more or less DOTs as the sage does... anyone able to answer this question?

So im confused on why i should chose sage balance rather than shadow because it seems like shadow has everything going for it.

your question is a very good one these other two individuals trying to answer you are doing so without actually looking at what the stats say. So i will try to articulate the delema better. This is something that i have wondered myself for a long time but this is what i got for you... Rocket punch is a melee attack since it has a 4m range. For VG/PT strength increases melee damage and melee crit so from my position and from a technically position Rocket Punch should be affected by strength however you never really know what weird things Bioware will do so my answer to you isn't 100% unless a dev comes out and explains it.

this is actually an interesting question because the answer is really a non answer in the sense that there is at least halfway viable specs for both pure tank or hybrids. it really depends on what type of role you want to play with your tank.

Umm sniper/gunslingers squishy? i would like to know what you are smoking because whatever it is it must be some good stuff.

Im sorry when i was saying best mitigation i ment best passive mitgation which is far better than burt imo (obviously if they are set up correctly which BW never does)... And yes VG has always been advertised as best passive mitigation And saying TOR's roll system is good because its better than WoW's is like saying i only killed 5 people so i am a good person because Hitler killed millions. And the point that most people miss about combat roll systems is that people should be able to tank like a mofo and people should be able to be able to dps like a mofo because there is balance... (something most people dont really understand) If u tank like a beast then u should have no damage whatso ever. If you DPS like mad then you are paper... its pretty simple. As far ar the mechanics go most of the best attacks are force/tech so defense is off the table... Also most of the main/best attacks also have some sort of crit increase which pushes shield off the table... Pretty basic argument really i hope i dont have to go into further detail because we are kind of getting off topic.

I have played VG tank since the game started so I do have some bit of knowledge about the topic. In 2.0 VG gained some very needed help however it still didn't totally match up. Also on another note all the classes got 2x the buff we did and that is being modest. VG tanks have been ignored since the start. The VG tank class as I see it and how many others see it is that VG tanks are slow but sturdy and I am totally fine with VG being set up in that way however we are missing the sturdy part. The only thing VG tank has going for it is that we have snares, roots and stuns out the yin yang. Our ability to keep the enemy out of range is our only strength and is easily countered by a well played or half way intelligent player by simply snaring us. Which every class has easily accessible. Now isn't the above paragraph kind of out of place since bw has always stated that the VG has always suppose to be the best mitigation tank not the one with the best control. So if you can form this into one question then that is it lol... Got your work cut out for you. And dont even get me started on how extremely one sided the combat rolling system is. I Mean im sorry but it looks like a 3 year old wrote it... Simple is not better when it comes to this.

... Two thumbs down...

im sorry i hate a having a set rotation and think its completely ridiculous because pvp is fluid and if your doing the same thing over and over again you are predictable and thus easily countered. But since everyone seems to be obsessed with specific rotations i would have to say jump in there use some action with stokestrike or ion pulse then use 1 freeshot explosive surge spend more action with either HIB or ion pulse then use the other Free shot explosive surge... basically entertwine Free shots with your action costing abilities to get the most out of your energy bar (energy blast should obviously be used in the same way as the Free shots). Also then you can link your attacks that are on the GCD with your attacks that are off the GCD [shoulder Cannon,energy blast, taunt(s)]

what he was talking about on accuracy at least is pve only... your force and tech accuracy is innately 100%. thus the only way you miss is through them defending your attacks and even that isnt a big deal because tech and force attack negates defense chance all together which is pretty much all your attacks. The point... anyone telling you to stack accuracy on VG is probably someone you shouldnt listen to for pvp advise lol sorry. Some accuracy is ok i guess but you have better returns from stacking in other places.

well i guess all that is your choice i run with like 22% crit buffed not including skill tree or set bonus increases. so i can see the difference there but as far as defense goes it still only checks against ranged and melee attacks not tech and force thus your accuracy is worthless since accuracy only matters if defense is on the table. Plus tech/ force accuracy is 100% by defalt. Also it was shield chance that was changed to check against force and tech not defense. but just saying.

Ill just tell you how i tend to play my VG tank (ss spec) becasue its easier. Basically i try to be as tanky as i can ( of course) but i also try to get enough damage to actually be a threat and not just get ignored. The reason i use demolition is because of how much you can spam your elemental attacks in SS spec (with the free shots and energy blast) this makes you have huge amounty of energy if used correctly and thus im constantly using my elemental attacks and thus that demolition is very good. Also my explosive surge crits pretty regularly for 1500-1700 also ion pulse crits for about 1600-1900 Plus bout of these attacks apply the 5% damage debuff to all enemies hit by said attacks (this protection doesnt show up on the charts but its still very helpful to the team if the enemies are all working with debuffed damage on top of your taunts and guards. Also energy blast is an elemental attack Also accuracy is only good for non-force/tech attacks which pretty much all your attacks are tech so it totally bypasses accuracy. the only real increase accuracy helps on VG is HIB which stacking accuracy for one attack isnt worth it imo. I do put a point (s) into focused impact when i need a filler or have extra points but i still choose demolition over FI any day becasue of the above. But again it all comes down to play style so we can give you tips and hints but your the one that has to bet the setup you choose to work for ya. And again just to stress this topic... if you arent using the huge action pool of the vg and your letting it camp at max then your doing something wrong. ( yes i know you should keep it high because its a non-linear recharge rate but just stay within the good recharge rate just use that action) *Edit* something i forgot and one of the most important thing... Control is the VG's game its what we excel at. so i would encourage you to at least get the root for harpoon if not Neural overload as well just as a supplementing factor. Stay within the optimal range 5-9 meters so that the enemy cant just leap to you but u can attack them and then you can go in to do the hard melee hits as needed... the point is to keep his *** slowed lol.

ya everything is relative depending if u are going pvp or pve

firstly not getting sharp satchel is a mistake. secondly soldiers grit really isnt that great. also 1 point in pulse engine is more than enough IMHO because if your doing your job as a tank you are constantly taking damage almost and thus your pulse engine triggers pretty easily even with one point but thats up to u i guess and then decide what you like. Also i would get demolition over focused inpact any day. As to your actual question... i would probably put points in frontline offense rather than endurance because you should be spamming ion pulse sense SS has so much energy. More endurance is nice but i feel like points are better spent in other places as i described and if you have gone over all that and have extra then go endurance

umm i have never even heard about what you are talking about and i have played vanguard/powertech since launch. the only thing im aware of is that their is a shielding animation.

well if you have ever played jugg or guard the bubble they get from their force scream/ blade storm is about double i would say the vanguard bubble from tactics line.

lets first get this out of the way about smashers... if you havent seen anything above 6k smashes that your either playing on a pve/RP server or the people you are playing with are just terrible at their class. secondly other tanks like juggs/guardians have amazing slows as well however most that dont know how to play their class dont really use them enough so a well played jugg or guardian negates your own snares. secondly smash isnt the only hard hitting attack they have lol. One example is force scream which hits like a truck since its force it doesnt get checked by defence chance which leaves only shield chance which is negated my crits which as a dpser happen somewhat often. As far as our shield CD juggs have 2 shields (one decreasing all damage by 40%) along with thier other panic buttons VG has shield and then oil slick plus adrenaline rush which is negated if u are around any decent aoe or anyone at all is targeting you (that is halfway compotent)... i say this becasue at 30% is when all the finishing moves are availible which im sure i dont have to tell u hit like a *********** freight train. i agree that VG has certain things its good at and i have said that before but sometimes people with little brains get all flustered and start to get tunnel vision so i understand your arguments in that sense. The fact of the matter and this can be confirmed by other posts from others as well that the other tank classes have better CD's than VG and more of them. also VG is supposedly the best passive mitigation tank out their which i agree that it is very good in that sense and thant is what makes it an amazing PVE tank however just look at the jugg/guard tank tree and you will see that VG is surpassed by all of their passive mitigation from their tree. now to look at the assassin/shadow tank tree. the shadow is a little bit of a different type of tank in how it plays but again even in the tank tree itself we can see that it beats out the VG tree by a pretty significant amount. plus they get some interesting percs as well including being able to stealth and their normal CD's or panic buttons. again VG tank has a place in the game but adding up the strengths of the dpsers and tanks in this game we can pretty obviously see that it does have some sort of step down from at least the other tanks in the game and if you deny this fact then their is no point in continueing this conversation becasue you must obviously not look at hard facts. argueing out of simple emotion and only from the view of your one specific standpoint is a terrible form of forming arguements. Now i hope i dont have to explain to you what makes up a good argument but looking at one side of things (looking only from the VG side of things) is one of the basics of how to create flawed arguments.

The key two words in my statement was end game. By this I mean rated pvp where people actually work together and actually know how to play there class well. Any decent team will have at least 2 smashers which hit for 7-10k each smash which is almost completely unmitigatable ( not going into specifics because I have in other posts). So the only real mitigation we got for it is our single shield CD compaired to other classes cd's . And BTW shadows get a pull as well along within other utility. Normal PvP u can hold your own as a tank if u set yourself up right but even then a lot of our defended ( defence and shield chance) are negated by factors that the hardest hitting abilities typically have which is either they are fore and tech attacks or they are crits. ( if your lost and don't understand what I'm referencing the go look at the combat rolling system and game mechanics

Both Shield and Defence have specific areas that they are good at a decent tank should have both not just stack one.

^This

lol bro u would have convinced me alot more without the video. All that video shows is how stupid this game is with balance... if u want to complain about something roll a VG tank at endgame pvp and see how u fair then lol.

unless you want a hard path of trying to figure out a spec to simply keep up with other tanks in end game pvp then i wouldnt roll a vanguard tank. if u like the challenge of being a good tank on the worst tank class in the game then by all means join me and we can figure it out lol but otherwise i would recomend against it

When are we finally going to get to see some real World pvp content? and no tatooine doesnt count. some real world pvp would fill a much needed void. what is everyones opinions? what type of world pvp would you guys like to see?

the thing u need to remember about pvp is that defense if totally negated by force and tech attacks (which are a large percentage of pvp) and then Shield chance is totally negated by Crit which the hardest hitting abilities normally have some type of crit bonus added to it somewhere in the different trees of the class. For example after a leap juggs/guards get an auto crit so their smash isnt defendable because its force attack and isnt shieldable because its a crit. so really in top tier pvp the defense and shield stats are pretty crappy. They do however have their certain situations where they provide a decent mitigation however this is a small area. Again and decent team in pvp will have at least 2 smashers that put out 7-10k each hit of almost completely unmitigated damage.