Gunryu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 facepalm thank you for proving you are just another WoW fanboy. yes it probably does fire now after they have been patching it for over 7 years. Actually I am quite bored of wow, thank you for pointing out that damn near every person defending this game is a uptight sterotyping jack ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkvolt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 BW has conceded they are not ready for 1.1, who cares what specific bug it was!!!???? And we know jack crap about what is really happening behind the scenes, it's pointless to speculate. As a career software engineer I am very satisfied somebody stopped the train before it came off the tracks. God knows SWTOR has lots of bugs, BW exercising some discipline in the name of quality assurance is something we should all celebrate. Hahaha, oh... thank you for that, I really needed a good laugh. Exercising discipline in the name of quality assurence, now there is the thought. Out of the door the game has been plagued by bugs that were reported to them during the very long beta period. They ignored their beta testers and feedback and released a software product that probably has more bugs than Windows ME. I cannot begin to imagine what their internal QA department looks like and what they did to test the game. A bug as obvious as guild member listing page indicates that some of the most common patterns in MMO were not tested, or were tested but bugs took a back burner in lieu of putting more voice overs in. Give me a break. I guarantee you, they will release the 1.1 and then 1.2 will be bug fixes for 1.1, 1.3 will be fixing crap they broke in 1.2, and on and on and on we go. If the quality is not there to start with, you can't patch the quality in. A crappy code is crappy code and bad architecture is bad architecture. If you are software engineer you know exactly what I am talking about. From Hero engine being such a cop out to all the problems with the game, I doubt you will see the quality you're expecting any time soon. You may see more obvious bugs disappear, but I guarantee you others will take their place. Whatever their reason for delaying I don't really care, personally. I will stay subscribed for a month or two to see where this game goes, but as it is right now I don't even feel like logging in anymore. I'll waste $30 to see if things do improve, hell I already wasted $169 for CE. I doubt though that they will bring quality as quickly as people expect it. The game needs some serious overhauling of subsystems and there just isn't enough time to do it right now. And no, throwing more development resources will not solve inherent system problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quijibotu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This bugs me because I didn't have beta access. Everyone says "Reported in beta, never fixed" I don't understand how both ability lag and the default UI made it to live without the entire beta forums being FLOODED with complaints. Either the testers didn't raise as big of a fuss as they should have, or their work was for naught. That's the ironic thing. The forums 'were' flooded. They either a) had other priorities or b) found it too difficult to trace the source of the bugs or c) didn't give a rat's ###. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunsoar Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Seems like the way they treated beta is how they're treating our live patches. Don't worry a lot of these issues have been around for almost a year or longer! They will be fixed...eventually, because they care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quijibotu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ok, FPS issues. Hacking through Rifts servers to hack peoples accounts (A Rift player had to find it). Server downtime a lot. (With crashes) Too much lag when people were in the zones. Need I go on? You can go on but I fail to see you mention one bug, at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdoll Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 "Ok let's fix the unharvestable nodes" "Is it fixed?" "Yep" *launches the patch* *Code breaks* That's 1 way you are presenting it the other is this..... "Is it fixed?" "Yep" *does another patch* "That last bug the code broke so it isn't fixed" "Well screw it launch the patch we will still say it's fixed" Both ways sound really stupid. Pretty much how every company works, sorry its the truth. But, once the node is fixed why should they go back and test it in a later patch? They prob dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunsoar Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hahaha, oh... thank you for that, I really needed a good laugh. Exercising discipline in the name of quality assurence, now there is the thought. Out of the door the game has been plagued by bugs that were reported to them during the very long beta period. They ignored their beta testers and feedback and released a software product that probably has more bugs than Windows ME. I cannot begin to imagine what their internal QA department looks like and what they did to test the game. A bug as obvious as guild member listing page indicates that some of the most common patterns in MMO were not tested, or were tested but bugs took a back burner in lieu of putting more voice overs in. Give me a break. I guarantee you, they will release the 1.1 and then 1.2 will be bug fixes for 1.1, 1.3 will be fixing crap they broke in 1.2, and on and on and on we go. If the quality is not there to start with, you can't patch the quality in. A crappy code is crappy code and bad architecture is bad architecture. If you are software engineer you know exactly what I am talking about. From Hero engine being such a cop out to all the problems with the game, I doubt you will see the quality you're expecting any time soon. You may see more obvious bugs disappear, but I guarantee you others will take their place. Whatever their reason for delaying I don't really care, personally. I will stay subscribed for a month or two to see where this game goes, but as it is right now I don't even feel like logging in anymore. I'll waste $30 to see if things do improve, hell I already wasted $169 for CE. I doubt though that they will bring quality as quickly as people expect it. The game needs some serious overhauling of subsystems and there just isn't enough time to do it right now. And no, throwing more development resources will not solve inherent system problems. This, definitely this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunryu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This, definitely this. Yeah, why bother having beta or ptr if you won't listen to the people testing your stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sometouw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think what this boils down too, is don't schedule server maintenance until your ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanniSilvante Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sucks that brackets are being pushed back. I was hoping tonight would be the last time I'd have to deal with a 50 Operative 3 shotting me every 10 seconds. Ah well, just won't pvp till the patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlejedigavin Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The first cracks in the foundation appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think what this boils down too, is don't schedule server maintenance until your ready. And don't give a patch date. Stuff can go bad late and if you are committed to a date you get this reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthdoll Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 And don't give a patch date. Stuff can go bad late and if you are committed to a date you get this reaction. What more do YOU want? Dont release a patch date, and everyone hates you. Dont release a patch due to bugs when you said it would be released, and everyone hates you... No winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ypsan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @ArodinIt's not incompetence but business strategy. It's either retention or expansion. Company needs to prioritize between the two. Trion with Rift focused on retaining its player base which resulted in timely patches and fixes in an effort to improve the quality of the existing game. Slow content updates is the downside. If the company aims at expansion over retention then advertising and new content is where the resources go. Bringing new players is more important than retaining existing ones. Hope that makes sense, I'm getting tired. Time for bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorheece Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Over a month now and still not a single patch (except less than a handful of hotfixes.). Well done, BioWare... is sarcasm still wasted on the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What more do YOU want? Dont release a patch date, and everyone hates you. Dont release a patch due to bugs when you said it would be released, and everyone hates you... No winning. I would never release a specific patch date EVER in an MMO. Too much can go wrong and you get killed if you then miss that date. You release it when it is ready and folks will know the patch is here when they read the patch notes. I understand why they wanted to hype this patch, but the reaction you see now is the risk you take when you do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalliah Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well... Lots of upset people. My 5 cents. Oh there was patch scheduled tonight that is not happening? Oh, okay...*shrug* At least I get to play for a bit longer now before going to sleep. Back to the game now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bliapis Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Great, I planned on cleaning up, feeding myself, washing my nether regions during downtime on my day off tomorrow - guess that'll have to be postponed till next week also. lewl! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkvolt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What more do YOU want? Dont release a patch date, and everyone hates you. Dont release a patch due to bugs when you said it would be released, and everyone hates you... No winning. There is winning and it's called communicating with your customers. You keep your customers in the loop and make them feel that they are listened to, that their constant reporting and feedback has some bearing on the quality of the product. The way things are going on here on the forums, people start endless threads about exploits, bugs, issues, problems of all kinds and not a single community representative makes themselves known to say "We will forward your information to the development team", or a simple "We are aware of that particular issue and are working on resolving it". Nope, they only make themselves known to us when some thread needs to be locked or deleted. What kind of customer service is that? In LOB (Line of Business) applications if your customer kept submitting support tickets and sending your client services email upon email and all they got is silence treatement, they would show up with their legal team to discuss their SLA and breach their contract due to noncompliance or something. There is no excuse for being lazy and they can win by starting to be more upfront with us and by communicating instead of hiding behind invisible wall of forum mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxili Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm starting to get the feeling that Bioware can't handle this type of game. I love their games (except for Dragon Age 2) but an MMO is a completely different animal. Most companies that make MMOs are built from the ground-up as an MMO company. Even Blizzard had to totally reinvent itself when they made WoW -- they threw their whole company behind it, and they didn't make another game (not counting WoW expansions) for six years until they finally came out with Starcraft 2. Bioware meanwhile is spread very thin, trying to manage an MMO on top of producing Mass Effect 3, a new Dragon Age game in the works, a Command & Conquer game and who knows what else. I know it's all different teams, but it's still one company juggling all of these balls and certain important people, such as Ray and Greg and a lot of the most talented people in the company, are not available to devote their attention to this major project. I think they may have underestimated the work-load that goes into an MMO, and therefore have a team that is much too small to manage the game. Considering how many bugs the game has, the patch notes on 1.1 should be much longer. Stupid bugs like invisible weapons in cutscenes, companions wigging out on elevators, dialogue scenes with no dialogue options, etc. should have been stomped out by now. The patch notes for the first major WoW update was three times as long as SWTOR's 1.1, and IMO WoW had fewer problems to be fixed when it was released than SWTOR. My conclusion is that there just aren't enough people working on SWTOR because Bioware is spread too thin. Great point and totally correct. If bioware isn't willing to dedicate FULLY to SWTOR, then we cannot expect a product of similar cohesiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trienco Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Bioware meanwhile is spread very thin, trying to manage an MMO on top of producing Mass Effect 3, a new Dragon Age game in the works, a Command & Conquer game and who knows what else. That argument only works if you have insight into their teams. If they hire 50 more people to do ME3, how are they spread thin? If EA buys Bioware to turn it into the next CSI by slapping that name on a dozen new studios (that all have nothing to do with the "original" Bioware), how are they spread thin? Pretty much how every company works, sorry its the truth. But, once the node is fixed why should they go back and test it in a later patch? They prob dont. That's assuming that every error you observe in game has only ONE bug causing it. My favorite bug was more like this: "I found the reason and fixed it"... "Yay"... "Wait, it still happens sometimes"... "WHAT?... oh.. there are three more bugs causing the same issue" One reason never to have patch notes saying "We fixed issue X" but instead "Fixed _a_ bug resulting in X". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampfot Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There is winning and it's called communicating with your customers. You keep your customers in the loop and make them feel that they are listened to, that their constant reporting and feedback has some bearing on the quality of the product. The way things are going on here on the forums, people start endless threads about exploits, bugs, issues, problems of all kinds and not a single community representative makes themselves known to say "We will forward your information to the development team", or a simple "We are aware of that particular issue and are working on resolving it". Nope, they only make themselves known to us when some thread needs to be locked or deleted. What kind of customer service is that? In LOB (Line of Business) applications if your customer kept submitting support tickets and sending your client services email upon email and all they got is silence treatement, they would show up with their legal team to discuss their SLA and breach their contract due to noncompliance or something. There is no excuse for being lazy and they can win by starting to be more upfront with us and by communicating instead of hiding behind invisible wall of forum mods. Frankly I am a little shocked to see this in a game this big. With such a huge budget, how can the smaller equally important stuff be totally ignored. Customer service is one of the most important things when it comes to selling stuff, especially a subscription. On a sidenote: First time I saw the in-game auction house I got shivers down my spine. It felt like buying a gold bar and seeing the lead shine through. The small stuff really matters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibuki Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I don't want to sub for a month to see if this patch is worth the money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkvolt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 That's assuming that every error you observe in game has only ONE bug causing it. My favorite bug was more like this: "I found the reason and fixed it"... "Yay"... "Wait, it still happens sometimes"... "WHAT?... oh.. there are three more bugs causing the same issue". Which is indication of a rigid and fragile architecture and is two of the five most common indicators for unsound system design. Lack of separation of concerns will lead to exactly what you pointed out. I would assume that the game of this scope and size would be built on proven patterns and practices not done in a cowboy coding manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxili Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There is winning and it's called communicating with your customers. You keep your customers in the loop and make them feel that they are listened to, that their constant reporting and feedback has some bearing on the quality of the product. The way things are going on here on the forums, people start endless threads about exploits, bugs, issues, problems of all kinds and not a single community representative makes themselves known to say "We will forward your information to the development team", or a simple "We are aware of that particular issue and are working on resolving it". Nope, they only make themselves known to us when some thread needs to be locked or deleted. What kind of customer service is that? In LOB (Line of Business) applications if your customer kept submitting support tickets and sending your client services email upon email and all they got is silence treatement, they would show up with their legal team to discuss their SLA and breach their contract due to noncompliance or something. There is no excuse for being lazy and they can win by starting to be more upfront with us and by communicating instead of hiding behind invisible wall of forum mods. Great post, well written. I've quoted it in one of the threads in my sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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