Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[wikimon]

If you can't tell that an idiot went afk without meters you you have bigger issues than needing meters. Especially since ALL combat moves in this game are active, meaning there are no auto attacks. Even in a game with auto attacks you could tell if someone went afk in combat unless you were staring at your ui instead of paying attention to the game.

 

Drinking bird the 1 key. oh look my char is just as active as anyone else now.

 

barring that just be bad at your character and not perform a rotation. now you're 500dps behind anyone actually playing and causing raid wipes

[wikimon]

You know what I take away from that?

 

1- The raid met its goals (they downed whatever).

2- Without meters, you never would have known about the DPS discrepancy.

3- The Shadow Priest might have eventually chatted with you guys, asked questions, and learned how to play his class.

4- All of you might have had an actual social experience.

 

But no. Meter, measure, kick. Label someone a "bad". Well done. I'm sure he improved because of the meter.

 

I swear, you WoWtards are a blight on gaming.

 

you wouldn't kick a shadow priest for sucking at his class on content where it didn't matter. on content where it DOES matter he's stopping the rest of you from getting the gear you actually came for.

 

since when does the welfare of one trump that of 9-39 other people?

 

more importantly, what kind of dip doesn't know how to play his character and joins a raid fully intending to weigh other people down?

 

you didn't think this through at all did you?

[Zaskaszh]

False; that attitude existed in EQ long before WoW was launched. You're just looking back at EQ through rose tinted glasses.

 

I'm really not; I've played pretty much every MMO ever made, even the proto ****** ones like Auto Assault (which, damnit, was actually kinda fun!). I don't remember running into much elitism in your run of the mill EQ player (we're not talking Fires of Heaven elitism here), or DAoC players for that matter. Even the sort of attitude you see in EVE Online, which is a haven for egos, isn't as petty and infantile as what you saw in WoW.

[Zaskaszh]

In-game or not it needs to be an option for those that want access to it. Transparency is never bad by and of itself. The general arguement against a recount like feature uses the inherent negatives of human beings in general.

 

How can you not have figured this out yet? If there's a quick 'n easy way or a hard but super fun way to obtain gear, stats, a title, a mount, ANYTHING...players will overwhelmingly take the quick and easy way.

 

If something CAN be abused, it WILL be abused.

 

If something CAN lead to e-peenery, it WILL lead to e-peenery.

 

You can't trust players to make the moral, right, human choice. Sorry, but that's just incredibly naive.

 

The only way to prevent "Recount E-peenery Abuse" is to never allow it into the game to begin with.

[Buur]

How can you not have figured this out yet? If there's a quick 'n easy way or a hard but super fun way to obtain gear, stats, a title, a mount, ANYTHING...players will overwhelmingly take the quick and easy way.

 

If something CAN be abused, it WILL be abused.

 

If something CAN lead to e-peenery, it WILL lead to e-peenery.

 

You can't trust players to make the moral, right, human choice. Sorry, but that's just incredibly naive.

 

The only way to prevent "Recount E-peenery Abuse" is to never allow it into the game to begin with.

 

It must suck to have your view of things.

[Zaskaszh]

you wouldn't kick a shadow priest for sucking at his class on content where it didn't matter. on content where it DOES matter he's stopping the rest of you from getting the gear you actually came for.

 

since when does the welfare of one trump that of 9-39 other people?

 

more importantly, what kind of dip doesn't know how to play his character and joins a raid fully intending to weigh other people down?

 

you didn't think this through at all did you?

 

I did. I play games to have fun, and the act of raiding itself is the reward. The encounter is what's fun. If we win the fight and get the drops, bonus! Now, if this theoretical shadow priest is that inexperienced, you take him on the raid and coach him on how to get better. It works, I've done it countless times in countless MMOs, and I've never used any kind of meter or gauge or whatnot. So you telling me it's a mistake is really quite funny, because I've lived it and already proven you wrong. It just takes patience and perspective.

 

If, after several botched attempts, things don't improve with him, THEN I would suggest that maybe he needs to practice some more on some less challenging encounters. But, being the mature adult I am, I wouldn't just kick him out as soon as some software told me his numbers weren't up to some theoretical standard.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Moitteva
inappropriate content

[Zentiviax]

I think I have a solution to public parse data that can be implimented in a way that will not foster negative intent and traits towards others in raids / encounters.

 

Add a public tracking and parsing system for guilds only. So you can open your tracker and view results of a raid / encounter but will only show your guild mates, so you can atleast have some comparatie data, but will ensure that these comparisons stay between "friends".

 

The main issues stemmed from raid pareses are usually in PUG raids where the leader(s) of the raid have high stipulations...

 

thoughts?

[Zaskaszh]

It must suck to have your view of things.

 

I'm what you could call a disappointed optimist; I'd like to believe in the average MMO player, but unfortunately real world experience and evidence has proven my previous statements quite correct.

[Malkosha]

No.

 

All of the little Mini-Generals with delusions of Godhood can byte me ... and my little dog too.

 

Finally, the MMORPG community got a game that's about your chars story. The last thing we need is to convert our chars into spreadsheets so little dictators can adjust the group to their level of expectation.

[Buur]

No.

 

All of the little Mini-Generals with delusions of Godhood can byte me ... and my little dog too.

 

Finally, the MMORPG community got a game that's about your chars story. The last thing we need is to convert our chars into spreadsheets so little dictators can adjust the group to their level of expectation.

 

Your story ends after you finish your class quests. Should people stop playing then?

[CapitaFK]

Parsing is an extremely effective way to judge the overall mathematical performance of a class. This means taking out all speculation on whether or not a class is overpowered or underpowered. Seeing two classes being played over a multitude of parse samples with a consistent 15-30% disparity between their damage or healing allows the community to point out to the devs that so-and-so class is overpowered or underpowered. Parses serve as empirical proof of said claim, thus eliminating heated debates over nothing but speculation.

 

You could try to argue target dummies and whatnot, but that's standstill button mashing. Bosses require movement, and DPS suffers due to movement. Balancing through real raiding is more important than balancing through target dummies, and parsing is the only way to do this. You can also argue that devs would see such a disparity, but over a decade of MMO gaming has told us otherwise.

 

So aside from the benefit of guilds gauging the performance of their members, parsing also serves the purpose of balancing. At the moment, we have no real way to tell which class is overpowered or underpowered in a raid setting. We have no way to tell if Operatives/Scoundrels, being very strong in PVP, would become completely useless in PVE should their burst be nerfed. All of you against parsing, go ahead and state your argument, but I doubt it would disprove anything that I've said.

[Krazeh]

I did. I play games to have fun, and the act of raiding itself is the reward. The encounter is what's fun. If we win the fight and get the drops, bonus! Now, if this theoretical shadow priest is that inexperienced, you take him on the raid and coach him on how to get better. It works, I've done it countless times in countless MMOs, and I've never used any kind of meter or gauge or whatnot. So you telling me it's a mistake is really quite funny, because I've lived it and already proven you wrong. It just takes patience and perspective.

 

If, after several botched attempts, things don't improve with him, THEN I would suggest that maybe he needs to practice some more on some less challenging encounters. But, being the mature adult I am, I wouldn't just kick him out as soon as some software told me his numbers weren't up to some theoretical standard.

 

That's the difference between an adult who holds gaming in its proper perspective, and a WoWtard who thinks "GIMME THAT LEWTZ NAO!!!!"

 

Perhaps you'd like to explain how you couldn't do exactly the same with a tool like recount? And possibly have any easier time helping out because you've got some actual figures to work from? You don't think that in the absence of things like recount people won't just find other reasons to kick people they don't think are pulling their weight?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Krazeh

[Vlaid]

Yes. I 100% support a Damage Meter of some kind.

 

To be blunt, PVE in a MMO is 100% pointless if you don't have one.

 

How can you tell DPS to do better at DPS to beat an enrage timer....if you won't let them have the tool they need to even know if they are doing less or more?

 

You simply can not have enrage timers and anything that challenges damage as a way of testing and rewarding skill without having a way to measure damage and similar factors.

 

Without a damage meter, to keep the facets you have in the game right now....you would have to delete the following stats: Power, Alacrity, Crit, Surge (and all base stats except Endurance). Because currently, there's absolutely no way to even know if using this stat or these stats is better. Everyone is just guessing and blindly gearing and hoping they get it right. It's absolute nonsense.

 

You just can't have a game the way this one is designed without a damage meter. HOWEVER it doesn't have to be a PUBLIC GROUP damage meter. It can be a personal statistic/tracking device (which ideally would have no option to post/send anywhere to keep the e-peen down a bit) so you can work on yourself. I do think however that the OPS leader of any operation should be able to see everyone's performance. Otherwise....it's just impossible to tell where improvements are needed if you can't tell who did nothing but hit 1 all operation long.

[wikimon]

I did. I play games to have fun, and the act of raiding itself is the reward. The encounter is what's fun. If we win the fight and get the drops, bonus!

 

you're more than welcome to make your own raids with no meter and coach as many shadow priests as you like.

 

nothing is stopping you.

[CapitaFK]

I did. I play games to have fun, and the act of raiding itself is the reward. The encounter is what's fun. If we win the fight and get the drops, bonus! Now, if this theoretical shadow priest is that inexperienced, you take him on the raid and coach him on how to get better. It works, I've done it countless times in countless MMOs, and I've never used any kind of meter or gauge or whatnot. So you telling me it's a mistake is really quite funny, because I've lived it and already proven you wrong. It just takes patience and perspective.

 

If, after several botched attempts, things don't improve with him, THEN I would suggest that maybe he needs to practice some more on some less challenging encounters. But, being the mature adult I am, I wouldn't just kick him out as soon as some software told me his numbers weren't up to some theoretical standard.

 

That's the difference between an adult who holds gaming in its proper perspective, and a WoWtard who thinks "GIMME THAT LEWTZ NAO!!!!"

 

I find this really ironic. On WoW I was my guild's Hunter class leader, and I was in charge of helping my guild Hunters improve. I've had Hunters who would come in wearing higher level gear with the assumption that it did better DPS because it was higher level, but Recount and the theorycrafting that resulted from its results showed that my lower level gear provided more DPS in the long run. It showed in the fights, where my DPS would be 1000-2000 more than the other Hunters, which allowed me to coach them.

 

I would have Hunters who would refuse my coaching because they thought their frame of thought was correct -- having higher level gear meant higher DPS -- but having Recount and World of Logs parses allowed me to disprove them. I know for a fact they wouldn't believe me until I had factual data to show them, and they would continue playing suboptimally until then. This is death to a progression raiding guild.

 

You know some people actually enjoy min/maxing as much as you enjoy doing whatever it is you like to do.

Edited January 17, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Malastare]

Absolutely not.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm strongly opposed to the hyper-competitive crowd that demands such things. While I'm normally a live-and-let-live sort of guy, the min-maxers and uber-elites have a tendency to ruin the games they drive. See, in a min-maxer's life, there is only a small handful of options for how a game can be played.

 

Yes, yes, I know: min-maxers are using their minds! They're looking for the best, most competitive builds and improving their skill!

 

No, they're not (in my opinion). They're parroting the same advice, leaning on technological crutches like Recount, and forcing the game to adapt to their behavior, regardless of how it affects other gamers. If they were as good as they claim they are, then they'd have no problem playing the game with less-than-perfect gear and parties. I'd rather try a party of all healer-hybrids, than the same party makeup that I used the last forty times I ran the Flashpoint (dictated by a spreadsheet, verified by repeated runs with a parser). I'll respect them more when they run their raids with a character that actually has personality (not blindly picking LS/DS or option 1) and gear that isn't the same as everyone else. Until then... just another brainless MMOCoD wannabe.

 

So, yeah, I support decisions that hamper or even annoy min-maxers and the "elite" crowd. For now, I just see them as a mob of people all playing the game in the same boring way. No thanks. I like my games to be fun. I like variety. I like adversity. I want my MMORPG to be an RPG, not some weak hack-n-slash tuned for losers running spreadsheets on their second monitor. There are games that do that. Feel free to play them. I'm even fine with them playing this game, I just think it would be nice if I could have one game that isn't dragged down into mind-numbing elitism to feed the egos of a immature gamers.

 

I wish it were the case that we could have it both ways. Looking at WoW, I'm not convinced. Recount and all the rest of the stupid addons turned that game into fantasy football with a weak RPG veneer. Yay. That's fantastic. Oh, wait. Time to press my macro button again so my DPS doesn't drop 2%.

[CapitaFK]

Absolutely not.

 

Why?

 

Because I'm strongly opposed to the hyper-competitive crowd that demands such things. While I'm normally a live-and-let-live sort of guy, the min-maxers and uber-elites have a tendency to ruin the games they drive. See, in a min-maxer's life, there is only a small handful of options for how a game can be played.

 

Yes, yes, I know: min-maxers are using their minds! They're looking for the best, most competitive builds and improving their skill!

 

No, they're not (in my opinion).

 

Your idea of fun is not another's idea of fun. I wonder when you lot will understand that. Min/maxers are there because they enjoy min/maxing as much as you enjoy casual raiding. You mention WoW, but it sounds like you're just letting it get to you on a personal level.

 

I was in a hardcore progression guild that aimed for world firsts (world top 100), and my brother was in a casual guild that didn't really care too much. My guild enjoyed and savored accomplishing server firsts. But the really funny thing is that my brother's guild enjoyed and savored every boss kill. I know, unbelievable right? It's unbelievable that one guild would enjoy one while another enjoyed another -- especially in the same game, on the same server. Who knew??

 

I had an alt in my brother's guild and they truly enjoyed just going out there and doing their thing -- whether or not they killed the boss they aimed for -- they enjoyed what they were doing. On the other side of the fence, my guild truly enjoyed going out there and aiming to be the best -- whether or not another guild beat us to the kill -- we enjoyed going to the spreadsheets and seeing what we could improve.

 

Two gameplay styles can fit into one game. You're the one letting it affect you.

Edited January 17, 2012 by CapitaFK

[TheSkate]

WoW's the game that popularized "add ons" which led millions of lazy players to think they were better than someone else because of a few DPS more. Let's keep that straight, shall we?

 

False; that attitude existed in EQ long before WoW was launched. You're just looking back at EQ through rose tinted glasses.

 

No. He was correct. WoW is the first game to popularize addons and meters. Other games may have had them, but WoW was the first game to make them damn near mandatory.

The main reason to have a SWTOR version of Recount is for dbags to stroke their epeen. "I'm doing more DPS than you. L2P noob." Meter watchers are usually not very nice to others. There may be a couple of exceptions to that, but not many.

If all you want is to know your DPS so you can improve, even a personal combat log or DPS meter is not needed to figure it out. A little bit of math skills is all you need. That and maybe FRAPS if you are unable to observe the damage you are doing in real time.

[CapitaFK]

A little bit of math skills is all you need.

 

Math? Really? If you knew anything about theorycrafting, you'd know this is impossible. At best, you would get a very rough estimate, and you would be extremely lucky to be within 10% of the actual value. Explain to me how you would calculate movement (exact distance moved, exact time traveled, number of abilities missed due to movement out of a maximum possible, etc.), actual crit percentage (not crit chance), actual buffed damage (including possible stacks and procs), etc.

 

Please, enlighten me.

 

P.S. I could get all of this information out of a single parse.

Edited January 17, 2012 by CapitaFK

[TheSkate]

Parsing is an extremely effective way to judge the overall mathematical performance of a class. This means taking out all speculation on whether or not a class is overpowered or underpowered. Seeing two classes being played over a multitude of parse samples with a consistent 15-30% disparity between their damage or healing allows the community to point out to the devs that so-and-so class is overpowered or underpowered. Parses serve as empirical proof of said claim, thus eliminating heated debates over nothing but speculation.

 

You could try to argue target dummies and whatnot, but that's standstill button mashing. Bosses require movement, and DPS suffers due to movement. Balancing through real raiding is more important than balancing through target dummies, and parsing is the only way to do this. You can also argue that devs would see such a disparity, but over a decade of MMO gaming has told us otherwise.

 

So aside from the benefit of guilds gauging the performance of their members, parsing also serves the purpose of balancing. At the moment, we have no real way to tell which class is overpowered or underpowered in a raid setting. We have no way to tell if Operatives/Scoundrels, being very strong in PVP, would become completely useless in PVE should their burst be nerfed. All of you against parsing, go ahead and state your argument, but I doubt it would disprove anything that I've said.

 

So you want in-game active parsing so that BioWare can start doing like Blzrd and have to buff and nerf every other class every other week. Or so that people can say "Sorry dude, sniper is not a good spec for this raid. You can't come with us. How about you roll a PT BH. Then you can go once it is geared up."

Good idea.

[wikimon]

The main reason to have a SWTOR version of Recount is for dbags to stroke their epeen. "I'm doing more DPS than you. L2P noob." Meter watchers are usually not very nice to others. There may be a couple of exceptions to that, but not many.

 

most biased opinion to recount i have ever seen

 

"the main reason people drive cars is to get drunk and run over children. there's a few people who actually use the cars to get to work, but most of them are highly sauced homicidal maniacs who are out to get your kids"

[wikimon]

So you want in-game active parsing so that BioWare can start doing like Blzrd and have to buff and nerf every other class every other week. Or so that people can say "Sorry dude, sniper is not a good spec for this raid. You can't come with us. How about you roll a PT BH. Then you can go once it is geared up."

Good idea.

 

and YOU would rather have the raid fail. furthermore you'd never know WHY it failed seeing as you wouldn't know the root cause of the failure (bad sniper dps) and you'd never have the information to get it fixed.

 

yes that looks like a grand improvement over the implausible fantasy situation you've created. the one that says sniper DPS is bad, we KNOW it's bad, YOU know it's bad but you still think you're entitled to joining the raid and making it fail.

 

awfully selfish of you

[Setanian]

HOWEVER it doesn't have to be a PUBLIC GROUP damage meter. It can be a personal statistic/tracking device (which ideally would have no option to post/send anywhere to keep the e-peen down a bit) so you can work on yourself. I do think however that the OPS leader of any operation should be able to see everyone's performance. Otherwise....it's just impossible to tell where improvements are needed if you can't tell who did nothing but hit 1 all operation long.

 

On a basic level, I agree with the above. The problem arises when Mr Elitist Jerk demands you send him your log before he allows you join his group.

 

As it is, it appears you are getting a personal combat log. I've no doubt you'll get a damage meter too at some point in the next year or 2. And after that something else. And we'll be right back to WoW in Space.

[Buur]

On a basic level, I agree with the above. The problem arises when Mr Elitist Jerk demands you send him your log before he allows you join his group.

 

As it is, it appears you are getting a personal combat log. I've no doubt you'll get a damage meter too at some point in the next year or 2. And after that something else. And we'll be right back to WoW in Space.

 

Most of the gameplay already is WoW in space. Just without any of the polish that made WoW successful.

[Stoux]

Just hit 50 two days ago, and I would really like a Meter. Spending 2 hours in a HM trying to drop a boss is really annoying when you don't even know who is not pulling enough dps to beat the enrage timer.

 

I pug every run as a tank so I can tell which healers suck and which don't and adjust my friends list accordingly. But when I have a guy apologize to me for not pulling the dps he needs to beat the boss it makes me cringe because he has no way of knowing that.

 

One guy stands out I have done 3 runs with him. First run we couldn't even kill the second boss of BT HM (first day I turned 50) The group was destroying every pull up to that. So I notice he is AoEing the boss instead of using his Single Target attacks, I mention this to him and he changes his bar to all his single target abilities.

 

Second, He tells me he looked at some guides and would I give him another chance at running HM's so I let him in the group and we just destroy everything in BP (except the last bugged boss... grrr) the healer and the other dps were different people from our first run.

 

Third, HM Battle of Ilum. We do okay on the first boss after three tries he chases this guy all the way to the start of the instance with 10% health left. We are able to kill him by spawning in and zerging him down. Last two bosses we get close but can't quite finish off. again the healer and the other dps are two different people from run 1 and 2.

 

Now I can't tell who is failing, and after spending 2+ hours in each of the FP's and I am just frustrated cause I don't know if it is me, him or the pug people. I like the guy and want to keep grouping with him but if it is him that sucks and makes it impossible to finish bosses then I am not going to waste my day trying to help him out.