Is TOR done growing?

[Akiva_IC]

Why do some many people get their rocks off saying "SWTOR will fail!!!"

 

I don't understand that. Clearly there are quite a few people who enjoy the game thoroughly and are in it for the long haul, but the most vocal protestors (i.e., the one's who think they're smarter than everyone else and come here because they just *have* to make sure everyone knows how *profound* their insights are ...) have to come here and rant.

 

If you don't like the game, STOP PLAYING. That doesn't mean it's a failure, that doesn't mean no one else can or should like it and that doesn't mean it's going to die.

 

Personally, I can't stand the CoD series, but there are tens of millions of people who think I'm crazy, apparently. Same thing here - just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad and doesn't mean it's going to fail. The Ford Taurus has sold umpteen bazillion cars, but I'd never buy one. It's not what I'm looking for. But, just because it's not what I'm looking for, doesn't mean it's not *exactly* what 30 million other people wanted.

 

The success or failure of something like this doesn't hinge on any one thing. If this game doesn't meet your PvP expectations, stop playing. It's brand new. Maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't. Just because it's not what you want doesn't mean it's bad.

 

Personally, I'm calling BS on every single on of the "OMG THIS GAME SUXXORS AND IS DOOMED!" threads after the 20th, for two reasons:

 

1) If you re-sub after the 20th but still don't like it, that just means your either stupid or a poser, or both. No room for you, even on the Internet. Only an idiot pays for and spends time doing something they don't like voluntarily.

 

2) If you *don't* re-sub after the 20th but still feel compelled to come to the forums of the game you're no longer playing to tell other people they shouldn't like their new toy because you don't ... well.. that's just a special kind of brain-dead.

 

Either way, so long haters. You won't be missed. At all.

[Red_Cruiser]

I thought KOTOR 1 and 2 were both about the same. I think the story dragged a lot more in parts of 1 more than in parts of 2. Taris was kind of boring for me. If KOTOR wasn't based off of the D20 ruleset, nobody would be talking about it today.

[imtrick]

I thought KOTOR 1 and 2 were both about the same. I think the story dragged a lot more in parts of 1 more than in parts of 2. Taris was kind of boring for me. If KOTOR wasn't based off of the D20 ruleset, nobody would be talking about it today.

 

Seriously (and yeah, I suppose this is way off-topic, but...)? I doubt many people who played it were even aware of that, or would care in the slightest.

[Jumajin]

That depends on what you are looking for.

 

If someone is looking for "the best MMO", then they might be disappointed, since that is entirely subjective.

 

I have a strong background in MMO's, but I didn't come to this game in search of "the best MMO". I came here looking for a fun, Star Wars game. The fact that it's a MMO is completely irrelevant to me, and whether or not there are "better" MMO's out there I really don't care.

 

I'm playing this game because I'm having fun. I'm playing this game because it's Star Wars. No other MMO available today has this combination.

 

Well put, and exactly my feelings on playing SWTOR. And, I too, have been playing MMOs for a while. Since the first year of EQ1.

 

If I want Azeroth (and want to worry about my e-peen), I will play WoW. If I want Batman as voiced by Kevin Conroy working with my character, I'll play DCUO. If I want to fall asleep playing a game, there is EVE.

 

I'm playing and having fun because it is Star Wars, and I think they captured the material very well.

 

I didn't come here looking for the "Best MMO" or the "Most Innovative MMO" or the "WoW Killing MMO". I came here to play Star Wars. I paid $60 for the box, and $15/mo for the subscription, to play Star Wars.

 

I'm getting what I paid for. End of post.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Jumajin

[Barracudastr]

Then why aren't you playing that game?

 

Aion died in the US because it sucked.

 

I just said that.... are you stupid or something lol?

[Barracudastr]

And if only a few thousand unsub?

 

Try not stating opinion as fact in the future; it hurts your argument.

 

I didn't state anything as fact or opinion really, i was reply to someone and you jumped in and took as fact.

 

Try reading and comprending the convo before qouting and replying it hurts your argument.

[Ashirae]

Honestly come the 20th they will lose a massive amount of subs.

 

Then in about 3 months they will lose even more to tera, (mainly pvper's that know what tera is).

 

Then later this year the rest that aren't total 100% into swtor will drift off to play GW2 when its released.

 

TERA hasn't announced a beta in North America yet.

[Barracudastr]

Why do some many people get their rocks off saying "SWTOR will fail!!!"

 

I don't understand that. Clearly there are quite a few people who enjoy the game thoroughly and are in it for the long haul, but the most vocal protestors (i.e., the one's who think they're smarter than everyone else and come here because they just *have* to make sure everyone knows how *profound* their insights are ...) have to come here and rant.

 

If you don't like the game, STOP PLAYING. That doesn't mean it's a failure, that doesn't mean no one else can or should like it and that doesn't mean it's going to die.

 

Personally, I can't stand the CoD series, but there are tens of millions of people who think I'm crazy, apparently. Same thing here - just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad and doesn't mean it's going to fail. The Ford Taurus has sold umpteen bazillion cars, but I'd never buy one. It's not what I'm looking for. But, just because it's not what I'm looking for, doesn't mean it's not *exactly* what 30 million other people wanted.

 

The success or failure of something like this doesn't hinge on any one thing. If this game doesn't meet your PvP expectations, stop playing. It's brand new. Maybe it'll change. Maybe it won't. Just because it's not what you want doesn't mean it's bad.

 

Personally, I'm calling BS on every single on of the "OMG THIS GAME SUXXORS AND IS DOOMED!" threads after the 20th, for two reasons:

 

1) If you re-sub after the 20th but still don't like it, that just means your either stupid or a poser, or both. No room for you, even on the Internet. Only an idiot pays for and spends time doing something they don't like voluntarily.

 

2) If you *don't* re-sub after the 20th but still feel compelled to come to the forums of the game you're no longer playing to tell other people they shouldn't like their new toy because you don't ... well.. that's just a special kind of brain-dead.

 

Either way, so long haters. You won't be missed. At all.

 

Your post started out good then went down hill when you started insulting everyone that might have a problem with the game.

 

Im sorry if I am subbed to a game that I LIKE and it has issues you can bet I will come here and be vocal about what I dont like and why and what it could end up doing to the sub base. People are vocal not to just troll but because they like the game and want to see it get better.

 

And guess what you have to be vocal to initiate change. Why do you think people riot in RL... are they all mindless idiots as you say for fighting for their rights and speaking up to force change?

 

Same concept.

 

Take a whiff of you own bs you spewed at the end of your post because you are that type of person.

[Barracudastr]

TERA hasn't announced a beta in North America yet.

 

Tera announced its releasing this spring. Beta time is moot and is considered mainly a preview and minor bug fixs at this point.

 

From their sites FAQ:

 

When will TERA launch in North America?

 

TERA will launch in North America in Spring 2012.

 

Please research before you reply.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Barracudastr

[Serafinity]

I think a lot of people are missing the point. The 'whingers' and crybabies are not here to whine and complain about the game and extoll the virtues of other games. They (well, most of them at least) are here because they have a vested interest in seeing this game reach its full potential, but are having issues enjoying it because of several glaring problems.

 

I have to give the OP some credit for managing to stay calm and collected despite the rampant flaming against him, or anyone else sharing his opinion. He's just trying to stir discussion about the state of the game and make a point to the devs that these issues will translate to a reduction in the bottom line and tarnish the EA/BW reputation if not addressed quickly.

 

I wanted to enjoy this game, badly. I really did. But as an experienced gamer, I expected more from such an established developer who had loads of resources and time to work on it.

 

I enjoy the storyline immensely. It's about the only thing keeping me coming back. I often find myself grinning in devilish delight during my sith inquisitor's dialogue cutscenes. Btw, I think the accent for the female avatar is fantastic - it verily drips with scorn and malice.

 

However, the combat responsiveness is in fact a game breaker for me. Yes, it's playable, but it makes combat frustrating and ultimately un-enjoyable.

 

Whoever said the PvP in this game is fantastic is...wow. I can't even begin to comprehend that assertion. Because of the unreliability and unresponsiveness of combat, it's only enjoyable to a very limited extent. Any concept of skill, reaction time, combat awareness, etc., is essentially negated because well, those things, which make pvp fun and challenging, don't amount to much when your commands are delayed past the point of having the intended effect, or don't even fire.

 

End game content will be fixed. The AH will be fixed. But those things are minor. Basic combat mechanics is a far more inherent problem, and while I am no comp sci major, I imagine it is much harder to fix.

 

I'll stick by it for now, because, as I assume many others who are griping do too, I really want this game to succeed and do well.

[jarjarloves]

The bigger the rise the harder the fall.

 

you've said that many times before however you couldn't be more wrong.

 

 

If TOR cost a couple hundred million to make and sold only 100k units or less then it is a MUCH bigger failure then if it sold 2 million copies

 

 

You fail hard at trolling

[djsmileey]

This is slightly off-topic but:

 

From what I read on the forums, most players talking about unsubscribing have gone through the MMO circuit for years now and are so used to the little quality-of-life things in games like WoW that the negatives of SWTOR are always glaring in their faces. Then there are others who I think are just entirely burnt-out on MMOs but don't even realize it yet; they'll go back to their standby game of choice because it's what they've been a part of for years, and they'll have trouble moving on completely. Then there are the guys who already have multiple toons at 50 because they're so used to the MMO grind; they blow through leveling content and are upset at the lack of end-game, which is all they really care about at this point in games like WoW.

 

I took a break from MMOs for the past year or so in anticipation of this game and I enjoy it much more as a result. A lot of these content and bug issues stand out to me as well and Bioware has acknowledged working on quite a few that I care about. Unsubs have lost patience with this sort of thing and, because of the huge budget and amount of time spent on developing the game, expect something much more than what they're getting out of the gate.

 

I don't mind supporting an evolving product that I am enjoying as long as I know many of my concerns are being addressed and that Bioware is updating content regularly. The end-game content is coming, bugs are being addressed, and little quality-of-life things like added guild features and mounts are going to be implemented. It would take a large period of content stagnation for me to unsubscribe. This game could drop to 500k players and it wouldn't affect me in any major way.

 

But I am not a hardcore player and I can see where some of you are left wanting.

 

+1 Great read.

[YEBAKILER]

I agree with the OP on many counts.

 

I will never really understand rabid fanboism which emerges with even the slightest criticism of this game. No one is saying the game is doomed.

 

But this game is simply not the material to topple World of Warcraft. As it has been said a thousand times before, the only thing that will finish off WoW will be Blizzard.

 

When WoW emerged, the MMO market was definitely not saturated. Most people began playing a proper MMO with WoW. The rest were drawn from the (now archaic) MMO games of then, like Ultima Online (which was long over even before WoW began, to be honest.)

 

Therefore, it is only normal that WoW grew from an initial playerbase of 1 million to 10 million. However, the market is now saturated. The only additional subscriptions it could get is by expansion into new regions, such as Oceania or Asia, or through the addition of Spanish language support, which, I think, would be horribly expensive for a voice-acted MMO.

 

There was an argument which said that this game will also attract Star Wars fans who are not MMORPGers. This is both true and false. While it will attract such a crowd, I highly doubt that a significant portion of this crowd will have the system requirements to run this demanding game (compared to WoW, which a seven year old laptop can still run.)

 

Again, no one is saying that this game will be an epic fail. It's just that it will stop growing sometime very soon - meaning that even though there WILL be people who will subscribe, they will be less in number than people who unsubscribe. (EDIT) and while a number around one million can keep the game afloat, I highly doubt that the developers and the players will approach it with the same enthusiasm they displayed on release.

Edited January 17, 2012 by YEBAKILER

[CupOHemlock]

Let's check in six months. It is a little soon to wonder this.

[jarjarloves]

I agree with the OP on many counts.

 

I will never really understand rabid fanboism which emerges with even the slightest criticism of this game. No one is saying the game is doomed.

 

But this game is simply not the material to topple World of Warcraft. As it has been said a thousand times before, the only thing that will finish off WoW will be Blizzard.

 

When WoW emerged, the MMO market was definitely not saturated. Most people began playing a proper MMO with WoW. The rest were drawn from the (now archaic) MMO games of then, like Ultima Online (which was long over even before WoW began, to be honest.)

 

Therefore, it is only normal that WoW grew from an initial playerbase of 1 million to 10 million. However, the market is now saturated. The only additional subscriptions it could get is by expansion into new regions, such as Oceania or Asia, or through the addition of Spanish language support, which, I think, would be horribly expensive for a voice-acted MMO.

 

There was an argument which said that this game will also attract Star Wars fans who are not MMORPGers. This is both true and false. While it will attract such a crowd, I highly doubt that a significant portion of this crowd will have the system requirements to run this demanding game (compared to WoW, which a seven year old laptop can still run.)

 

Again, no one is saying that this game will be an epic fail. It's just that it will stop growing sometime very soon - meaning that even though there WILL be people who will subscribe, they will be less in number than people who unsubscribe.

 

ummm what????

 

Tons of posts are calling this game epic fail and that is doomed f2p in 2 months and so on.

 

The fanboys as you put it ARE NOT saying this will topple WoW and I dont' think they want it to either.

[djsmileey]

Let's check in six months. It is a little soon to wonder this.

 

But how will I know what game I like if the public doesn't tell me right now?!?!?!

[DevonDs]

We were having a discussion about the MMO genre in another thread, but it got deleted for other reasons. I think it's an interesting one to have, so maybe those folks want to rejoin it here.

 

I was saying that I didn't think there were many gamers out there left for TOR to snag, and I thought the game's subs would decline from here on out. Someone remarked that WoW grew over many years, and I made the point that the market was just different then - younger and less saturated.

 

Basically, most people who would be inclined to pick up and play TOR have already done so. Sure there are new/young gamers out there who could be drawn in, but the majority of people who would likely play a game like (Bioware fans, MMO fans, Star Wars fans, general gamers) have either heard about the game, had a friend play, seen a video on youtube, etc., and they've made their choice to play or not to play. Considering how long it's been hyped up, I just don't see many "undecideds" still out there.

 

I think that the game will lose 200-400k subs this month, which would still put them at

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

healthy 1.5+ million. But I definitely believe this game is done growing.

 

The story focus of this game and it's accessibility to non hardcore elite or sandbox gamers will attract a lot of non mmo folks. The hardcore and sandboxes may avoid it, but the shift in priorities of this game beyond sandbox or hardcore really opens up new markets that haven't enjoyed the addon and macro infused hardcore raiding of wow or the sandbox community of Eve.

[Trolltar]

SWTOR probably will lose players once people have to start renewing subscriptions. But that doesn't have to mean the end for the game. How many of you quit WOW a couple times and came back to it? I know I quit it twice. If Bioware can continue to maintain the game, release new content, and keep current players excited there's no reason to believe that new players won't become interested and that old players won't return to the game.

 

There's one thing to consider that I don't know if anyone has mentioned yet. SWTOR launched when most college kids were either in finals or already headed home. College is starting to go back into session now. Which means one college kid that likes the game can show his/her (who are we kidding, its his) friends and lead to a new player base.

 

But let's face it. A lot of the people that are writing SWTOR's obituary now have been writing it for months, if not years. So far there is no evidence that the game is doomed. Making a successful MMO is challenging so those of us that are fans of SWTOR shouldn't just assume it will be around forever, but so far things aren't looking too bad.

[YEBAKILER]

ummm what????

 

Tons of posts are calling this game epic fail and that is doomed f2p in 2 months and so on.

 

The fanboys as you put it ARE NOT saying this will topple WoW and I dont' think they want it to either.

 

I think what I wrote was clear, but for clarification:

 

Yes, tons of posts are calling this game is an epic fail and is doomed to go f2p. However, tons of posts also contain valid, solid and objective criticisms of the game. I wrote to mean that BOTH of these are instantly repelled by fanboi posts like "the game is fine **** lol" while the game can very substantially benefit from the latter.

 

i.e. the OP makes a valid argument as to why he thinks the game is a mediocre success, explains his rationale behind why its success is "mediocre", and makes an observation over subscription ratios should the game continue as it is.

 

when you read through all the pages, however, you will notice that most of the criticisms against his arguments are not rebuttals, but "everything is fine leave bioware alone" posts

[YEBAKILER]

The story focus of this game and it's accessibility to non hardcore elite or sandbox gamers will attract a lot of non mmo folks. The hardcore and sandboxes may avoid it, but the shift in priorities of this game beyond sandbox or hardcore really opens up new markets that haven't enjoyed the addon and macro infused hardcore raiding of wow or the sandbox community of Eve.

 

Devon, do you think that those non mmo folks have the rig to enjoy this game properly? To see what I mean, check the "Horrid FPS" thread, the "Error Code 7" thread and pretty much anything beginning with "Overheating."

 

The minimum system requirements listed for this game do not accurately reflect the system you have to use in order to enjoy the game in its fullness (by fullness, I at least mean a sensible FPS rate.) The game currently has rampant FPS issues even on high spec computers. This alone would act as a disincentive to buy the game - i.e. if I see my friend playing TOR on a top-notch computer and see him stutter around in a small warzone with 5 fps, I would probably avoid buying the game for some time.

[Aaluria]

If you read these forums you see the same names or alt names posting the doom and gloom about how this MMO will die because it doesn't have xyz or zyx or that it will fail after the first month. They are not here to play the game, they don't care about the game. All they care about is the attention they get from starting these threads.

 

They try to make you believe they are some sort of MMO expert and can tell this game is dieing. Everytime I see one of these threads I laugh and say to myself what a fool. There are roughly 2 million copies of this game in circulation even if 500k left the game would still be a success by MMO standards. No one believes these threads when we read them and personally I wish the mods would come down hard on these types of threads because they are not constructive.

 

They never suggest they just state a opinion as if it were a undeniable fact. Raving ranting and lookin like a fool with their pants on the ground

[DarkoDon]

You would like growth, and I think it will, but what you really want is consistency. Every MMO has people quit everyday but new subs and resubs take the place of those who quit. Look at WOW, people have been quitting that game for years but new or old blood comes in to take their place. I also do not agree that anyone who had any interest would have already bought the game, those that had extreme interest have already bought the game and that is it.

 

^this exactly, i have a few friends that aren't gonna join till more reviews are out and the major bugs have been worked out. Same goes for the people who won't resub after 20th, there are some that will never come back and some that will. Eitherway, once this game gets half a year under its belt, new content, bug fixes, added features meant to be in but weren't due to rushed development, you'll see the numbers grow again.

 

Honestly, once they do fix the issues and add the features they intend to have, the game will be totaly different than the one we are playing now, and will appeal to even more players. It will get it's second chance and please quote me on that. It's a promise.

[SnoggyMack]

But how will I know what game I like if the public doesn't tell me right now?!?!?!

 

2 million people like it right now.

 

In 6 months, 5 million people are gonna like it.

 

And the few sour grapes folks who claim they've quit and this game is buried on the 20th, have already been replaced, won't be missed, and will be back by March.

 

[jarjarloves]

I think what I wrote was clear, but for clarification:

 

Yes, tons of posts are calling this game is an epic fail and is doomed to go f2p. However, tons of posts also contain valid, solid and objective criticisms of the game. I wrote to mean that BOTH of these are instantly repelled by fanboi posts like "the game is fine **** lol" while the game can very substantially benefit from the latter.

 

i.e. the OP makes a valid argument as to why he thinks the game is a mediocre success, explains his rationale behind why its success is "mediocre", and makes an observation over subscription ratios should the game continue as it is.

 

when you read through all the pages, however, you will notice that most of the criticisms against his arguments are not rebuttals, but "everything is fine leave bioware alone" posts

 

you just changed your statement. Before you said NO ONE is calling this game an epic fail or doom and gloom.

 

There are some posts with valid concerns and posted approptiely and those threads are appreicated however they are the minorty.

[Trolltar]

I think what I wrote was clear, but for clarification:

 

I agree, what you said was perfectly clear, you said:

 

 

I will never really understand rabid fanboism which emerges with even the slightest criticism of this game. No one is saying the game is doomed.

 

That is clearly false, which you acknowledge here:

 

Yes, tons of posts are calling this game is an epic fail and is doomed to go f2p.

 

Confused much?