Baaddare Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 We won with a sage after our Smuggler left ya sage is much better for that fight just for the extra utilities they can bring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 ya but he will still bounce you can never really stop him from doing it. Also since you were running with guildies do you know if they were focus firing. One thing i have noticed in this game is alot of dps will just be randomly picking off a mob to shoot at and not be focusing in on one target. Especially if that target is one like this one. They will tend to go off on one they think they can down quickly was that supposed to say were not running with guildies (just making sure casue I never said I was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 ya sage is much better for that fight just for the extra utilities they can bring The extra shield buffs helped a lot and it seemed like the sage had better heals in general, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loxone Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I didn't read all the pages but it sounds like a bit a of a tactical failure in planning. I think all of the classes other than JK/SW have a CC by the time you are doing Mandalorian Raiders. You should be able to CC at least 2 of the targets (I recommend BH and SI). The Marauder is not CCable so don't waste a CC cast on him (Been there before). When our group did this fight won when we CCed the BH and SI then buned down the IA because easy to kill and then we re-CCed the BH and SI then burned down the marauder. Took a little break while both targets were CCed then killed the SI then the BH last. So at the end of the day you were doing your job as best you could (really hard to have aggro on all 4 if no CC is used) and your healer was probably doing a good job as well but simply cannot heal enough to counteract all 4 at the same time. That's why I say the issue was in the strategy, not any individual player. Our group wiped several times on this fight before we figured out what had to be done (and that the Marauder cannot be CCed) so don't feel bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 And just in case anyones wondering how much better we did with the sage (we only dropped 1 with the smuggler, with the sage we got all four right off the bat) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 read the whole thread I only posted conversation starter information in the OP this is a 7 page thread read the whole thing I actually did read the whole thing. Here's what you don't know: How much damage you were taking. How much healing the first healer was doing. How much healing the second healer was doing. If mobs abilities were being interrupted / how often. How much damage the dps were doing. How much damage the dps were taking. How long the fight took. How much cc, if any, was happening. You go back on forth on this one. So basically you have no idea what was happening, other than you (the tank) were dying. The replacement healer came in and you won. But you don't know what changed. I'm not blaming you for not knowing all these things. But the premise of "was it me or the healer" is a bit amusing given the information gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 was that supposed to say were not running with guildies (just making sure casue I never said I was sorry thought you said you were with guildies and 1 pug ( the healer) my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordelia Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 To be fair, if your healer is complaining that he has mobs on him, then you're not doing your job 100%, are you? As a healer I agree and disagree. Yes, the tank should be holding aggro, but if you get a healer who just constantly is spamming heals then of course they are going to get huge aggro. Healing isn't just about pressing heals as much as you can ,it's about managing your aggro, using heals most effectively. If someone is spamming Deliverance then they are not a healer. However, i have seen it seems very easy to get aggro in this game as a healer also. Basically, dont't always blame the tank . DPS should also be using CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I didn't read all the pages but it sounds like a bit a of a tactical failure in planning. I think all of the classes other than JK/SW have a CC by the time you are doing Mandalorian Raiders. You should be able to CC at least 2 of the targets (I recommend BH and SI). The Marauder is not CCable so don't waste a CC cast on him (Been there before). When our group did this fight won when we CCed the BH and SI then buned down the IA because easy to kill and then we re-CCed the BH and SI then burned down the marauder. Took a little break while both targets were CCed then killed the SI then the BH last. So at the end of the day you were doing your job as best you could (really hard to have aggro on all 4 if no CC is used) and your healer was probably doing a good job as well but simply cannot heal enough to counteract all 4 at the same time. That's why I say the issue was in the strategy, not any individual player. Our group wiped several times on this fight before we figured out what had to be done (and that the Marauder cannot be CCed) so don't feel bad. I guess I should point this out, but we only were able to wipe once before the healer left, and we didn't need any other tactics once we got the sage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I actually did read the whole thing. Here's what you don't know: How much damage you were taking. How much healing the first healer was doing. How much healing the second healer was doing. If mobs abilities were being interrupted / how often. How much damage the dps were doing. How much damage the dps were taking. How long the fight took. How much cc, if any, was happening. You go back on forth on this one. So basically you have no idea what was happening, other than you (the tank) were dying. The replacement healer came in and you won. But you don't know what changed. I'm not blaming you for not knowing all these things. But the premise of "was it me or the healer" is a bit amusing given the information gaps. I never said I knew all those things and my question wasn't all that, it was simply whether or not (WITH THE IMFORMATION I WAS ABLE TO PROVIDE) I was tanking properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baracca Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 most people learn to play from 1 to whatever by running up to a GROUP of mobs and whack away. this needs to change for flashpoints. you need to CC and pick off the mobs 1 or 2 at a time if possible. Tell group members to avoid area type attacks as this will break CC. Also, try to CC and use line of sight and pull the remaining around corners etc... to avoid extra pulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 As a healer I agree and disagree. Yes, the tank should be holding aggro, but if you get a healer who just constantly is spamming heals then of course they are going to get huge aggro. Healing isn't just about pressing heals as much as you can ,it's about managing your aggro, using heals most effectively. If someone is spamming Deliverance then they are not a healer. However, i have seen it seems very easy to get aggro in this game as a healer also. Basically, dont't always blame the tank . DPS should also be using CC. yeah the healer only ever got the bouncy little marauder on him for like 2 secs every once and a while not any big aggro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baaddare Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 As a healer I agree and disagree. Yes, the tank should be holding aggro, but if you get a healer who just constantly is spamming heals then of course they are going to get huge aggro. Healing isn't just about pressing heals as much as you can ,it's about managing your aggro, using heals most effectively. If someone is spamming Deliverance then they are not a healer. However, i have seen it seems very easy to get aggro in this game as a healer also. Basically, dont't always blame the tank . DPS should also be using CC. yup learned the hard way if i though up a shield before the fight i am already generating agro before the tank has even gone in. Let alone if i shield everyone. I have found if it is one target i can pre shield if it is a group i need to let the tank leap in and then shield him then the rest of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catch_TwentyTwo Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I know that their aren't very many tanks in this game. I've met a few others but there about as rare as healers. Now I'm a tank (and one of the already few that tank specs) and it jerks my chain when I'm tanking a run on Mandalorian Raiders. I tank all the way to the 4 man boarding party. I die while tanking 3 to all 4 of them through the whole fight, while being healed, and we wipe. This of course makes the healer mad and he gets mad at me for not keeping them off him. So he up and leaves. (we got another one and completed the flashpoint but that's not the story here.) Now I know from past MMO experience, that if the Tank dies and you wipe, usually it means that the Tank was holding enough damage to drop him quickly (me in this case) and the healer did not heal enough. So my question is. Should I try and Tank less of a fight in order to make it easier on the healer, or should I just start looking for better healers. I need some tips here, If it's me I need to know, but if it's not me please help. EDIT (forgot to ask if it could just be the game) Sounds to me like the healer either didn't or couldn't keep you healed. You're the tank, you draw the agro. If the healer was in trouble then they should have said; this is why Voice is a godsend in these situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 most people learn to play from 1 to whatever by running up to a GROUP of mobs and whack away. this needs to change for flashpoints. you need to CC and pick off the mobs 1 or 2 at a time if possible. Tell group members to avoid area type attacks as this will break CC. Also, try to CC and use line of sight and pull the remaining around corners etc... to avoid extra pulls. Lots of people have been suggesting more CC tactics and I'll look in to that, but a lot of people seem to be missing the point of this post which is whether or not I as a Tanking was tanking the way I should have been in that situation in terms of healing ability from my healer. But thanks to helpful little beavers like you, i now know how to not get into that situation in the first place. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biowraith Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Personally I found that all four did less damage combined than when they started to fall and the survivors got buffed. I duo'd it with a friend using two healing companions (we were level 28 - me a powertech tank, him a marauder), and against all four we could go on pretty much indefinitely, but when it was down to just one he burned through my hp quite quickly. We actually wiped on the last guy. We were going to switch tactics and bring them all down to 10-15% before killing each one, to minimise their damage buff up-time, but the reset bugged and we only had to face that last guy (which hurt, but we got him down). But yeah, teammates will get some aggro from the melee guy no matter what you do, but there's no immediate threat (tank can get him back easy enough) and enough time for the victim to be topped up before the next aggro switch. Edited January 17, 2012 by Biowraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qoojo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 And just in case anyones wondering how much better we did with the sage (we only dropped 1 with the smuggler, with the sage we got all four right off the bat) Smuggler can be a bit of a pain if you are taking heavy damage due to going out of energy quick. The smuggler has two energy regens to help matters, and after that it's the free diagnostic scan to get heal and get energy back on the crits from it. Sage also gets a shield to help with some of the incoming damage. It's also quite possible that the smuggler had to heal himself more because of heal aggro. Perhaps the attempt with the Sage went better because you paid better attention. I can't really say. All I know is as a smuggler healer, most of the tanks I have grouped with didn't bother gathering up all aggro. Most focus on one, I heal and get aggro from the trash. That's been my experience in SWTOR. My companion wookie actually does a better job than the tanks I have grouped with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sounds to me like the healer either didn't or couldn't keep you healed. You're the tank, you draw the agro. If the healer was in trouble then they should have said; this is why Voice is a godsend in these situations. I personally would love a voice system in this game. I had while tanking in LOTRO and man did it make things a hell of a lot easier than watching that little text box and looking for the even smaller name next to it. (not to mention that this game has a lot of chat latency issues for me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Problem would be solved with combat logs/meters. Just sayin Actually, it wouldn't. There's nothing a meter would have done here to help. The issue is lack of CC. One member has to keep at least one of the boarding party CC'd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Smuggler can be a bit of a pain if you are taking heavy damage due to going out of energy quick. The smuggler has two energy regens to help matters, and after that it's the free diagnostic scan to get heal and get energy back on the crits from it. Sage also gets a shield to help with some of the incoming damage. It's also quite possible that the smuggler had to heal himself more because of heal aggro. Perhaps the attempt with the Sage went better because you paid better attention. I can't really say. All I know is as a smuggler healer, most of the tanks I have grouped with didn't bother gathering up all aggro. Most focus on one, I heal and get aggro from the trash. That's been my experience in SWTOR. My companion wookie actually does a better job than the tanks I have grouped with. We actually got more aggro when we did our sage cause he seemed to attract the 2 ranged guys a lot more. But the smuggler had no-one on him for more than like 2 secs every once and a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Personally I found that all four did less damage combined than when they started to fall and the survivors got buffed. I duo'd it with a friend using two healing companions (we were level 28 - me a powertech tank, him a marauder), and against all four we could go on pretty much indefinitely, but when it was down to just one he burned through my hp quite quickly. We actually wiped on the last guy. We were going to switch tactics and bring them all down to 10-15% before killing each one, to minimise their damage buff up-time, but the reset bugged and we only had to face that last guy (which hurt, but we got him down). But yeah, teammates will get some aggro from the melee guy no matter what you do, but there's no immediate threat (tank can get him back easy enough) and enough time for the victim to be topped up before the next aggro switch. This is true, I actually found this fight much more difficult than the final boss encounter, especially when your fighting the last one, he does more damage than the final guy and both his little turrets combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocNessMonster Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) my question is, why are you tanking 4 guys? is no one CCing any of them? I know at least troopers/BH and Sage/Sorc have a long term CC ability. Why are you not using that? I haven't run through mando raiders so I don't know this fight you are referring to, but it seems like there is a lack of CC going on here. You don't need CC, theres no reason why he cant tank all 3 ranged npcs. The marauder force leaps to random targets, you shouldn't even bother trying to tank him. If whomever has guard on them cant handle the marauder, you have a dps problem. Kill order should be Marauder > Sorc > the BH and IA should go down around the same time. Edited January 17, 2012 by RocNessMonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Actually, it wouldn't. There's nothing a meter would have done here to help. The issue is lack of CC. One member has to keep at least one of the boarding party CC'd. The issue was resolved without cc. Perhaps the issue could have been solved with cc. Or maybe the original healer just wasn't healing effectively. Or maybe the tank took a couple big shots to the face in their one attempt with the first healer, and simply didn't take the same damage the next attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrimonus Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Personally I found that all four did less damage combined than when they started to fall and the survivors got buffed. I duo'd it with a friend using two healing companions (we were level 28 - me a powertech tank, him a marauder), and against all four we could go on pretty much indefinitely, but when it was down to just one he burned through my hp quite quickly. We actually wiped on the last guy. We were going to switch tactics and bring them all down to 10-15% before killing each one, to minimise their damage buff up-time, but the reset bugged and we only had to face that last guy (which hurt, but we got him down). But yeah, teammates will get some aggro from the melee guy no matter what you do, but there's no immediate threat (tank can get him back easy enough) and enough time for the victim to be topped up before the next aggro switch. This. This is a simple council fight, you burn them all down to about 10% then aoe them all down. You can also kill the marauder first if his annoying threat drop and force leap is too much for you to control. No CC necessary at all. Also to the people saying L2tank, especially in AOE situations the tanks in SWTOR just don't seem to have the tools necessary to put out enough AOE threat to hold mobs. Some worse than others. Dps coordination is important, single target and burning down mob by mob on the majority of pulls is best. If you want to aoe, prepare to tank as tanks just aren't equipped for it right now. It's something that needs to be looked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 You don't need CC, theres no reason why he cant tank all 3 ranged npcs. The marauder force leaps to random targets, you shouldn't even bother trying to tank him. If whomever has guard on them cant handle the marauder, you have a dps problem. I actually aggroed the marauder quite easily because I could focus my taunt and other attacks on him once I had thje other 3 on me ( and he goes down pretty quick when the dps focuses him down first) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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