archontrieste Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) true, we do only have one that isn't on CD. But we have so many of them on CD, and you can spec so when you get hit you gain rage, and every other way, that the only time a person should be rage starved is if they're utterly terrible at the game. And I was referencing the rest of the thread b/c we discussed it the very next post down. So Rather than making a stupid /thread post, how bout you actually contribute to this thread, or just not troll the thread at all. /shrug Just a thought. I must be terrible then, because there are plenty of times I need to use Assault (or rather I simply have no alternative). Pretty sure most people have it on their bars, despite it being absolutely pathetic. And I said /thread because, in my opinion, he brought up the only point that needs to be brought up. I wanted to express agreement, but I didn't think his point needed further elaboration. The only reason it would be a problem for Assault to be replaced by Sundering Assault is if rapid Sunder Armor stacks were OP. As we know, this is not the case. Other classes bypass armor much faster and by much more significant amounts, and there are also much faster ways for us to do it as well. Point being, why do we keep having to waste GCDs on an utterly pathetic damage ability as a DPS spec? We already lag behind in that department, especially in PvE. Cooldowns or not, we don't stay completely afloat without this horrible crutch. It's an ability we hate but can never be rid of. How many other classes have such a thing? Edited January 17, 2012 by archontrieste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazerius- Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I must be terrible then, because there are plenty of times I need to use Assault (or rather I simply have no alternative). Pretty sure most people have it on their bars, despite it being absolutely pathetic. And I said /thread because, in my opinion, he brought up the only point that needs to be brought up. I wanted to express agreement, but I didn't think his point needed further elaboration. The only reason it would be a problem for Assault to be replaced by Sundering Assault is if rapid Sunder Armor stacks were OP. As we know, this is not the case. Other classes bypass armor much faster and by much more significant amounts, and there are also much faster ways for us to do it as well. Point being, why do we keep having to waste GCDs on an utterly pathetic damage ability as a DPS spec? We already lag behind in that department, especially in PvE. Cooldowns or not, we don't stay completely afloat without this horrible crutch. If they change it like how OP said, here's what will happen: -Armor Break Debuff will drop off after ~5-8 seconds to keep the rotations proper. -Sundering Assault will only provide 1 Rage, maybe 2 with a 50%/100% 2 pt talent. -Armor Break will do the same damage as what Assault does now, maybe a midpoint between. When one thing changes, you have to look at the consequences of what else will be effected. A straight combination will never happen, as nice as it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archontrieste Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) When one thing changes, you have to look at the consequences of what else will be effected. A straight combination will never happen, as nice as it would be. Since you haven't guessed, I'm suggesting a buff, not a compromise. Our burst may be nice in PvP, but our actual DPS is quite lacking in both modes of gameplay. I think Sundering Assault could easily replace Assault without making us remotely overpowered - provided one thing, the talent for extra rage is removed. SA is still relatively low damage compared to our other abilities, and It would only be prioritized for rage building. Edited January 17, 2012 by archontrieste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazerius- Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Since you haven't guessed, I'm suggesting a buff, not a compromise. Our burst may be nice in PvP, but our actual DPS is quite lacking in both modes of gameplay. I think Sundering Assault could easily replace Assault without making us remotely overpowered - provided one thing, the talent for extra rage is removed. SA is still relatively low damage compared to our other abilities, and It would only be prioritized for rage building. I didn't have to guess. I've already said 4 times in this thread that it'll never happen. I wasn't "guessing." That's a guarantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archontrieste Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I didn't have to guess. I've already said 4 times in this thread that it'll never happen. I wasn't "guessing." That's a guarantee. I don't really care whether you think it will happen or not. We're discussing what we'd like to see happen, not the chances of it actually happening. It's called "throwing it out there". I don't claim to know what BioWare is thinking or which direction they will take the class. Edited January 17, 2012 by archontrieste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurja Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 it has cd because it does so huge damage. (well i laughed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerumble Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The problem with Sundering Assault not having a CD is that it would completely replace Assault unless it did less damage... AKA that's exactly what it should do. End of discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Itharius Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) It builds rage the same as Assault, so that is irrelevant. My argument is that it should replace Assault as our rage builder. You would never spam 5 in a row, that would be terrible damage/threat for 5 GCDs. You would still open with Sundering Assault then Crushing blow and get 5 stack straight away, so there is no buff when taking away the CD, the benefit is that you can remove Assault from your bar. It most certainly does not make it OP, the only change it would have to the way we play is it would free up a keybind because Assault can be taken off. Taking the cooldown off Sundering Assault would make Jugg too easy to play, and it would adversely affect the playstyle. Right now, Sundering Assault is used off cooldown as a gradual rage generation ability. If it were spammable, players would just spam Sundering Assault until they fill their rage bar, then blow all their rage abilities at once. Do you really want to turn your class into a glorified autoattacker just because you can't handle one extra ability? Edited January 17, 2012 by Lord_Itharius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renesis Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Taking the cooldown off Sundering Assault would make Jugg too easy to play, and it would adversely affect the playstyle. Right now, Sundering Assault is used off cooldown as a gradual rage generation ability. If it were spammable, players would just spam Sundering Assault until they fill their rage bar, then blow all their rage abilities at once. Do you really want to turn your class into a glorified autoattacker just because you can't handle one extra ability? Not sure if serious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craez Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The problem with Sundering Assault not having a CD is that it would completely replace Assault unless it did less damage... AKA that's exactly what it should do. End of discussion! Agreed it should replace assault. Or the CD lowered to 1.5 secs. One less button to push is not suddenly easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I like the current cooldown because weaving abilities between Sundering in rage-limited builds is more fun for me than using a simple priority system. For example, if Sundering has 1.5 seconds left on the cooldown and Ravage is my best DPS ability available, I might go with an instant ability instead, so I don't delay Sundering. Another example would be Force Choke, since delaying Sundering negates some of the rage Choke generates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steinsgate Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Agreed it should replace assault. Or the CD lowered to 1.5 secs. One less button to push is not suddenly easy mode. This is a concept people seem to be unable to grasp. There is a substantial difference between priorities being easier and less clunky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallti Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Taking the cooldown off Sundering Assault would make Jugg too easy to play, and it would adversely affect the playstyle. Right now, Sundering Assault is used off cooldown as a gradual rage generation ability. If it were spammable, players would just spam Sundering Assault until they fill their rage bar, then blow all their rage abilities at once. Do you really want to turn your class into a glorified autoattacker just because you can't handle one extra ability? They can do that with Assault now if they really want to do that, but it wouldn't be a good way to play. And it wouldn't turn it into a glorified auto-attacker, seriously, I don't know where to begin with that argument. Like I said in the post you quoted of mine, I honestly don't think it would affect playstyle much at all, other than removing Assault from our bar, which it sorta feels like that's the way it should be as a Immortal tank. @Lazerius- I was not putting words in your mouth, you said, and I quoted you saying "It would make it too easy to keep up" that implies that there is some difficulty keeping it up right now. I do not agree with that whatsoever because the CD is not even a variable in keeping the buff up at the moment, you have 10.5 seconds between it coming off CD and the buff expiring... that's enough time to not even consider it as a hindrance. Especially when I am merely suggesting increasing that 10.5 seconds to 15 seconds. In my book, that most certainly does not make it too easy to keep up because it is already too easy to keep up, as it should be. EDIT: I should also mention that end game progression Jugg Tanks are saying that threat is an issue at high gear levels. This would help with that. Edited January 17, 2012 by Kallti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lymain Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I find myself using Assault semi-regularly PvE when there is simply nothing else to do and getting more rage is always good. If Smash / Scream / Sundering Assault / Vicious Slash / Ravage etc are all on CD, what else are you going to do? I am talking in terms of Immortal spec, by the way. I would much prefer to be able to use Sundering Assault as a filler, rather than Sundering Assault and Assault when Sundering Assault is on CD. Two filler/rage building abilities just doesn't make sense. Vicious Slash doesn't have a cooldown. You should really never be using Assault with a full Immortal build if you have the rage skills in that tree and use Sundering every 4.5 seconds. I guess if you're not tanking you might have some problems? But really, just take Assault off your hotbar and your DPS should go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallti Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Vicious Slash doesn't have a cooldown. You should really never be using Assault with a full Immortal build if you have the rage skills in that tree and use Sundering every 4.5 seconds. I guess if you're not tanking you might have some problems? But really, just take Assault off your hotbar and your DPS should go up. My mistake with VS, sorry. If I take Assault off my bar then there will be times when I am literally not doing anything, that won't make my DPS go up. I have all the talents to allow more rage when being hit, but that doesn't change the fact that there are times when I literally have nothing else to hit and either don't want to waste my rage on VS (low rage) or don't have enough rage for VS. These times are part of any rage-based class design, they are when you are supposed to use your filler move. We have two though and my point is that is weird and a waste of space on our bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallti Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) I should also state that my opinion is that even if removing the CD on Sundering Assault buffs us slightly, that is good for Juggs. We could do with a threat/damage buff when compared to other classes, such as Powertechs. Edited January 18, 2012 by Kallti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodcharged Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 OP? So what does that make mercs? OP? I guess, that is if you are stupid enough to sit there and let them get off 3 Tracer Missiles in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youwillburn Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Because it was balanced for WoW. In WoW your white attacks were auto, which a 4 sec CD wasn't bad because you can mash on it and it'll just fire when it is ready. In SWTOR you have to manually use auto attack, which = juggling between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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