Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Skaara]

Shhhh. Let 'em rage. Who cares if they continue to miss the point? It's fun to read all these people foaming at the keyboard.

 

I know, right. It is actually quite entertaining to watch them bring out their prejudice just because you don't agree with them and have different solutions that will work unlike the current methods. I am actually now to the point if anyone even utters the phrase go back to wow it is an automatic put on ignore list. It is truly getting old.

 

/popcorn

Edited January 27, 2012 by Skaara

[subrosian]

We don't want easy content, I want easy teaming... stay on topic. You people are way off in god knows what tangent.

 

One necessitates the other.

 

Once you introduce a raid finder you kill on-server grouping. It's not "optional", no one can form a group because people aren't actively in trade chat looking for a group any more. Once that happens, every group is random.

 

Once you have random groups, the average skill level of the group is FAR lower because you have many players who are bad, many players who literally couldn't find the Flashpoints who are now doing them because they have a button on their screen that lets them queue. In addition, you have people who have the bare minimum of time investment into their toon entering those queues.

 

That makes it so groups consistently fail. When that happens, all of the "I only have 2 hours to play the game a week" people start whining, and all of the people who didn't want the damn raid finder in the first place are sitting there unable to get a group together outside of their guild, because no one is looking any more. Everyone gets screwed over.

 

So they nerf the content, which starts the ball rolling, and it ends with what we see with WoW: LFR easy-mode and plummeting subscriber numbers.

 

-

 

MMOs are built around carrots on sticks. The end-game shouldn't be focused on entirely dungeons / raids... but it also can't just hand casual players the carrots. When you shorten that carrot string, you create fundamental problems down the line.

 

-

 

So no, you're not just asking for "easy grouping", you're asking for a casual mode, push-button-receive-loot game. They are one and the same.

[AeonWeapon]

Your style of play is exactly the problem. You demand a dungeon finder because you "don't want to take the time to find a group". Next you're going to be on the forums complaining "the content is too hard, my groups keep failing, I only have 2 hours a night to play and these fail groups mean I log in and just wipe for 2 hours!"..

 

Bold extrapolation.

 

No, I won't be asking for easy, i don't want easy. I don't mind dying in the game, because I'm not some soccer-mom-raised participation-trophy-earning whiney kid who never learned to that you can have fun in a game whether you win or lose.

 

I just want to be able to play without wasting alot of time trying to get started playing. If I lose, I still had fun playing.

 

The problem with you people is you refuse to team with anyone who isn't already geared with the content drops and done that raid 1000 times already, so the rest of us who want to experience the content are left out. If it's not a guaranteed win, you don't want to play, then you cry and abuse less experienced players who are less experienced because you leave them out.

 

Personally, i would rather team with people who are at the normal stage of wanting to experience the content for the first few times, are equipped at the starting level of equipment for that instance, and are experiencing it with me, rather than you people who have done it 100 times already and think you're too good to help out they guy who's trying to get a start on that content.

 

I want this tool to circumvent the elitists claimed authority to decide who "deserves" to play that content. And that infuriates you because you lose your fascist control over whether or not others get to have fun.

Edited January 27, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[subrosian]

Exactly what I was thinking. NOT GOING TO ADDRESS THE TROLLS! Gotta keep telling myself that.

 

People who are pointing out how giving the players a "push button to receive loot" option destroys MMOs are not "trolls", they are people who want to keep the bads from tanking the game. I'm confident Bioware has someone on staff who is smart enough not to hand over the keys to the kingdom to the lowest common denominator.

 

If they do, unlike the bads, I don't find it particularly hard to level a toon in another game that respects the idea that skill should be innately tied to achievement. If you want to play a game where figuring out how to push "start" gets you an "Achievement Unlocked", WoW has actually gotten to that point... so hey, go back to playing it.

 

And say, why aren't you playing your WoW account anymore? Go on, reply and prove me right.

[MalignX]

One necessitates the other.

 

Once you introduce a raid finder you kill on-server grouping. It's not "optional", no one can form a group because people aren't actively in trade chat looking for a group any more. Once that happens, every group is random.

 

Once you have random groups, the average skill level of the group is FAR lower because you have many players who are bad, many players who literally couldn't find the Flashpoints who are now doing them because they have a button on their screen that lets them queue. In addition, you have people who have the bare minimum of time investment into their toon entering those queues.

 

That makes it so groups consistently fail. When that happens, all of the "I only have 2 hours to play the game a week" people start whining, and all of the people who didn't want the damn raid finder in the first place are sitting there unable to get a group together outside of their guild, because no one is looking any more. Everyone gets screwed over.

 

So they nerf the content, which starts the ball rolling, and it ends with what we see with WoW: LFR easy-mode and plummeting subscriber numbers.

 

-

 

MMOs are built around carrots on sticks. The end-game shouldn't be focused on entirely dungeons / raids... but it also can't just hand casual players the carrots. When you shorten that carrot string, you create fundamental problems down the line.

 

-

 

So no, you're not just asking for "easy grouping", you're asking for a casual mode, push-button-receive-loot game. They are one and the same.

 

Hooray for carrots! Wait.. did you have another point?

[AeonWeapon]

People who are pointing out how giving the players a "push button to receive loot" option

 

Not about the loot, want to play... Just want to play. I play for fun, not for loot.

 

Yes I want a push button, get team option. Yep.

[MalignX]

If they do, unlike the bads, I don't find it particularly hard to level a toon in another game that respects the idea that skill should be innately tied to achievement. If you want to play a game where figuring out how to push "start" gets you an "Achievement Unlocked", WoW has actually gotten to that point... so hey, go back to playing it.

 

.

 

Why don't you go play another game?

[Seuria]

No, you are building strawmen.

 

Feel free to link to your WoW character with a pre-nerf Ragnaros kill if you want to talk about the difficulty of content in WoW though, and its impact on the community.

Actually, the fact that I haven't killed Rags at all is precisely the point. Those of us who haven't (and that's 88% of the active lvl 85 population) are as much a part of the community -- and judging from your elitist requirements here -- understand and identify with it better than you.

 

What Blizzard has run into with the combination of the LFR and nerfs is a disaster. Having a dungeon finder and simultaneously introducing difficulty content killed the game, but it wasn't the difficulty that was the issue, it was the raid finder.

Except you have zero evidence of this. Just your claims. That's my point. Blizzard's direction and the completion rate of raids pretty much proves my point that you're in the extreme minority and catering to you is a disaster. Why would SWTOR cater to you at all and not those who actually pay the bills?

 

The wrath model doesn't work, if it did, subscriber numbers would be at a record high right now. It has NEVER BEEN EASIER TO DO DUNGEONS OR RAID IN WOW THAN IT IS NOW. The game is the easiest it has ever been, and subscriber numbers are the lowest they have been in a long time. If it weren't for the annual pass, the February 9th numbers would be significantly below 10 million... as is, they're going to gloss over numbers because they're not looking good outside of Asia.

Another leap. Where's the data to back up your claim that people are quitting because the game is so much easier? Where's the evidence to back up the claim that is it a direct result of LFD and LFR that Blizzard is bleeding subs?

 

Again, I posit that evidence suggests that their sudden shift in 4.2 is the result of metrics suggesting that a.) Blizzard realized that they couldn't keep up with the demands of hardcore raiders for content, and b.) that other players were unhappy with the move towards a more difficult gaming experience that offered no alternatives but the gear treadmill. The result? Released and planned alternatives to the treadmill and less investment in hardcore raiding.

 

Is it a sure thing that I'm right? No. But it's far more likely then what you're putting forth.

[AeonWeapon]

These last few pages have felt like ignoring the baby crying until he tires himself out and stops.

 

When it gets quiet I'll just check to make sure they're not sleeping on their stomachs.

Edited January 27, 2012 by AeonWeapon

[MalignX]

These last few pages have felt like ignoring the baby crying until he tires himself out and stops.

 

When it gets quiet I'll just check to make sure they're not sleeping on their stomachs.

 

Heh, so you shouldn't cattle-prod the crying baby?

Edited January 27, 2012 by MalignX

[subrosian]

I want this tool to circumvent the elitists claimed authority to decide who "deserves" to play that content. And that infuriates you because you lose your fascist control over whether or not others get to have fun.

 

No, it infuriates me because it starts a game on the path to self-destruction, which leaves those of use who are actually long-time MMO gamers without a high quality game to play. I help players learn to play all the time. Do you know how many Priests are on my friends list in Wow? Do you know how many of them were struggling in normal modes before I started mentoring them?

 

Now? Not a single one of them is doing normal mode content anymore. Not. One. Every perso I have mentored is running Heroic mode content, 90% of them in the same guilds.

 

-

 

The point isn't "control over who can do content", the point is that the content should have a barrier to entry. It's up to you whether you decide to cross that barrier by working at it, or whether it's "too much effort" and you quit. No one is stopping you from getting your friends together and forming a guild, forming your dungeon groups.

 

Go ahead, form a guild and shove it in my "elitist" face, form your own dungeon groups and "kick my butt". I want you to do that, it is in my best interest for you to be successful in forming a strong social group in the game I enjoy and being good at it. I gain *nothing* from you failing.

 

-

 

What I have a problem with is a tool that mandates nerfs to content. They go hand-in-hand, you will NEVER have an LFR / dungeon-finder tool that does not result in massive nerfs to the content it is "finding" for.

 

"But man, I don't mind hard"... everyone claims that. You might genuinely be the exception, and I'm not going to call you a liar, but the fact is there has never been a raid finder that did not lead to nerfs, with those nerfs progressively spreading to encompass all content in the game.

 

-

 

You may want easy grouping, but you can't have it, because for that easy grouping to actually be *functional*, the entire game has to be watered down for the worst player in the game. You may not be the worst player, you might be quite good, but the game will be watered down to the point that the worst player possible can complete the content as soon as a tool is introduced that allows them to access it at the push of a button.

[navarh]

I've played WoW, probably at a level beyond what 99.9% of posters here have played at (3-healing 25-man Heroic Ragnaros pre-nerf):

nope not so impressive, and 10ppl raid?

and then you talk about making game easy-mode?

your pre-catav raid achiv in year 2011… woot

Edited January 27, 2012 by navarh

[MalignX]

 

The point isn't "control over who can do content", the point is that the content should have a barrier to entry. It's up to you whether you decide to cross that barrier by working at it, or whether it's "too much effort" and you quit. No one is stopping you from getting your friends together and forming a guild, forming your dungeon groups.

 

 

You may want easy grouping, but you can't have it, because for that easy grouping to actually be *functional*, the entire game has to be watered down for the worst player in the game. You may not be the worst player, you might be quite good, but the game will be watered down to the point that the worst player possible can complete the content as soon as a tool is introduced that allows them to access it at the push of a button.

 

Content barrier - Purchase of game.

[Seuria]

Shhhhh.. I'm hoping for a death-at-the-computer-aneurysm on subrowhatevers side at this point.

You're right. I just wanted to understand. Instead I got into a debate with someone with an axe to grind because he / she is convinced that participating in instanced off, choreographed content gives them an edge up on determining what is best for community.

 

I'm done. Back on topic!

[DSPD]

I can tell you for a FACT the combination of difficult dungeons + LFG = disaster.

 

That entire post made me laugh but specifically this line. What dungeon/instance/flashpoint in this game was soooo difficult that it couldn't be summed up in one or two lines of text.

 

That being said, I think the majority of players (myself included) are casual players that don't want to have to logon and wait an hour to get a group. Especially if you have to sit there and spam LFG every two minutes. Maybe that's your thing but personally, I'd rather do other things with my time.

[AeonWeapon]

"Path of self destruction" hm?

 

I would say that path is to have the majority of players unable to access a large portion of the content, and quitting as a result.

 

Endgame content is meant to keep us interested in playing beyond max level, so we don't go "ok I beat the game" and leave. It is not meant to be accessible only to those who are in the top guilds and have time all day. It is meant to give us something to do at end game, and if the larger "casual" population with limited game time can't get into that content, then we have nothing to do at end game and the effect of keeping us interested at endgame is lost on us, then we get bored and quit. There goes the large profits from casual gamers that would go into rolling out more content for casual and hardcore alike.

 

You see, you do have a vested interest in keeping casuals happy too... because they will feed profits to the game you play and that will lead to more improvements for you too. You're being shortsighted.

[subrosian]

nope not so impressive, and 10ppl raid?

and then you talk about making game easy-mode?

your pre-catav raid achiv in year 2011… woot

 

Started my Priest in Cataclysm, poor argument is poor is poor. I had no interest in playing easy-mode Wrath of the Lich King and didn't. I played the game starting in Cataclysm based on the promise from Ghostcrawler that it was going to be a return to the golden age of difficult content, which it was and was fun for three months.

 

Then the nerfs started... eh whatever, I thought, I'll go 25-man (keep in mind 10-man was more difficulty in Heroic in T11 pre-nerf) and do Firelands, since they are pushing that as the "hard content" again. Oh, what happens? They put a 20% nerf on Firelands which makes farming it for months an absolute snooze fest.

 

So I join Blood Legion on the Dragonsoul PTR (yeah, the US #1 guild) and what... the game sucks, it's awful, **** what is this garbage? So I don't bother, I figure, I'll sit it out a tier, keep geared and see what happens in 4.4... oh wait, there is no 4.4? Mists of Panderia? Another Heroic mode nerf? WHAT?

 

-

 

Blizzard traded its soul to try and salvage declining subs. It didn't do this because "OMG THOSE ELITISTS", it did it because they didn't want to put the time into figuring out non-raid content for people to do, so they decided to try and make people do the same raids for longer by handing Heroic modes to bads.

 

Is it working? No, the game's subscribers continue to bleed and on February 9th they'll gloss over subscriber numbers, which will stop being announced soon as they're not going back up in Mists for NA and EU, the game is shifting to China and they're hoping to crank out the console Diablo 3 soon and stop giving a crap about the PC market.

 

-

 

/blizzard

 

-

 

SWTOR can go the same route if you guys want, go nuts, route another game, and game company, it won't affect the "elitists" you try and screw over so hard. We'll move on to another game, and you'll move on to another game, the only people who get truly screwed over in the end are Bioware.

 

-

 

But that's assuming they're dumb enough to allow the bads to dictate the game design. I know Bioware, they're not a dumb company, they won't give in to the bads, and you'll continue to whine on the forums, and we'll continue to be better at the game than you, and everything will be fine.

[AeonWeapon]

That being said, I think the majority of players (myself included) are casual players that don't want to have to logon and wait an hour to get a group. Especially if you have to sit there and spam LFG every two minutes. Maybe that's your thing but personally, I'd rather do other things with my time.

 

I prefer to use my time productively, when I feel it's being wasted, I do something else. If I'm not having fun with my game time, I log out.

 

For the last week I have refused to spend mroe than 15 minutes looking for a team, I log in, ask for 15 minutes for a team, and only one day did I get lucky and find one, for the other 8 of the last 9 days I didnt' find anything in 15 minutes, I logged out and did something else. I'm not playing TOR lately. And if they don't have an easy way for me to find a team after the 2 months I payed for already runs out, I won't be renewing.

[Neiloch]

The point isn't "control over who can do content", the point is that the content should have a barrier to entry. It's up to you whether you decide to cross that barrier by working at it, or whether it's "too much effort" and you quit. No one is stopping you from getting your friends together and forming a guild, forming your dungeon groups.

 

Go ahead, form a guild and shove it in my "elitist" face, form your own dungeon groups and "kick my butt". I want you to do that, it is in my best interest for you to be successful in forming a strong social group in the game I enjoy and being good at it. I gain *nothing* from you failing.

 

-

 

What I have a problem with is a tool that mandates nerfs to content. They go hand-in-hand, you will NEVER have an LFR / dungeon-finder tool that does not result in massive nerfs to the content it is "finding" for.

 

"But man, I don't mind hard"... everyone claims that. You might genuinely be the exception, and I'm not going to call you a liar, but the fact is there has never been a raid finder that did not lead to nerfs, with those nerfs progressively spreading to encompass all content in the game.

 

-

 

You may want easy grouping, but you can't have it, because for that easy grouping to actually be *functional*, the entire game has to be watered down for the worst player in the game. You may not be the worst player, you might be quite good, but the game will be watered down to the point that the worst player possible can complete the content as soon as a tool is introduced that allows them to access it at the push of a button.

 

You are confusing easily beating dungeons with easily getting groups. NO they are not forever tied to one another so just drop that right now.

 

Also as we have debunked MANY times, there are various legitimate reasons many players can't put together a vast social network for grouping, nor should they have to.

 

FYI no one here cares how accomplished you are on WoW. I would imagine most people on WoW don't care how accomplished you are on WoW. Nor does it make you any kinds of authority on community or content.

 

When I speak of a LFD tool I am usually speaking 'from' DCUO and Rift since I have played those much more than WoW. they are also QUITE successful there and no, they didn't not have to nerf content to make it usable.

 

Also I am still waiting for an answer to this:

How about this: If we can't spend several hours a day dedicated to setting up friends/guilds just so I can run group content, and you don't want a LFD system in place, what do you propose we do? I await your answer.

 

PS: if your answer is' this game isnt for you' or 'quit' take that over to BioWare and see how well that strategy goes over.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Neiloch

[MalignX]

Aneurysm! Aneurysm!

 

 

Seriously, I'd be interested in hearing what you think should be part of the LFG Tool, THAT IS COMING, but I couldn't care less why you hate it.

[BlueSkittles]

Bold extrapolation.

 

No, I won't be asking for easy, i don't want easy. I don't mind dying in the game, because I'm not some soccer-mom-raised participation-trophy-earning whiney kid who never learned to that you can have fun in a game whether you win or lose.

 

I just want to be able to play without wasting alot of time trying to get started playing. If I lose, I still had fun playing.

 

The problem with you people is you refuse to team with anyone who isn't already geared with the content drops and done that raid 1000 times already, so the rest of us who want to experience the content are left out. If it's not a guaranteed win, you don't want to play, then you cry and abuse less experienced players who are less experienced because you leave them out.

 

Personally, i would rather team with people who are at the normal stage of wanting to experience the content for the first few times, are equipped at the starting level of equipment for that instance, and are experiencing it with me, rather than you people who have done it 100 times already and think you're too good to help out they guy who's trying to get a start on that content.

 

I want this tool to circumvent the elitists claimed authority to decide who "deserves" to play that content. And that infuriates you because you lose your fascist control over whether or not others get to have fun.

 

I'll address you, Aeon, instead of others. I DO want easy mode for at least one version of Flashpoints. I'm not afraid to admit that I suck at most games. It takes me extra long to figure out my rotations. And from what I've seen in WoW, I'm not the only one. Doesn't mean I don't have the right by paying $15 a month to NOT experience Flashpoint content because I'm not hardcore. I want to get in there, play it with three other people and get the **** out. Rewards are great, but not the main or only reason I would play them. That is why I suggested easy mode LFD/LFR-like Flashpoint system. Oh yeah, and in case anyone doesn't think Bioware isn't thinking of casuals like me, Gabe Amantangelo already said they made the Normal Operation difficulty FOR casuals.

 

"Additionally, players will be able to enjoy operations as soon as they hit level 50. There will be varying difficulty modes, much like what is found in other BioWare games. The challenge, mechanics, and rewards will vary with the modes. So both the casual and hardcore player will be able to enjoy epic content alongside multiple groups of friends." http://www.darthhater.com/tag/gabe-amatangelo

 

Now if they had a WoW LFR system to get me into those "Casual" Operations, I would be a happy boy.

 

As for Cata Heroic dungeons. They weren't necessarily only "too hard", but having to use weird CC mechanics that were neither obvious nor easy to use (especially on my hunter) was bad. Plus, Blizzard should have known by then that no one in LFD was willing to "learn by wiping". I get hardcore people seem to love that, and is why they should have had only Normal mode level 85 dungeons and kept Heroic out of LFD.

[subrosian]

You see, you do have a vested interest in keeping casuals happy too... because they will feed profits to the game you play and that will lead to more improvements for you too. You're being shortsighted.

 

No, it doesn't.

 

Farmville doesn't have an incentive to become "more hardcore", it has every incentive to become "more casual". The path to casual is to cut the hardcore player out of the game. To believe otherwise is to suggest that a company would choose to make casuals it primary audience, and then magically spend income on content for an audience that it doesn't care about instead of on getting more of the audience it does care about.

 

SWTOR is a paid MMO, it will NEVER dominate the casual audience. It can't compete with F2P games, it can't compete with Farmville, it can't compete with games that literally cater to the lowest common denominator. It can compete with hardcore-focused MMOs, it can compete with games that are trying to cater to raiders or PVPers, it can compete with games that are going to charge the most amount of money, and provide the most content for, the end-game dedicated player.

 

Otherwise, why bother with Flashpoints and Operations at all? If you want to be Farmville, you go full Farmville, you don't take a game that won't play well on Grandma's laptop and put it out there.

[DSPD]

I prefer to use my time productively, when I feel it's being wasted, I do something else. If I'm not having fun with my game time, I log out.

 

For the last week I have refused to spend mroe than 15 minutes looking for a team, I log in, ask for 15 minutes for a team, and only one day did I get lucky and find one, for the other 8 of the last 9 days I didnt' find anything in 15 minutes, I logged out and did something else. I'm not playing TOR lately. And if they don't have an easy way for me to find a team after the 2 months I payed for already runs out, I won't be renewing.

 

^ Could not agree more. Exactly my point.

[Moricthian]

 

Otherwise, why bother with Flashpoints and Operations at all? If you want to be Farmville, you go full Farmville, you don't take a game that won't play well on Grandma's laptop and put it out there.

 

lol at LFG tool = Farmville. With comparisons like this, no wonder nobody here is taking your arguments seriously. Does the PvP que turn everyone into bads too?

[BlueSkittles]

People who are pointing out how giving the players a "push button to receive loot" option destroys MMOs are not "trolls", they are people who want to keep the bads from tanking the game. I'm confident Bioware has someone on staff who is smart enough not to hand over the keys to the kingdom to the lowest common denominator.

 

If they do, unlike the bads, I don't find it particularly hard to level a toon in another game that respects the idea that skill should be innately tied to achievement. If you want to play a game where figuring out how to push "start" gets you an "Achievement Unlocked", WoW has actually gotten to that point... so hey, go back to playing it.

 

And say, why aren't you playing your WoW account anymore? Go on, reply and prove me right.

 

I'm not playing WoW because they don't have the "fourth pillar of gaming". If they implemented the voice-overs and camera work and dialogue choice for their world questing, I would go back to WoW right now, because I am no longer having as much fun as I could be with SWTOR. Plus I got bored of the setting and wanted something Star Wars and futuristic.

 

And saying things like "push button to receive loot" and "keep the bads from tanking" is trolling. You are insulting a not insignificant player base. I'm here to represent them and call a troll a troll.

 

And sorry, what was I proving right again? That I suck at games. Man, you really got me where it hurts.