Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[raidyr]

It creates a "fast food" culture that is anathema to cooperative content. When Cata launched it had Heroic dungeons that required players to work together and use their class abilities. People complained that they had to run with their guilds to clear the dungeons, because when they used the dungeon finder, they were grouped with people who refused to communicate, did not know how to play their class and got mad when given advice on the fights.

People did those things before Cata and before the dungeon finder was implemented in 3.3. Causation does not equal correlation.

 

The decision was made to nerf the dungeons until they no longer required teamwork, and the latest dungeons literally do not require CC to complete. Because DPS is all that determines success or failure, people focus completely on meters, and as the content requires less teamwork, people are intolerant of new players.

Except for hotfixes, none of the heroic dungeons in Cataclysm were nerfed. There were boss fixes of course for bugged behavior that was not the developers intent, but those fixes would have been made regardless. And again you touch on a problem not indicitive of a post-LFG culture but a gaming culture as a whole. People were impatient with new players back when DnD hit the scene in the 1980s. What the hell does Dungeon Finder have to do with that?

The dungeon finder is the cornerstone of the problem. With no barrier to entry, players who are not ready get into the content with no one helping them learn it. With no time invested in forming the group, there is no barrier to exit encouraging groups to help new players.

There is a barrier to entry; a requirement of maximum level (for heroics) and certain gear levels (to make sure you have the mana/health necessary to last during fights).

 

Those barriers might seem "optional" to you, but to a game theorist like me (a field of math and economics dealing with the math of choice) it is actually mandatory to have these barriers to encourage cooperative behavior. Make the dungeons too easy or too acceesible, and you are guaranteed to see the massive loss of subscribers you see in wow, as half the players are bored by easy mode content, and the other half are frustrated because no one will take the time to help them get better at ghe game.

For someone who likes to stroke his logic, you once again misplace causation with correlation. WoW subscriber's loss has nothing to do with the LFG tool. They gained subscribers for months after it's inception, and started losing them for a multitude of reasons, not one of which is linked to people being able to form safer, more secure groups with ease.

[Umbral]

Please DO NOT PUT A DUNGEON FINDER IN THE GAME.

 

Dungeon and raid finder is what ruined WoW. It destroys community, it eliminates the option to form groups any other way (because no one else is in chat looking for a group), and by making end game content too convenient it leads to the expectation that the content is dumbed down enough for the below average player to complete it.

Except it actually improved WoW for most players by finally allowing the majority, the gamers that have jobs, school, families, you know, lives) to access the group content more easily. It also saved entire communities by saving entire servers that were on the brink of oblivion due to people transferring to high pop servers just to be able to find groups.

 

Dungeon finder is the path to a game where nothing in the game takes skill or time... and therefore nothing in the game provides a satisfying reward.

Just what about spamming the same LFG message over and over takes skill? Furthermore, if "time" is a requirement for feeling a sense of " satisfying reward", then all dungeon runs should just be excruciatingly long.....right? That is what you're saying isn't it? That standing in one area. not playing the game, and spamming the same LFG message for inordinate amounts of time, should give players a sense of "satisfying reward"?

 

PLEASE IGNORE ANYONE WHO SAYS SUCH A FEATURE WOULD BE OPTIONAL, It isn't... the noment its implemented the forum QQ of "random groups can't do the too hard dungeons" starts and the game is permanently ruined.

Funny that Blizz devs have repeatedly stated that they have continually made their dungeons harder (I know this to be true personally since I've seen the game at it's beginning and with it's recent Cataclysm expansion). The reason some think that they're easier is because the cross-server LFG tool has allowed for many many more people to create alts, and you're more likely to run a dungeon with someone that's seen it before on another character and can act as a guide. Most feel that this is to the game's benefit because it's caused a lot less frustration caused by simply being unaware of upcoming encounter mechanics.

 

Are you now going to state that people remaining subscribed to the game because they now want to create an alt since it isn't such a pain to find groups anymore is a bad thing?

[raidyr]

So if you have time and a big guild nice but if you dont have should you be forced join one ?

 

Nice Community idea

 

Dungeon Finder Now

Welcome to the anti-LFG crowd. Selfish, hyperbole-fueled drama actors who want to make sure their way of playing the game is the only way, and thereby robbing Bioware of subscribers.

 

Thank you. We need more people voicing their opinions like this. LFG is a path to the dark side. Copy one thing and suddenly you may as well copy everything.

Wow, congratulations. You win the 2012 Slippery Slope Award. And so early!

I love how all the pro-LFG fools think that casually disregarding these points without event thinking about them is the way to go. Think about it and its easy to see by example how a tool that eliminates social interaction can start the path to a game where nobody talks to each other and guilds are useless.

First off, fools? Rude

 

Secondly, what crappy guilds are going to be rendered useless by the dungeon finder? I was in a raiding guild in WoW up until early last year and as far as I'm aware they weren't at all effected by a tool that allowed people to more easily access casual 5 man content.

You pro-LFG peeps are whats gonna kill this game. Stop shouting and start thinking about what actually happens when you no longer have to say a word to another person.

I have done every Flashpoint up to Red Reaper. Do you know how many of those Flashpoints had conversation? Two. And both were about boss strategies, with complete silence in between. Every other one, no words were said except customary "Thanks for group" at the end. I'm already not saying a word to people.

Edited January 27, 2012 by raidyr

[Vlacke]

nice try

and any proof that "rLFG" cause this?

 

it's a lieeeeeee

 

no one talks in dungeon becourse they actually busy and guess from what?

playing tha game, SURPRISE_HERE!!11!11oneone

 

and ufail so hard in one sentence… you say that no-one talk, don't even say hello and then you say "people are extremely rude" HOW? how they do it while "don't even talk"

 

I see that this is very stressful for you, you should take some time off to preserve your nerves and work on your spelling and grammar, your LFG tool won't make you literate unfortunately.

[raidyr]

I see that this is very stressful for you, you should take some time off to preserve your nerves and work on your spelling and grammar, your LFG tool won't make you literate unfortunately.

 

He does bring up a good point. How are people both mute and rude at the same time?

 

Anti-LFG stories are getting twisted

[Vrumpt]

Ok so lets assume a dungeon finder gets added, cross server or same server.

 

you get 3 people who are experienced players into a dungeon, and 1 player where its his/her first time running said dungeon. The three other players spacebar through the conversations because they've run this place like 50 times and already know the story line-per-line from memory. The 4th player does not, because its his first time running the dungeon and he eagerly wants to see how the flashpoint's story unfolds.

 

After getting through the first few cutscenes, the 3 veterans realize this other player isn't going to skip them, and they vote to kick him and it passes by unanimous decision. Over time, this behavior becomes the norm and suddenly all the great stories BioWare has set out to tell are completely useless because the veterans don't want to waste any time at all. They have no reason to care about that 4th guy because they probably won't see him again.

 

This situation is very plausible, and its just one of the ways adding a dungeon queuing system will ruin the game for tons of players who aren't fortunate enough to play all the time and reach the endgame quickly where nobody skips cutscenes.

[Seuria]

Funny that Blizz devs have repeatedly stated that they have continually made their dungeons harder (I know this to be true personally since I've seen the game at it's beginning and with it's recent Cataclysm expansion). The reason some think that they're easier is because the cross-server LFG tool has allowed for many many more people to create alts, and you're more likely to run a dungeon with someone that's seen it before on another character and can act as a guide. Most feel that this is to the game's benefit because it's caused a lot less frustration caused by simply being unaware of upcoming encounter mechanics.

This game (SWTOR) essentially demonstrates that there is a heavy skill gap present. I'm trying to help folks on the Jedi Knight forum, and it's a pretty stunning realization that having played a WoW hunter and fury warrior for years has left me with the ability to manage my companions with ease, adapt to situations where I must, and intuitively understand how to weave abilities together for my Jedi Sentinel. Consequently, I 1 or 2 shot the story bosses while others howl with frustration after repeatedly failing to take them down.

 

Experience matters, and there is no better path to understanding the ins and outs of your class then group work. Getting people into groups, and doing so with as little hassle as possible, is simply in the best interests of the game.

 

Bring on the cross server LFD.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Seuria

[JoyProtocol]

I really enjoyed the LFG tool in WoW. It did make many encounters less "personal", but it did not replace everything else. People would still put together guild/premade groups for higher quality play and better communication.

 

But if you happen to want to do Cademimu at 11pm, and nobody in your guild is on... you should not be screwed.

[Lashknife]

Except for hotfixes, none of the heroic dungeons in Cataclysm were nerfed. There were boss fixes of course for bugged behavior that was not the developers intent, but those fixes would have been made regardless.

 

I stopped reading here.

 

Cata heroics were nerfed within the first few months (as were raids). Half of the trash of HDeadmines was removed, the bosses made easier and their damage/health reduced. The first boss of HSFK even had the patch notes saying that, in his 'hubris', he 'forgot' how to cast his heal sub-50%. Every single level 85 instance was nerfed in Cataclysm to some degree in order to make it easier for people.

 

 

On topic: I'm all for an in-server queue system. Or better yet, server merges for low pop. servers.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Lashknife

[raidyr]

Ok so lets assume a dungeon finder gets added, cross server or same server.

 

you get 3 people who are experienced players into a dungeon, and 1 player where its his/her first time running said dungeon. The three other players spacebar through the conversations because they've run this place like 50 times and already know the story line-per-line from memory. The 4th player does not, because its his first time running the dungeon and he eagerly wants to see how the flashpoint's story unfolds.

 

After getting through the first few cutscenes, the 3 veterans realize this other player isn't going to skip them, and they vote to kick him and it passes by unanimous decision. Over time, this behavior becomes the norm and suddenly all the great stories BioWare has set out to tell are completely useless because the veterans don't want to waste any time at all. They have no reason to care about that 4th guy because they probably won't see him again.

 

This situation is very plausible, and its just one of the ways adding a dungeon queuing system will ruin the game for tons of players who aren't fortunate enough to play all the time and reach the endgame quickly where nobody skips cutscenes.

 

That's a pretty sad story.

 

But can you try to back up your perspective with something that doesn't reek of slippery slope mentality?

[Dramion]

I am still sticking with what I have said in the past. All that is needed as of right now is a global LFG channel it is activated at LVL 10, make it so you cannot link gear in it.

[raidyr]

But if you happen to want to do Cademimu at 11pm, and nobody in your guild is on... you should not be screwed.

 

Heh, tell that to the selfish anti-LFG crowd.

I stopped reading here.

 

Cata heroics were nerfed within the first few months (as were raids). Half of the trash of HDeadmines was removed, the bosses made easier and their damage/health reduced. The first boss of HSFK even had the patch notes saying that, in his 'hubris', he 'forgot' how to cast his heal sub-50%. Every single level 85 instance was nerfed in Cataclysm to some degree in order to make it easier for people.

 

I remember that patch note because it was supposed to go in with live but didn't make it, along with a lot of other "nerfs" that were actually design fixes. I didn't say they didn't happen; I said they would have occurred regardless.

[Seuria]

I stopped reading here.

 

Cata heroics were nerfed within the first few months (as were raids). Half of the trash of HDeadmines was removed, the bosses made easier and their damage/health reduced. The first boss of HSFK even had the patch notes saying that, in his 'hubris', he 'forgot' how to cast his heal sub-50%. Every single level 85 instance was nerfed in Cataclysm to some degree in order to make it easier for people.

 

 

On topic: I'm all for an in-server queue system. Or better yet, server merges for low pop. servers.

It was actually in their best interests, and if HM Flashpoints prove overly difficult I can assure you they'll also be nerfed. There is every bit as much of a skill gap within this game as there is within WoW, if not more. That, in general, makes for ugly group situations, be they LFD or premade.

[Vrumpt]

Rude

 

Whats rude is how all the pro-LFG peeps can do to support their argument is make sarcastic, witty, unfunny trolling comments all day to the people who bring up valid points against the inclusion of a LFG system.

 

This thread is turning into a flame war in part by the pro-lfg people who reject every valid point made by an anti-LFG person. Every comment i've seen basically follows the format:

 

"

 

LOLNO. LFG please.

"

 

And to the people who continue to quote Blizzard interviews, of course they are not going to say their own system they came up with doesn't work. Why would a company like Blizzard acknowledge any kind of failure when they currently are in a position of power? Every game designer, blogger, or reviewer knows the problems that LFG brought with it. Its common knowledge that LFG degraded many of the aspects that come with social interaction. Cross server works for warzones, but not for flashpoints where cooperation is key.

 

I'm sure no dps wants to que for 30 mins just to get kicked for not having as much experience as somebody who is online 24/7. Thats an awful gaming experience. Why would anybody ask for that?

[Seuria]

Whats rude is how all the pro-LFG peeps can do to support their argument is make sarcastic, witty, unfunny trolling comments all day to the people who bring up valid points against the inclusion of a LFG system.

Please point out where I have been rude. Are you working the ribs on that strawman of yours?

 

I'm sure no dps wants to que for 30 mins just to get kicked for not having as much experience as somebody who is online 24/7. Thats an awful gaming experience. Why would anybody ask for that?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/wyrmrest-accord/Thieren/simple

 

That's me. SV hunter.

 

My queues for the new 5 mans are generally less then 10 minutes during the middle of the morning. I've not been kicked ever, and while I can do my job I don't do it to the level a hardmode raider is capable of.

[raidyr]

Whats rude is how all the pro-LFG peeps can do to support their argument is make sarcastic, witty, unfunny trolling comments all day to the people who bring up valid points against the inclusion of a LFG system.

"It kills the community" is not a valid reason.

 

This thread is turning into a flame war in part by the pro-lfg people who reject every valid point made by an anti-LFG person. Every comment i've seen basically follows the format:

 

"

 

LOLNO. LFG please.

"

I haven't seen any of this. That said, arguing for the LFG tool takes a toll on people because it's like arguing with brick walls, but that gives brick walls a bad name. Atleast they have good attitudes

 

 

And to the people who continue to quote Blizzard interviews, of course they are not going to say their own system they came up with doesn't work. Why would a company like Blizzard acknowledge any kind of failure when they currently are in a position of power? Every game designer, blogger, or reviewer knows the problems that LFG brought with it. Its common knowledge that LFG degraded many of the aspects that come with social interaction. Cross server works for warzones, but not for flashpoints where cooperation is key.

"Every game designer, blogger, reviewer"? Name three. Name one.

 

Cross server Warzones don't require cooperation? News to me.

 

I'm sure no dps wants to que for 30 mins just to get kicked for not having as much experience as somebody who is online 24/7. Thats an awful gaming experience. Why would anybody ask for that?

I'm sure no DPS wants to wait for over an hour every night to get a group for that one HM they need to run for that one piece they need. Why would anyone else for that? Especially when a perfect grouping system is in place and ready to be implemented.

[Umbral]

I stopped reading here.

 

Cata heroics were nerfed within the first few months (as were raids). Half of the trash of HDeadmines was removed, the bosses made easier and their damage/health reduced. The first boss of HSFK even had the patch notes saying that, in his 'hubris', he 'forgot' how to cast his heal sub-50%. Every single level 85 instance was nerfed in Cataclysm to some degree in order to make it easier for people.

 

 

On topic: I'm all for an in-server queue system. Or better yet, server merges for low pop. servers.

Cata Heroics/raids were nerfed in accordance to what WoW has pretty much always done. That being they nerf the old just before implementing the new to allow for everyone to get a chance to gear up by doing the what is soon to be old, thus being able to start trying to do the new relatively soon after the new is released. The nerfs are coming quicker though, because the new content is coming quicker.

[raidyr]

 

 

My queues for the new 5 mans are generally less then 10 minutes during the middle of the morning. I've not been kicked ever, and while I can do my job I don't do it to the level a hardmode raider is capable of.

 

+1 this. Play a tank and DPS. My tank gets instant queues ofc, but my DPS has never had to wait more than 15 minutes even at 5am on a weekday. I've never been kicked, and 80% of my runs are perfectly smooth, with the remaining 20% being a split between AFK's and jerks. The AFKs we kick, the jerks I /ignore and never see again.

 

Funny enough, my /ignore list in WoW is 3 people. My /ignore list in SWTOR (if it mattered) would also be 3 people. So much for community, huh?

[Sendrel]

It creates a "fast food" culture that is anathema to cooperative content.

 

This, right here, is why people have a really hard time taking these kinds of complaints seriously. Anti-LFD folks have this propensity to see all of societies ills through the, bursting-at-the-seams microcosm of cross server LFD tools.

 

LFD is as much responsible for 'fast food culture' as it is the global financial downturn.

[JoyProtocol]

I am still sticking with what I have said in the past. All that is needed as of right now is a global LFG channel it is activated at LVL 10, make it so you cannot link gear in it.

 

That would be a great step in the right direction.

 

A similar note would be "LFG terminals" where you can post yourself as looking for a group.

[Vrumpt]

"It kills the community" is not a valid reason.

 

Community is a very important aspect of MMOs. Its a perfectly valid reason.

 

 

I haven't seen any of this. That said, arguing for the LFG tool takes a toll on people because it's like arguing with brick walls, but that gives brick walls a bad name. Atleast they have good attitudes

 

+1 for rude. I sir am not a brick wall.

 

"Every game designer, blogger, reviewer"? Name three. Name one.

 

Damion Schubert. Here let me get the quote for you.

 

There is huge social pressure to not be a jerk that goes away when the odds that you will never see these people again is high.

 

 

I'm sure no DPS wants to wait for over an hour every night to get a group for that one HM they need to run for that one piece they need. Why would anyone else for that? Especially when a perfect grouping system is in place and ready to be implemented.

 

All of my PUG experiences have us looking for DPS the longest. Tanks and Healers are quite in abundance i've found.

[Umbral]

Ok so lets assume a dungeon finder gets added, cross server or same server.

 

you get 3 people who are experienced players into a dungeon, and 1 player where its his/her first time running said dungeon. The three other players spacebar through the conversations because they've run this place like 50 times and already know the story line-per-line from memory. The 4th player does not, because its his first time running the dungeon and he eagerly wants to see how the flashpoint's story unfolds.

 

After getting through the first few cutscenes, the 3 veterans realize this other player isn't going to skip them, and they vote to kick him and it passes by unanimous decision. Over time, this behavior becomes the norm and suddenly all the great stories BioWare has set out to tell are completely useless because the veterans don't want to waste any time at all. They have no reason to care about that 4th guy because they probably won't see him again.

 

This situation is very plausible, and its just one of the ways adding a dungeon queuing system will ruin the game for tons of players who aren't fortunate enough to play all the time and reach the endgame quickly where nobody skips cutscenes.

... I guess it''s plausible, but on the other hand, like it is with other games with a cross-server LFG tool, that person that just got kicked? ya, they're very quickly re-qued and in another group, and given that with a cross-server LFG tool you're much more likely to run into good people than bad, their experience won't have been damaged too much.

 

Let's also counter "plausible" with what isn't just plausible. Something that is definitely happening in the game right now. There is absolutely no way to deal with jerks, ninjas, etc right now other than everyone dropping group, exiting the instance, re-setting it, and having to wait who knows how long to fill the group again, if it can even be filled again. How do you think the many many people that have gone through this very situation I just described felt? I'll tell you. They left the game. Or are feeling about their game experience at this very moment? Probably on a very thin line whether they're going to keep playing SWTOR.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Umbral

[Vlacke]

Whats rude is how all the pro-LFG peeps can do to support their argument is make sarcastic, witty, unfunny trolling comments all day to the people who bring up valid points against the inclusion of a LFG system.

 

This thread is turning into a flame war in part by the pro-lfg people who reject every valid point made by an anti-LFG person. Every comment i've seen basically follows the format:

 

"

 

LOLNO. LFG please.

"

 

 

This is the truth.

 

It actually pleases me quite a lot me that their precious tool won't be seen in the foreseeable future, i bet it aggravates them immensely.

[Seuria]

Funny enough, my /ignore list in WoW is 3 people. My /ignore list in SWTOR (if it mattered) would also be 3 people. So much for community, huh?

I guess I've never gotten the notion that "community" is defined as your friends list where you only add competent people you like to run dungeons with. Maybe my definition is different because I play on a RP server or maybe it's different because, hey, I'm social in games, and there are a LOT of ways to do that.

 

1.) Give out gear instead of vendoring or AHing it.

2.) Give out credits / gold.

3.) Offer to run lowbies through low level dungeons and pass on all the loot.

4.) Create social channels and invite people you meet out in the world to join them.

5.) Create a social guild instead of one devoted to downing content.

 

I'm sure there are more, too. In WoW I'm in a channel with friends that span 4 to 5 different guilds. I can always queue with someone if I want, and we mass queue for LFR once a week. Right after Christmas I got a long time RP buddy to sub to WoW, and she was insta-friended by the entire channel. She died in Elwynn 28 times, and we all lovingly teased her about it as she found her feet. We give her gear, gold, help her when she needs it, explain concepts like crafting and speccing to her, run her through instances for lore and gear.

 

That, in my opinion, is social gaming. Not standing in SW or the Fleet spamming for a group.

[raidyr]

Community is a very important aspect of MMOs. Its a perfectly valid reason.

 

Yes it's an important aspect of MMO's.

No it's not your ace card that you can pull out and trump every argument with no counter using logic or reasoning. Which is how it's being used. The arguments against LFG that amount to "It kills the community" stops there. All points about how it does kill the community have been countered offhandedly.

 

 

+1 for rude. I sir am not a brick wall.

You do make a convincing stand-in.

 

 

Damion Schubert. Here let me get the quote for you.

 

He, like so many others, seems to reference systems he doesn't fully understand. I don't know about other games, but in WoW if you add someone to your ignore list you cannot be grouped with them ever again. Full stop. It's perfect accountability. You never see that person again, and his LFG pool grows smaller for every person he offends.

 

Find me someone who understands the systems they are criticizing.

 

 

 

All of my PUG experiences have us looking for DPS the longest. Tanks and Healers are quite in abundance i've found.

 

Exact opposite here. We get DPS instantly or damn instantly, I'm the other DPS with a healer friend, then we spend between 30 minutes to an hour or more looking for a tank.