Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Sendrel]

Why does it have to be black and white though, why can't people have both x-server and self server in a LF-flashpoint tool. Sure people who only group with people on the same server might have a longer queue but I don't think they will complain about that, and getting more people to queue can only mean faster queues for everyone right?

 

I dont' think any reasonable person would argue against having a toggle for same server only grouping included with a (potentially) cross server LFD.

 

Options are good.

[Vitiock]

But you can't. You go on to agree in the very next sentence that the percentages are the same.

 

 

 

Because the percentages are the same, the amount of decent folks you run into will (in absolute numbers) also be greatly increased.

 

This is a repost from page 84 so i'm putting it in a spoiler tag to reduce the post size

 

 

Um ignoring people and not grouping with them when you have a limited population definately does have an effect on the community by their perception. Lets assume that at peak times 350k people are playing tor total (this was given by some analyst lets assume it's correct). Lets assume that a low % of people are trolls/ninjas, say 1%, and that your average modest server has 1k people play concurrently during peak.

 

Now troll/ninja wise cross server we have 3500 and 10 on your server (yes this is low) now you ignore 1 person, your chances of grouping with a troll/ninja local server wise went down by 1/10 chance, where cross server it went down 1/3500 or barely any.

 

Now lets look at it from another angle and say that 10% of your population is tanks on local thats about 100 people concurrent and cross server 35000, now you're a troll and you get ignored by a tank and can't group with him, your potential tanks just went down 1% cross server it went down .00002857 or hardly even noticeable. Lets say you get ignored by a tank on a weekly basis and lose them for grouping, thats 52 tanks or roughly half of your server not gruoping with you in a year, cross server that 1.5%.

 

The difference in population in weeding out people you don't want to play with is huge, and opening that up to cross server severely changes the amount of hurt someone feels for being a dick, it doesn't take the community working together to blackball someone, that persons own interactions will cause single people to ignore them and that will add up over and over again and it will add up to quite a difference for that person.

 

 

If you can still not understand my point that having a lower population means that my ignore has a greater effect on MY game play and groups i'm sorry but I can't do much more to explain it.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Vitiock

[somehuman]

The first step should definitely just be a self server LFG search tool. It might not even be necessary to do cross server. We don't really know. All we have is /general chat and that worthless LFG toggle that only shows about 12 characters. Being able to put yourself as available for a certain role looking for up to 3 different flashpoints and/or warzone groups would be a HUGE step forward.

[Sendrel]

This is a repost from page 84 so i'm putting it in a spoiler tag to reduce the post size...

 

If you can still not understand my point that having a lower population means that my ignore has a greater effect on MY game play and groups i'm sorry but I can't do much more to explain it.

 

Yeah, I read that post. If you still can't get beyond the most fundamental understanding of statistics, I can't do much more to explain it. Yes, in absolute numbers, the amount of people exhibiting bad behavior will be smaller, but the percentage of good folks will be greater.

[somehuman]

If you can still not understand my point that having a lower population means that my ignore has a greater effect on MY game play and groups i'm sorry but I can't do much more to explain it.

 

Instead of just trying to mitigate potential flaws, look at the absolute best experience possible. With cross server, if you find a good group, you got lucky. You always have a random chance, though. You might never see those same people ever again.

 

With single server, if you find someone that you like to group with, you can group with them every day. You can build a friends list and a whole community.

 

Random, anonymous hookups are never as satisfying as building a lasting relationship. Friends are more important than loot. Getting dungeons cleared and gearing people up doesn't lead to player retention. Building friends lists and having inter-personal relationships does.

 

You might make enemies, but that only makes the friendships that much stronger. It causes you to appreciate your buddies even more.

 

Between my guild, my friends list, and general chat, I've never had to wait more than 10-15 minutes to get a group going in SWTOR. The problem is minor. Destroying the community would do far more harm t han good.

[Vitiock]

The first step should definitely just be a self server LFG search tool. It might not even be necessary to do cross server. We don't really know. All we have is /general chat and that worthless LFG toggle that only shows about 12 characters. Being able to put yourself as available for a certain role looking for up to 3 different flashpoints and/or warzone groups would be a HUGE step forward.

 

There are plenty of off peak times/low population servers that probably do need cross server to do certain flashpoints/quests, (though x-server lfd won't help with quests) Ignoring this wont keep people on low population servers from leaving in frustration (server merges and rerolling don't really strike me as the best fix either).

 

Giving people options never hurts I would say at the very least cross server needs to be enabled under certain conditions such as no tanks in your level band, or your self server queue has not enough people in your level band, nobody currently in your level band running groups through the queue, and you have been waiting for 5-10 minutes.

 

I personally want a healthy population in this game, more players playing means more money to bioware which means more money spent on improving the game, however I also want the game to work for me so the best bet is options, while I may want to keep self server I know that isn't everyones bag and doesn't work for everyone and so we should be accommodating to them in ways, that doesn't mean we shouldn't build it out in such a way that doesn't also help people who want to stay self server also.

[somehuman]

Yeah, I read that post. If you still can't get beyond the most fundamental understanding of statistics, I can't do much more to explain it. Yes, in absolute numbers, the amount of people exhibiting bad behavior will be smaller, but the percentage of good folks will be greater.

 

Exactly. The percentage of people who are rude, anti-social, or just suck at video games will be relatively consistent, even with cross-server group finders.

 

The difference will be that WITHOUT cross-server, there are consequences. If someone is a total jerk, they can be punished by creating a bad reputation. If someone is a total jerk on a cross-server group, nothing happens. They get out of that group and then queue again to spread their stupidity to another 3 unsuspecting people.

 

Cross-server groups lead to stagnation of maturity. It also creates a sense of disposability. It doesn't matter if you're mean to strangers. If you see the same people every day, you'll hesitate before being rude.

 

Anonymity on the internet NEVER led to ANY sort of positive social movements.

[Touchbass]

The first step should definitely just be a self server LFG search tool. It might not even be necessary to do cross server. We don't really know. All we have is /general chat and that worthless LFG toggle that only shows about 12 characters. Being able to put yourself as available for a certain role looking for up to 3 different flashpoints and/or warzone groups would be a HUGE step forward.

 

+1 for a reason post Somehuman. I believe whole heartedly that a X-LFD is going to be mandatory but we don't know how it'll work in SWTOR yet cause we haven't seen it. A LFD + tool first (soon I hope) and then a X-LFD to help those who are suffering would be a fair compromise.

 

The only issue I have is timelines. People are already having a terrible time with low population servers/faction imbalances/odd hours of play. As the game matures that disparaged group will include low level quests (both group and FP's). If it takes a year to implement X-LFD a lot of damage will be done

[somehuman]

There are plenty of off peak times/low population servers that probably do need cross server to do certain flashpoints/quests, (though x-server lfd won't help with quests) Ignoring this wont keep people on low population servers from leaving in frustration (server merges and rerolling don't really strike me as the best fix either).

 

Giving people options never hurts I would say at the very least cross server needs to be enabled under certain conditions such as no tanks in your level band, or your self server queue has not enough people in your level band, nobody currently in your level band running groups through the queue, and you have been waiting for 5-10 minutes.

 

I personally want a healthy population in this game, more players playing means more money to bioware which means more money spent on improving the game, however I also want the game to work for me so the best bet is options, while I may want to keep self server I know that isn't everyones bag and doesn't work for everyone and so we should be accommodating to them in ways, that doesn't mean we shouldn't build it out in such a way that doesn't also help people who want to stay self server also.

 

I think jumping straight to Cross-server queues is a bit extreme, though. Take the first step, first. They should put a single-server queue system in place, before they try tinkering further. Hell, they should put a /lfg channel in. The game doesn't even have THAT basic feature.

 

There were plenty of times that I've enabled the LFG option, and saw maybe one or two other people with it activated. It's subtle. Most players don't know it exists. You can only put a few words into what you're looking for. Half of what someone types doesn't even show up when you look at their comment. It's broken. It's a really awful system that does not work.

 

In other games, there's a list of every available dungeon and group quest for your level. You can check several of them to be flagged as LFG. THAT is what TOR needs, first. If that doesn't greatly reduce the problem, THEN go on to considering cross-server.

Edited January 24, 2012 by somehuman

[Touchbass]

Between my guild, my friends list, and general chat, I've never had to wait more than 10-15 minutes to get a group going in SWTOR. The problem is minor. Destroying the community would do far more harm t han good.

 

This is a straw man. The experiences/situations you are encountering are NOT common amongst the people who are arguing for a x-LFD.

 

I'm taking my +1 I gave back and adding an additional -1 for using a slippery slope

[Neiloch]

Well I say if they do x-server make it optional and let people make their own conclusions. If people can be satisfied with same server, awesome. If people like doing x-server for w/e reason, that's cool too.

[DarthKhaos]

Dude... I list myself in the stupid tool while I'm shouting in general... does nothing. Usually there's 1 or 2 other people flagged in /who, so most people aren't even aware of the damn thing. Yes I use it, but it doesn't help... at all.

You keep showing my point. I'm trying to get people to spread the word about using it. Don't you read what I said about making people aware? Did you see what my sig said?

 

Just what makes you think that people haven't been using it, or don't know how to use it?

 

That no one uses it?

 

No one uses it because it's a very poor design, and not what people want.

 

Players want a cross -server LFG tool. They're saying it here, and there's absolutely no way that BW doesn't know that they're screaming it in game. Over and over. Players are extremely frustrated about how hard it is to get groups together. Many have given up trying altogether. If BW doesn't know that, then they definitely don't have people in-game monitoring general chat at fleet on enough servers.

Take a look at the link in my sig and ask me again if I know how to use it.

Also if you took a moment to read what I said instead of attempting to flame. Until a better system comes about. Why limit yourself even if it's not what you want, even if it's crude. If using it in addition to advertising in General increases your chance/speed for a group wouldn't it be worth it to use until another system is in place?

 

I am trying to get people to spread the word on their server. Get more people using the tool so that you would have less stress finding groups.

[Sendrel]

The difference will be that WITHOUT cross-server, there are consequences. If someone is a total jerk, they can be punished by creating a bad reputation. If someone is a total jerk on a cross-server group, nothing happens. They get out of that group and then queue again to spread their stupidity to another 3 unsuspecting people.

 

You can't reliably punish anyone single server either. That's what a good bit of this (and the other) thread has been about. Blacklists and servers policing themselves are largely a myth and entirely anecdotal.

 

That said, its really not your place to punish people in game. If you feel its warranted by really egregiously bad behavior, submit a ticket ingame. Otherwise, ignore works better to ensure you never have to group with someone you don't want to again.

[Touchbass]

I think jumping straight to Cross-server queues is a bit extreme, though. Take the first step, first. They should put a single-server queue system in place, before they try tinkering further. Hell, they should put a /lfg channel in. The game doesn't even have THAT basic feature.

 

There were plenty of times that I've enabled the LFG option, and saw maybe one or two other people with it activated. It's subtle. Most players don't know it exists. You can only put a few words into what you're looking for.

 

In other games, there's a list of every available dungeon and group quest for your level. You can check several of them to be flagged as LFG. THAT is what TOR needs, first. If that doesn't greatly reduce the problem, THEN go on to considering cross-server.

 

Timeline is a concern here. Every game that has introduced a x-LFD has tried almost every step along the way with no success. How many more times do we have try tools that don't alleviate the problems they are set out to solve?

[Neiloch]

The only issue I have is timelines. People are already having a terrible time with low population servers/faction imbalances/odd hours of play. As the game matures that disparaged group will include low level quests (both group and FP's). If it takes a year to implement X-LFD a lot of damage will be done

 

If it takes them a year to implement x-server or same server this game will be in serious trouble by then.

 

The successes and even mistakes of LFD have already been done and are out there to see. EQ2 tried to implement some 'lite' version of LFD and it failed MISERABLY. No gear check except for 3 dungeons, the only incentive was a slight exp boost, the code they used to pick classes to form groups was abysmal, and it was same server.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Neiloch

[somehuman]

Timeline is a concern here. Every game that has introduced a x-LFD has tried almost every step along the way with no success. How many more times do we have try tools that don't alleviate the problems they are set out to solve?

 

It's impossible to say which of HUNDREDS of variables leads to server decline. Without having a decent self-server queue system, how could you possibly get a cross server queue system working?

 

Everything Bioware doesn't have a good track record for the efficacy of their game systems, so far. Half of them are pretty broken, when first implimented. Something like a crappy cross server queue system could destroy the game.

[Touchbass]

You can't reliably punish anyone single server either. That's what a good bit of this (and the other) thread has been about. Blacklists and servers policing themselves are largely a myth and entirely anecdotal. .

 

I think we need some context. Consequences where born in the era where it took you months of gaming to reach max level AND, here is the tricky part, any form of progress required players. If you pissed people off for whatever reason, you were ****ed. You needed to spend another 3-6+ months leveling and there were no server tranfers/name changes.

 

Being an ******e =/= no progress anyways. Look up the WoW video of the illdian funeral slaughter, they destroyed the entire funeral congregration and they were one of the top guilds on the server. So can we get past these myths?

Edited January 24, 2012 by Touchbass

[Touchbass]

Something like a crappy cross server queue system could destroy the game.

 

WoW had to do a lot of work to move the servers off of independance. I have no clue where Bioware is on that compared to WoW or even if they built the fundamentals that could make it work.

[somehuman]

If it takes them a year to implement x-server or same server this game will be in serious trouble by then.

 

So far, Bioware has been faster at fixing things than any other game I've played. Some games have existing bugs for months after launch without even mentioning them. Bioware has made serious steps in fixing the majority of problems that have popped up. There are a few dozen I could still list, but every time a new patch comes out, the top 5 or 10 on my current list get knocked off and totally fixed.

 

Social systems MUST be at the top of their current work order. That's a pretty obvious aspect of the game. I'm shocked it's not coming in 1.2, but I would guess it'll be coming soon after that. At this rate, probably in Feb or March, at the latest.

[DarrkLore]

Personally, I don't feel we need one but I'd be okay with a LFD tool as long as it's NOT cross server. I'd really rather see them keep the cross server stuff out of this game though, except for PvP.

[Vitiock]

I think jumping straight to Cross-server queues is a bit extreme, though. Take the first step, first. They should put a single-server queue system in place, before they try tinkering further. Hell, they should put a /lfg channel in. The game doesn't even have THAT basic feature.

Most servers have a "custom private" channel thats LFG that people can join and use that is global it doesn't really help.

 

In other games, there's a list of every available dungeon and group quest for your level. You can check several of them to be flagged as LFG. THAT is what TOR needs, first. If that doesn't greatly reduce the problem, THEN go on to considering cross-server.

 

That still requires someone to act out as a group leader and assemble the group, it still means that mid-dungeon if someone leaves they arn't replaced as quickly, and doesn't account for off-peak time/low population servers/factions. There are issues with that system, just like there are issues with self-server automated group, and issues with a x-server one.

 

Most people will use a cross server automated one if thats the only choice over trying to form a group on their server because it's easy and convenient, that should tell you something about what most people want.

 

A large chunk of people still feel that x-server gives more anonymity and causes A) a greated number of jerks and B) less recourse to the population of jerks but will/would still use a cross server tool (i'll admit I would, hell I would take cross server over the tool you describe). Most of this can be solved by giving people an equally convenient tool that has options and appeases both sides.

[Touchbass]

So far, Bioware has been faster at fixing things than any other game I've played. Some games have existing bugs for months after launch without even mentioning them. Bioware has made serious steps in fixing the majority of problems that have popped up. There are a few dozen I could still list, but every time a new patch comes out, the top 5 or 10 on my current list get knocked off and totally fixed.

 

Social systems MUST be at the top of their current work order. That's a pretty obvious aspect of the game. I'm shocked it's not coming in 1.2, but I would guess it'll be coming soon after that. At this rate, probably in Feb or March, at the latest.

 

Bioware has had no choice to fix them, there are so many bugs were out of control that it's pretty insane. I really think Bioware isn't that fast for this reason: Game was releashed premature in the middle of bug fixes for the holiday deadline, they fixed them so quickly cause they were probably well known and they had the working ideas down of how to fix them. Same with that "content" patch, it shouldn't been in release but they've labeled as a free content package, lol.

[Touchbass]

Personally, I don't feel we need one but I'd be okay with a LFD tool as long as it's NOT cross server. I'd really rather see them keep the cross server stuff out of this game though, except for PvP.

 

I don't understand this, X-PvP killed a lot of the pvp communities, why is one ok and not the other?

[Sendrel]

I think we need some context. Consequences where born in the era where it took you months of gaming to reach max level AND, here is the tricky part, any form of progress required players. If you pissed people off for whatever reason, you were ****ed. You needed to spend another 3-6+ months leveling and there were no server tranfers/name changes.

 

Even then (I assume you're talking about EQ), the only way you were well and truly screwed was if you could build a consensus. Its still a myth that blacklists and servers policing themselves work as consistently and in the manner in which their advocates claim they do.

[somehuman]

Most servers have a "custom private" channel thats LFG that people can join and use that is global it doesn't really help.

 

 

 

That still requires someone to act out as a group leader and assemble the group, it still means that mid-dungeon if someone leaves they arn't replaced as quickly, and doesn't account for off-peak time/low population servers/factions. There are issues with that system, just like there are issues with self-server automated group, and issues with a x-server one.

 

Most people will use a cross server automated one if thats the only choice over trying to form a group on their server because it's easy and convenient, that should tell you something about what most people want.

 

A large chunk of people still feel that x-server gives more anonymity and causes A) a greated number of jerks and B) less recourse to the population of jerks but will/would still use a cross server tool (i'll admit I would, hell I would take cross server over the tool you describe). Most of this can be solved by giving people an equally convenient tool that has options and appeases both sides.

 

That kind of instant gratification sacrifices social ties. It's just like how fast food has dramatically less nutritional value and greatly increased health detriments.

 

You can either have things done right or done fast. You can't have both. I prefer having them done right.