Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Touchbass]

Oh but yet you would have me take your example that the pro crowd is in the majority based on what? WoW's subscription numbers? that is hardly appropriate since WoW is an massive anomaly in the mmo industry as it is.

 

Then what? you are back to basing your opinion on how many people you see responding in the thread and your own perception. You are in no stronger a position. A position I refute based on my own observation that the majority are against cross server. Something you even admit since in your zeal to win it never even occurred to you that I was okay with an in server tool, yet place myself in the anti lfd camp because I am strongly against cross server.

 

I find it laughable that you don't see how condescending and bearing of a self inflated ego you come off having when you post things like the above.

Full of yourself much? no not you...

Just a little tip, that's why I have no interest in talking to you.

 

No, I said if your survey is valid then my survery from observation is valid which are both stupid notions. WoW is not an anomaly, wow has forever changed the MMORPG landscape. An anomaly by defintion is an outlier so that isn't used correctly.

 

While you're at work and bored count the amount of insults you've thrown my way and maybe the 1-2 remarks that offended you in response. You seem to the be one who is getting upset all the time and throwing out insults when I ask you rebuke something you don't want to address. You may call that "Grandstanding" but I call that logic.

 

I've spend sometime talking to you, I'm glad your passionate about your gaming experiences, we all are. We need to find working solutions to our problems and I'm trying my best, maybe we can find some common ground. Maybe we can talk about this internal feature and a timeline?

[Zilkin]

Cross-server dungeon finder asap BioWare.

[ferroz]

Dungeon Finder is not needed at this time and it's a stupid idea anyways.

This is just an assertion; if you make this, you should back it up.

 

You don't

 

How hard is it for you to socialize or be in a guild and ask in voice chat / guild chat?

I prefer real socialization over your "just form cliques" version of socialization.

 

Besides, this is just poo flinging.

 

Really, are you that lazy that you can't take your hands off that cheeseburger to type something out, you would rather just click a button right? Pffftt

So, since you didn't do anything but make assertions and fling poo to distract people from your lack of valid arguments... you're basically admitting that you don't actually have a rational counter argument, eh? Edited January 18, 2012 by ferroz

[Touchbass]

Forrez I wish I was as good at words as you are. keep up the solid work

[BlueSkittles]

You may be able to live with that wait. The impatient masses will not accept a 2 hour wait.

 

When cataclysm launched the queue time for DPS was 40 minutes on average. This was treated as an utter catastrophe and they burned down the forums until nerfs were put in place.

 

What makes you think for any reason it will be any different here. We are less than a month in and people are clamoring to make this game more like WoW at every turn. There is Zero cause to believe that they will stop complaining until Bioware caves and makes it EXACTLY like WoW.

 

Here's a possible solution: With WoW's new LFR they created a new tier of raid content for us "newb/lazy/carebear" people. Maybe Bioware can do the same for Flashpoints/Operations. Keep Normal and Hard modes for us "carebear/lazy/newb" people and add it into a WoW-like LFD system but keep the Nightmare modes out of the system for you "social" people. That way us "newb/carebear/lazy" people can still experience the content and you "social" people can have your elite tiers to laud over us regular folks.

[savagepotato]

No, I said if your survey is valid then my survery from observation is valid which are both stupid notions. WoW is not an anomaly, wow has forever changed the MMORPG landscape. An anomaly by defintion is an outlier so that isn't used correctly.

 

While you're at work and bored count the amount of insults you've thrown my way and maybe the 1-2 remarks that offended you in response. You seem to the be one who is getting upset all the time and throwing out insults when I ask you rebuke something you don't want to address. You may call that "Grandstanding" but I call that logic.

 

I've spend sometime talking to you, I'm glad your passionate about your gaming experiences, we all are. We need to find working solutions to our problems and I'm trying my best, maybe we can find some common ground. Maybe we can talk about this internal feature and a timeline?

 

Sorry but that's BS.

 

Every second thing you have said to me has been a condescending borderline attack, to outright personal attack.

 

I didn't even notice the post until ferroz quoted it but calling me Mr Potato head, does that sound familiar? No that doesn't sound like a personal attack from you at all...

 

Clearly you are the one on the higher ground... Right. You go back and forth playing good cop bad cop all by yourself.

[ferroz]

I think that's part of the point.

 

Nothing is ever going to be good enough for some people until you are instantly ported to and from your dungeon in seconds. On a whim, 24 hours a day, and can finish that dungeon in 15 minutes.

This is a slippery slope fallacy. The rest of your post is one big Ad Hominem fallacy. Please try using a valid argument next time.

[Nastar]

I really hated the WoW dungeon finder, it felt like a one night stand.. (Meet, do your thing, leave)

 

While grouping together with people who wants to join is more fun since you're sosialising more.

 

but if TOR needs it, i vote for a non-cross server dungeon finder

[savagepotato]

No, it was 30 minutes on average, 40 minuites at bad times, 25ish at good times.

 

I ran a LOT of pug dungeons at that point, and the 40 minute average that keeps getting quoted isn't an average... it was a "bad case" not an "average case" .

 

And that's only at max level... low level dungeon queues for dps during cata were <5 minutes on average. You had to be way off peak to wait longer than that.

 

I'm personally fine with it being the same queue times here.

 

My leveling characters will have nigh instant queues; my main will have instant queues. Works for me.

 

 

It's not their fault that wow has good, well polished features

 

The fact that you've arguing using a very blatant slippery slope fallacy says that there is plenty of reason to believe that they'll stop complaining long before BW makes it exactly like wow..

 

It's not a slippery slope fallacy at all, Have you not been paying attention to the rest of the forum?

 

Every second thread is a raging rant about how this game needs to be more like wow "NOW or I'm cancelling my sub"

 

Every single game I have played SINCE wow has been the same thing. Forums burned to the ground by people demanding WoW.

 

It's simple observation.

Edited January 18, 2012 by savagepotato

[Touchbass]

Well I had to travel home from work.

 

Now if you recall what I said earlier was that the current system can use some improvement however it would not work if people don't use it. I am not opposed to a better LFG interface, never have been. I just believe an automated tool is unnecessary.

 

The current system, while crude will allow players to see the available tanks, healers, dps and groups for whatever flashpoint they are looking for no matter where they are in the game. The problem is people do not want to use it because it is not an hit a button go afk and wait for the dun dun dun sound when their queue is ready.

 

I really think they need to improve this system, WoW tried it for awhile and had to scratch it cause it didn't work. The automated part just makes the system work when it's at low capacity. Ok, here's an idea that could work for the both us. What about whenever you sign up for the server lfg you have to list a role and as soon as you and another player join in the LFG through a manual invite it prompts you to "complete a group" by finding the next two available players by who signed up first on the manual list who aren't /afk in the game.

[RachelAnne]

No, it was 30 minutes on average, 40 minuites at bad times, 25ish at good times.

 

I ran a LOT of pug dungeons at that point, and the 40 minute average that keeps getting quoted isn't an average... it was a "bad case" not an "average case" .

 

And that's only at max level... low level dungeon queues for dps during cata were <5 minutes on average. You had to be way off peak to wait longer than that...

 

Thats not true.

 

Maybe you played at asia or just have bad memories, but at Europe the queues for dps were 40 min at good times and 1h at average, by cata release. Cant say how it is today, but if I look at the WOTLK queues then I doubt that you can get in today in less then 40 minutes still, as a dps.

 

Low lvl dungeons vary a lot, you can wait 10 minutes or 30 or even longer - its totally random - even as a tank I had to wait there 10 minutes allready.

 

 

But no matter if 30 or 40, the chat way is still much faster and safe.

 

 

As I said earlier, if a dps did wait 50 min for a dungeon and then get´s in and the tank instantly leaves so that he has to queue again, or that he can only do the final boss - then he did waste his time.

 

Its much better to look for a group by asking people, it does take 5-10 minutes but then you will be sure that the dungeon can be finished in time.

At the LFG tool you never know what you get, these automation tools lack totally the options of making a good & fun group.

[Touchbass]

Sorry but that's BS.

 

Mr Potato head, does that sound familiar? No that doesn't sound like a personal attack from you at all..f.

 

LOL that is that you got angry at me in the first place? I was joking around with you trying to be playful. Sorry if I upset you, it was a term of endearment. You can play with my name too, something along the lines of "Mr. can't Touchbass with reality " or something like that. Smile up dude, you'll be home from work soon

[HoneyBoy]

Thats not true.

 

Maybe you played at asia or just have bad memories, but at Europe the queues for dps were 40 min at good times and 1h at average, by cata release. Cant say how it is today, but if I look at the WOTLK queues then I doubt that you can get in today in less then 40 minutes still, as a dps.

 

Low lvl dungeons vary a lot, you can wait 10 minutes or 30 or even longer - its totally random - even as a tank I had to wait there 10 minutes allready.

 

 

But no matter if 30 or 40, the chat way is still much faster and safe.

 

 

As I said earlier, if a dps did wait 50 min for a dungeon and then get´s in and the tank instantly leaves so that he has to queue again, or that he can only do the final boss - then he did waste his time.

 

Its much better to look for a group by asking people, it does take 5-10 minutes but then you will be sure that the dungeon can be finished in time.

At the LFG tool you never know what you get, these automation tools lack totally the options of making a good & fun group.

 

Then I don't see where your problem with a LFD lies since if it were ever implemented you could still form your groups "the chat way" and know they will be "finished in time".

[BlueSkittles]

Its much better to look for a group by asking people, it does take 5-10 minutes but then you will be sure that the dungeon can be finished in time.

 

Glad to know you are one of the lucky ones. But for some of us others, it is in no way 5-10 minutes, in either SWTOR or WoW and there is no guarantee the dungeon/flashpoint will be finished in any reasonable time frame, let alone finished at all.

[Touchbass]

Its much better to look for a group by asking people, it does take 5-10 minutes but then you will be sure that the dungeon can be finished in time.

At the LFG tool you never know what you get, these automation tools lack totally the options of making a good & fun group.

 

Hello Rachael,

 

If you believe it's faster to find a group by asking for members in a specific channel then why don't you continue to do that while other players find groups through a tool better optimized for their playstyle? I can understand someone not wanting to use the LFD tool, the simple solution is not to use it.

 

I have to disagree with the experiences, I've had many great experiences through the LFD tool and met a lot of new friends through the Real ID feature attached to it who I regularly group with at odd hours. Yeah there the occasionally ******e but again, votekick and /ignore work fine for the majority of the playerbase who use that tool.

[savagepotato]

Thats not true.

 

Maybe you played at asia or just have bad memories, but at Europe the queues for dps were 40 min at good times and 1h at average, by cata release. Cant say how it is today, but if I look at the WOTLK queues then I doubt that you can get in today in less then 40 minutes still, as a dps.

 

Low lvl dungeons vary a lot, you can wait 10 minutes or 30 or even longer - its totally random - even as a tank I had to wait there 10 minutes allready.

 

 

But no matter if 30 or 40, the chat way is still much faster and safe.

 

 

As I said earlier, if a dps did wait 50 min for a dungeon and then get´s in and the tank instantly leaves so that he has to queue again, or that he can only do the final boss - then he did waste his time.

 

Its much better to look for a group by asking people, it does take 5-10 minutes but then you will be sure that the dungeon can be finished in time.

At the LFG tool you never know what you get, these automation tools lack totally the options of making a good & fun group.

 

The wow system sucks for many reasons but one of the main reasons it sucks is because it's one size fits all. You don't know what it's doing, but you are assured that it is making the best decisions for you possible in choosing a group. And in the process you are left with an extremely limited tool that doesn't even give you the choice if you want it to form a custom group.

 

As well it utterly ignores grouping for world objectives since Blizzard doesn't seem to care about them and their solution is make everything trivial and solo-able.

 

This is not a compelling multiplayer experience.

[savagepotato]

Hello Rachael,

 

If you believe it's faster to find a group by asking for members in a specific channel then why don't you continue to do that while other players find groups through a tool better optimized for their playstyle? I can understand someone not wanting to use the LFD tool, the simple solution is not to use it.

 

I have to disagree with the experiences, I've had many great experiences through the LFD tool and met a lot of new friends through the Real ID feature attached to it who I regularly group with at odd hours. Yeah there the occasionally ******e but again, votekick and /ignore work fine for the majority of the playerbase who use that tool.

 

You know full well that once the tool becomes the standard this falls by the wayside.

 

I've seen people laughed at for even asking to form a group in WoW without the use of the dungeon finder. Much less finding someone actually willing to do it.

 

All you do is destroy one form of grouping in favor of another far easier one.

 

This is not much different than the argument in the days of Ultima Online that by introducing the PVE realm it would have no effect on the PVPers as you could still choose to PVP. Ignoring the fact that it decimated the base of players interested in the other realm and ultimately the game declined horribly.

 

If you introduce a choice that is so dominating as that you are not really introducing a choice at all. Again this trivializes the entire position to even say something like this.

Edited January 18, 2012 by savagepotato

[HoneyBoy]

This is not much different than the argument in the days of Ultima Online that by introducing the PVE realm it would have no effect on the PVPers as you could still choose to PVP. Ignoring the fact that it decimated the base of players interested in the other realm and ultimately the game declined horribly.

.

 

It didn't "decimate players interested" in the other realm. They apparently were never interested in a PvP realm to begin with and were only there because THEY HAD NO CHOICE. When the opportunity to play the way they wanted presented itself they picked accordingly.

 

Yeah adding in a automated dungeon finder may make it harder for you to find groups your own way, but once again it does not outright stop you. You can still type /invite and walk to the flashpoint with your premade group.

 

What you're asking for is to eliminate choice in how people form groups because you're scared it would make it more difficult for you to form groups.

 

If any game adds in an automated dungeon finder and the majority of the playerbase prefers that method for whatever reason then so what!? That's obviously what the majority wanted.

[ferroz]

Sorry but that's BS.

 

Every second thing you have said to me has been a condescending borderline attack, to outright personal attack.

At least they're only borderline attacks rather than outright insults and poo flinging, eh?

 

I didn't even notice the post until ferroz quoted it but calling me Mr Potato head, does that sound familiar? No that doesn't sound like a personal attack from you at all...

Pot... kettle... black.

[Touchbass]

If you introduce a choice that is so dominating as that you are not really introducing a choice at all. Again this trivializes the entire position to even say something like this.

 

OR almost nobody wants to form groups that way, which I think is the case.

 

3) The majority of these people opposing the LFD are hypocrites

 

The only thing that changed was that we could no longer force people to communicate with others when they didn’t wish it or it wasn’t convenient. If you had a laundry list of friend’s pre-LFD to always do groups with, you should have seen absolutely no change at all in your gameplay experience. What could have possibly changed? You would log on, talk to your guildies and friends and come up with a time to run dungeons as you always did prior. If you were unable to facilitate a group as it sometimes can happen, you’d ask if anyone knew anyone or you simply just ask in trade. When someone refers to bad experiences with the LFD tool, I ask myself how they found themselves interacting with the tool in the first place. You clearly couldn’t find anybody to group with so instead of sitting around in Orgimmar spamming for groups you realized what the rest of us realized years ago that it that wasn’t fun. You then took the approach of joining a queue intended for a different gaming experience and got upset when it wasn’t to your liking. I can’t be the only one who is baffled by this, can I?

 

Why does it matter how long it takes to find a group? Just manually do it the way you always did and eventually you'll find groups. Or maybe you didn't even have any friends to begin with, if that is the case i'm sorry cause I did lots of manual groups with my friends and pugged sometimes in trade.

[Touchbass]

Pot... kettle... black.

 

I don't know how he's upset with being called Mr. Potatohead, I still think that name is hilarious and I don't even mean malice.

[ferroz]

Thats not true.

 

Maybe you played at asia or just have bad memories, but at Europe the queues for dps were 40 min at good times and 1h at average, by cata release. Cant say how it is today, but if I look at the WOTLK queues then I doubt that you can get in today in less then 40 minutes still, as a dps.

 

Low lvl dungeons vary a lot, you can wait 10 minutes or 30 or even longer - its totally random - even as a tank I had to wait there 10 minutes allready.

I'm talking US servers... perhaps the EU servers had queue times like that but the US ones were nothing like that.

 

I NEVER once had a queue over 50 minutes as a dps. I have a feeling that you Europeans just don't like playing tanks or something.

 

I haven't run a dungeon in wow in a month; the last time I did, dungeon queues were ~15 minutes as a max level dps doing the top end dungeons, and slightly less for the regular heroics (which included the troll heroics at that point. A couple of times I got dungeon pops in 7 or 8 minutes.

 

As for low level dungeons... I almost didn't have time to do regular quests on my hunter... the queues were that fast. I don't think I ever had a queue longer than 8 minutes except when I was home sick and played a bit at around 10am server time... I actually had 15 minute queue times then. But I also ran into a situation where I was trying to do a quest in southern barrens, and the queue kept popping in <3 minutes. I barely got in, got my bearings and killed a few mobs before I was back in a dungeon. I talked about it with another guy in zone who was running into the same situation (you know, since we could get dungeons without having to sit in orgrimar to find them).

 

 

You're also totally ignoring best case scenarios; as a tank, I'll have much faster queues than I could ever hope to get forming groups in chat.

 

But no matter if 30 or 40, the chat way is still much faster and safe.

No safer; I actually ran into more "ninjalooters" in groups before lfd, and I did less dungeons that way. Not higher percentage, just more of them.

 

And certainly no faster. If not for LFD, I'd have never done a dungeon on my last 3 alts until I hit the level cap... there simply weren't people doing them. At the level cap I'd often go multiple days without getting groups because it took to long for me to find a group for me to actually have time to run the dungeon.

 

Its much better to look for a group by asking people, it does take 5-10 minutes but then you will be sure that the dungeon can be finished in time.

No, 5-10 minutes is not correct. Before LFD I was generally looking for anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour, and I had to sit in dalaran if I wanted a group. A couple of times I gave up after looking for more than 2 hours.

 

Back then, I had to choose between running dailies (like the tournament ones) vs getting groups. After LFD I could do both, and get faster groups to boot.

 

At the LFG tool you never know what you get, these automation tools lack totally the options of making a good & fun group.

I'm fine with not knowing what I'm going to get. I like it, in fact. I'm comfortable getting outside of my clique. Edited January 18, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

It's not a slippery slope fallacy at all, Have you not been paying attention to the rest of the forum?

Yes is is, and Yes, I have.

 

you assert that giving about X will cause Y end result; you don't show the any of the implication relationships that actually link X and Y, but you assert that because of X, Y is true. That's a pretty classic example of a slippery slope fallacy.

 

Every second thread is a raging rant about how this game needs to be more like wow "NOW or I'm cancelling my sub"

No, I think I've seen one thread like that. THe rest of them are "this game needs to have this good feature that wow and other MMOs have done well, or I'm not going to remain interested in playing" Edited January 18, 2012 by ferroz

[Bruticuss]

People that are anti-LFD have no real life friends and aren't social enough, so they want to force others to talk to them via an online game.

 

OR

 

They have all day to play with no real life of any sort, and just don't want to see casual gamers that log in for an hour or so succeed in forming FP runs.

 

There I said it.

 

Oh and then they call folks that want LFD lazy... why are we lazy? Because we want to log in for a little while then back out so we can continue living life? Doesn't sound very lazy to me.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Bruticuss

[savagepotato]

Yes is is, and Yes, I have.

 

you assert that giving about X will cause Y end result; you don't show the any of the implication relationships that actually link X and Y, but you assert that because of X, Y is true. That's a pretty classic example of a slippery slope fallacy.

 

No, I think I've seen one thread like that. THe rest of them are "this game needs to have this good feature that wow and other MMOs have done well, or I'm not going to remain interested in playing"

 

For crying out loud, the link is the players crying until they get what they want. It is observable, It happened with plenty of extremely obvious staring you in the face evidence to anyone who isn't willfully ignoring it.

 

Around and around you go dancing around it and deny some more.

Edited January 18, 2012 by savagepotato