Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Umbral]

 

 

 

Damion Schubert. Here let me get the quote for you.

 

With all due respect to him, he's worked on what games with a cross-server LFG/LFD tool again?

[Seuria]

This is the truth.

 

It actually pleases me quite a lot me that their precious tool won't be seen in the foreseeable future, i bet it aggravates them immensely.

So, you're vindictive and mean-spirited and yet the community should listen to you?

[raidyr]

This is the truth.

 

It actually pleases me quite a lot me that their precious tool won't be seen in the foreseeable future, i bet it aggravates them immensely.

 

Not aggravation (not yet, so long as my server hits Very Heavy pop every night) so much as confusion and depression. Confusion as to how an MMORPG developed by Bioware, published by EA, on a monstrous budget released in 2011 without even a rudimentary grouping tool (the broken LFM window notwithstanding), and depression because I know Bioware is going to lose a lot of subs and income from their decision to hold back on implementing such a vital feature. My priority is to keep this game active because it's enjoyable, and nothing keeps a game active like having a community focused enough to complete content, pay for that content, then have the developers cycle that money into continued delivery.

 

My hearts with the game, and it's more sad than anything to see you take pleasure in our attempt to save it.

[Vlacke]

With all due respect to him, he's worked on what games with a cross-server LFG/LFD tool again?

 

Who cares ?

The man has spoken and has done so in a way that leaves little or no room for different interpretations, Schubert was perfectly clear.

[AeonWeapon]

you get 3 people who are experienced players into a dungeon, and 1 player where its his/her first time running said dungeon. The three other players spacebar through the conversations because they've run this place like 50 times and already know the story line-per-line from memory. The 4th player does not, because its his first time running the dungeon and he eagerly wants to see how the flashpoint's story unfolds.

 

After getting through the first few cutscenes, the 3 veterans realize this other player isn't going to skip them, and they vote to kick him and it passes by unanimous decision. Over time, this behavior becomes the norm and suddenly all the great stories BioWare has set out to tell are completely useless because the veterans don't want to waste any time at all. They have no reason to care about that 4th guy because they probably won't see him again.

 

Already happens... next case?

[Sendrel]

...or maybe it's different because, hey, I'm social in games, and there are a LOT of ways to do that.

 

Pretty much this.

 

The idea that LFD, in and of itself, kills community is so laughable because it posits only one route through one part of the entire game as the only method for being social and building said community.

[raidyr]

Who cares ?

The man has spoken and has done so in a way that leaves little or no room for different interpretations, Schubert was perfectly clear.

 

In that he doesn't understand the specific system he is referencing.

 

I can easily interpret that by the fact that he assumes that there is no accountability in atleast WoW's Dungeon Finder system. He could be talking about other MMO's. I don't have experience.

[Umbral]

Whats rude is how all the pro-LFG peeps can do to support their argument is make sarcastic, witty, unfunny trolling comments all day to the people who bring up valid points against the inclusion of a LFG system.

 

This thread is turning into a flame war in part by the pro-lfg people who reject every valid point made by an anti-LFG person. Every comment i've seen basically follows the format:

 

"

 

LOLNO. LFG please.

Please quote even 5 posts from this thread from different people that follows that format. Sure there may be one or two over zealous advocates of the system, but I bet you that you won't find five different people, and I also bet you that for every one you can quote, I can quote 5 or 6, or more even from the anti crowd that basically consist of this.

 

"No no no no!!!! It kills communities!! (no proof of this other than "this one time, on this one server, in this one game ..." is ever offered) You people are just lazy WoW kiddies!!!!! You people are social misfits that don't belong playing mmos!!!!"

[Vrumpt]

With all due respect to him, he's worked on what games with a cross-server LFG/LFD tool again?

 

What does it matter?

 

I'm not a game developer at all and I see all the problems that cross-server LFG brings with it. You don't need to be a game designer to understand and see how LFG hurt WoW. The same holds true for the aspects that helped it too. That one point is a very very valid and true statement that so many people who played WoW after it was added have most certainly experienced, myself included.

 

Wipe on a boss, or trash? Don't bother with trying again, your tank has already left because he gets 1 second queue times. Also don't count on any tank joining your partially completed instance, tanks are special people who only deserve the best groups with 10 minute dungeon runs. I've been there and its not fun.

 

I do not want that added to SWTOR at all. No thanks. No. No. NO.

[Sendrel]

Who cares ?

The man has spoken and has done so in a way that leaves little or no room for different interpretations, Schubert was perfectly clear.

 

To answer the rhetorical question: you should care. Game developers can and do get things wrong quite often. When they come to the conclusion that they were wrong (and they will sooner or later), they'll add cross server LFD without even a backward glance.

[Vlacke]

So, you're vindictive and mean-spirited and yet the community should listen to you?

 

I am not vindictive or mean spirited, it's quite the opposite actually, i see much more of that type of behavior from people who are pro lfg on these pages.

[raidyr]

 

Wipe on a boss, or trash? Don't bother with trying again, your tank has already left because he gets 1 second queue times. Also don't count on any tank joining your partially completed instance, tanks are special people who only deserve the best groups with 10 minute dungeon runs. I've been there and its not fun.

 

I distinctly remember the former happening a lot in TBC when heroics were very challenging and no one wanted to waste a night wiping over and over for a chance at gear.

 

You keep coming up with examples that would happen regardless.

[Seuria]

I am not vindictive or mean spirited, it's quite the opposite actually, i see much more of that type of behavior from people who are pro lfg on these pages.

And yet you're essentially basking in the failure of others.

 

Since I started posting in this thread a bit ago the only people I've seen who are building strawman and engaging in such behavior are you and the guy you quoted.

 

Seriously, stop acting like that and present a real argument. You're demonstrating, instead, why people shouldn't consider your opinion and damaging your own position in the process.

[Umbral]

Who cares ?

The man has spoken and has done so in a way that leaves little or no room for different interpretations, Schubert was perfectly clear.

Sooo even though he has no experience working on any game that has a cross-server LFG/LFD tool, because he's in the position he is, you take his "belief" (since that is all it is, which he did also state by the way although you conveniently left that fact out ) as gospel?

 

Man, I bet even though that is pretty flattering for him, if he's even a bit of a centered individual he'd find that even more disturbing.

[raidyr]

To answer the rhetorical question: you should care. Game developers can and do get things wrong quite often. When they come to the conclusion that they were wrong (and they will sooner or later), they'll add cross server LFD without even a backward glance.

Oh for sure, it's definitely going to come to the game. The fact that they left the possibility open makes it a guarantee. As soon as people on the lower-end servers are quitting in droves do to not being able to run content (ie, play the game) it will come.

 

Just a question of how much money Bioware wants to lose

I am not vindictive or mean spirited, it's quite the opposite actually, i see much more of that type of behavior from people who are pro lfg on these pages.

 

I haven't seen any attacks from pro-LFG. Anti-LFG posts reek of ad hominem character assassinations.

[MalignX]

1. Kills community - Community is what you make it. The pro-LFG side doesn't need to have community to play a video game. You want community, THEN that should be your reason for making a guild. You don't ever have to talk to any of the mean jerks outside your guild. Honestly running STORYLINE content with other players was a much more social event than flashpoints. Flashpoints have a specific goal (enter, kill, loot), NO ONE I've run a flashpoint thus far socializes at all.

 

2. Makes people lazy? Perhaps the people that treat this as a video game, and not a lifeline to the world outside their basements, don't want to have to become "leet" to be able to run flashpoints. Which are essentially little mini stories with better gear (and usually cooler looking). They want to be able to log in and use the hand full of hours they have to run it, learn it, enjoy it, be done with it. Ya people are going to do stupid things, mean things, unwanted things, it's not isolated to LFG tools. Most normal people realize that you shouldn't pull if the group isn't ready, or roll need on loot you can't use. Some people don't, and that's just life. Why don't you sign a petition to BW to have all their subscriptions canceled because they are JERKS! which leads me to:

 

3. People in PuGs are jerks. New flash, there are jerks everywhere. Your mommy can't mediate every unpleasant encounter you have with someone else.

 

4. Guilds will be useless. You mean useless by not being able to lord over whatever endgame content the rest of us would like to run? You mean we're bad people for not wanting to commit the kind of time you're willing to commit to a video game, and there for should not be allowed to certain content because it's for "Hardcore Guilds"? Meh, if the fall out of the LFG is "hardcore guilds". Yay.

 

6. Killed WoW. This is just funny.

 

I mean really Vrumptmoron and Darth Idjit before (Oh ya, I'm trolling you botards). The reason everyone is dismissing you out of hand at this point is this:

 

They've already stated it's coming. So when you nerdrage that they better not do it! Or you'll quit! people should stop asking for it! It just turns to blah blah blah. Go sit down for a moment, come to terms with the fact that it IS coming, and then come back with something other than:

 

It kills the game! it ruins community! it killed wow! These tired reasons have been stated over and over again, and you're shocked no one is giving your new nerdrant any credence. It's not gonna kill the game, casual players outnumber "hardcore" players. Community meh (see above). It hasn't killed WoW, even if they lost a MILLION players because of their LFG, they still have 9 million more that have been playing that game for almost 10 years.

 

Just shut up already. There is no point in even arguing with you people any more because it's simply more fun to watch you foam at the mouth (keyboard).

 

Wheww.. now I need to find some goats to eat. Yum.

Edited January 27, 2012 by MalignX

[Seuria]

Wipe on a boss, or trash? Don't bother with trying again, your tank has already left because he gets 1 second queue times. Also don't count on any tank joining your partially completed instance, tanks are special people who only deserve the best groups with 10 minute dungeon runs. I've been there and its not fun.

As opposed to some classes not being able to get groups because they were perceived to be weaker in a particular aspect of the game (whether true or not), or allowing entire segments of content to fail to meet population expectations because grouping is through guilds or friendslists, or losing subs because other games (current and future) might offer a similar enriching experience with less hassle?

[Umbral]

What does it matter?

 

I'm not a game developer at all and I see all the problems that cross-server LFG brings with it. You don't need to be a game designer to understand and see how LFG hurt WoW. The same holds true for the aspects that helped it too. That one point is a very very valid and true statement that so many people who played WoW after it was added have most certainly experienced, myself included.

 

Wipe on a boss, or trash? Don't bother with trying again, your tank has already left because he gets 1 second queue times. Also don't count on any tank joining your partially completed instance, tanks are special people who only deserve the best groups with 10 minute dungeon runs. I've been there and its not fun.

 

I do not want that added to SWTOR at all. No thanks. No. No. NO.

So let's just disregard all the hundreds of posts from different people that have generally had very positive experiences with the cross-server LFD tool... since.. you know... Vrumpt has spoken and has determined everyone that has had nothing but, or mostly, positive experiences with a cross-server LFD tool is.. what? Lying?

[Vlacke]

Not aggravation (not yet, so long as my server hits Very Heavy pop every night) so much as confusion and depression. Confusion as to how an MMORPG developed by Bioware, published by EA, on a monstrous budget released in 2011 without even a rudimentary grouping tool (the broken LFM window notwithstanding), and depression because I know Bioware is going to lose a lot of subs and income from their decision to hold back on implementing such a vital feature. My priority is to keep this game active because it's enjoyable, and nothing keeps a game active like having a community focused enough to complete content, pay for that content, then have the developers cycle that money into continued delivery.

 

My hearts with the game, and it's more sad than anything to see you take pleasure in our attempt to save it.

 

My heart is also for the game, i plan to play it for a long time because i like it.

 

It's just that our opinions on this matter are very much different and it's ok, perfectly normal.

I believe that game can thrive even without the system you want them to implement, you disagree and that's that.

 

I see in your signature that you are advocating for some other things, like AC change which i am STRONGLY against, on the other hand i agree with you Legacy name change etc.

 

Bottom line is that some of those things will be made available from Bioware, i am sure of that, but i am also sure that some of them wont be incorporated.

 

Bottom line is, i repeat, that this game can thrive without some of things because it's good, and it will keep getting better and better as the time passes.

[raidyr]

It hasn't killed WoW, even if they lost a MILLION players because of their LFG, they still have 9 million more that have been playing that game for almost 10 years.

 

What's funny is that people saw the headlines then just used it as an excuse to try to push any agenda they want without really reading the story. WoW has lost a couple million subs over the last year or so, but over 800,000 of those were Chinese, which were lost for two very important factors that have NOTHING to do with the dungeon finder: Chinese gaming market, and the state of the game.

 

In China (and Asia/SEA specifically) the market for competing games is MUCH larger than in the west. This is combined with the fact that the Chinese version of WoW is a gimped version of WOTLK, which isn't even connected with the current version of WoW Blizzard has been making and working on.

 

As I said, it's people seeing a headline, thinking about how much they personally don't like LFG, and trying to connect the dots. The fact is that after the LFG tool was added WoW subscriptions went up and continued to go up until a few months after Cataclysm, where they have been on the decline.

 

It has NOTHING to do with the LFG tool, and is simply people trying to place correlation with causation.

[Umbral]

To answer the rhetorical question: you should care. Game developers can and do get things wrong quite often. When they come to the conclusion that they were wrong (and they will sooner or later), they'll add cross server LFD without even a backward glance.

Well, in the last 6 or 7 years the genre is just filled with game producers and the like that have been so right about things.....

 

Oh wait ........

 

Not to insult them mind you. They deserve our respect for doing a job we aren't doing. Like anyone doing their jobs. This blind belief that everything that drips out of the dev/producer of a fanboi's preferred game is some pearl of wisdom not to be questioned? Ya, that is a bit scary. Probably to them as well.

[Umbral]

 

Bottom line is, i repeat, that this game can thrive without some of things because it's good, and it will keep getting better and better as the time passes.

Except, ummm it isn't thriving. At least nothing is showing me it's thriving. Look at all the posts from people that are already calling for server merges and such after the first free month was up. Go out and look at the trends on sites that track gaming activity. If it is "thriving" then I would admit I'm wrong, but I'm sorry, all the empirical evidence, outside of EA/BW talking head's positive spin speak, is telling me that it's on a quick downhill slope atm. (I do honestly wish that I was wrong about that. Really I do. I want the game to succeed. I want to play SWTOR for a long time. I won't play a dead mmo though. Been there done that with AoC and WAR.) Edited January 27, 2012 by Umbral

[Vlacke]

And yet you're essentially basking in the failure of others.

 

Since I started posting in this thread a bit ago the only people I've seen who are building strawman and engaging in such behavior are you and the guy you quoted.

 

Seriously, stop acting like that and present a real argument. You're demonstrating, instead, why people shouldn't consider your opinion and damaging your own position in the process.

 

Yes, well, i am sorry to break it to you but this thread existed long before you jumped on board, long before you even joined the forum debates about this issue were raging, it's like nothing new honestly.

I have stated my arguments before.

 

How about you, why is the implementation of this system so important, you seem more than eloquent enough so i really doubt that finding a group to do certain things in game is a problem for you?

Is it because there isn't enough people on your server, is it because WoW has it and all that WoW has SWTOR should have also, in all seriousness there are people who are used to Warcraft's systems, have played a lot and now are not so thrilled that this game doesn't have some of those.

 

These are all legitimate reasons in my opinion for someone wanting this tool, so i am not mocking here, just to be perfectly clear.

[Vlacke]

Except, ummm it isn't thriving. At least nothing is showing me it's thriving. Look at all the posts from people that are already calling for server merges and such after the first free month was up. Go out and look at the trends on sites that track gaming activity. If it is "thriving" then I would admit I'm wrong, but I'm sorry, all the empirical evidence, outside of EA/BW talking head's positive spin speak, is telling me that it's on a quick downhill slope atm. (I do honestly wish that I was wrong about that. Really I do. I want the game to succeed. I want to play SWTOR for a long time. I won't play a dead mmo though. Been there done that with AoC and WAR.)

 

My server isn't dead, it IS actually thriving, it's packed and new people are coming also.

When i look at the server list i see a lot of very heavy populated servers, some full, so i really find the threads about the game dieing and such quite hilarious.

 

People cried at the beginning because of queues, they opened up more servers, now people on those servers are complaining how it's empty, surprise surprise...

 

You probably aren't on one of those packed servers, whose fault is that?

[Sendrel]

This blind belief that everything that drips out of the dev/producer of a fanboi's preferred game is some pearl of wisdom not to be questioned? Ya, that is a bit scary.

 

I think what happens is that they get to a point when every argument they've made has been countered and they fall back on 'the devs posted X, you're wrong/I'm right!!'. Completely failing to address any of the issues that have been brought up, just 'see, I'm right because some dev said so!'. Just a really shortsighted argument because, 1) devs do change their minds about things - in fact they do it all the time - and, 2) in order to be consistent, they'd have to embrace the opposite when the devs do change their mind.