AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The problem here is that many people who say, "We need a dungeon finder" are specifically talking about the LFD in WoW. And many of us who have played other MMOs in addition to WoW recognize that it's a horrible implementation. Completely wrong. DCUO had a great "dungeon finder", so does Rift, City of Heroes has it for certain missions. Works fine in all these games. The MMO world does not revolve around WoW, and your limited MMO experience with WoW does not qualify you to speak for half of the TOR community who come from other MMOs besides WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Every week players get a number of 'tags'. Good and bad tags. During a run, at any time, players can award others a 'good' or 'bad' tag. I see where your thinking is coming from, but if you think about it, this is a bad idea, sorry. This would create a quota system, so to speak. You know how at the end of each month you have to especially look out for cops, because if they haven't written enough tickets that month, they have to find absurd reasons to hand out tickets in order to fill their quota? Many people would use up all their "good and bad tags" at the end of the week before they were replenished, just for the sake of using them up. This would result in them tagging people as "bad" for trivial reasons, some would even tag random players as "bad", who they haven't had any interaction with, just to use up the tags. Some people would tag people just for being in the enemy faction. Think about it. It might seem silly to a rational thinker, but many people are not rational lol, and they would really do these things. I understand where you're coming from, but this wouldn't work in practice. Edited January 25, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) And it does work. If you never ever witnessed good community in mmorpg then maybe your perception was flawed, or you simply never cared about comminuty. I'm not saying I never witnessed "good community" in MMOs, but I will say, I don't care about community, sorry, I have other priorities, and that doesn't make me bad or antisocial. In fact I may be more truly sociable than some people who try to force community, because I understand have to have simple, healthy, fun social interactions with people, without complicating things. I just want to play the game and have easy going interactions with people. Some of us don't want to have to forge deep-seeded and complex relationships with people in a video game just to play it. I'm very cool with people, I don't screw anyone over and I'm a good sport... but I don't want to spend my time and energy forging relationships and community and having to be BFFs with people, attached at the hip, in order to team up with them. That's no real friendship anyway, it's an association for mutual benefit. Hell I'm not usually into guilds even. I'm not saying I'm not sociable, and I am friendly, and I love to do as much as possible with a group... but I keep the social aspect very casual and simple. And that's my right. I should not be forced to get closer to people than I am comfortable with to play the content in the game we're all paying the same amount for. You can't force people to socialize the way you feel they should. Hell, in real life I don't get that close with most people, but my friends still love me. Because real friends understand you and the way you work, and accept you for it. If they tried to force me to change my ways, tried to force some heavy, complex relationship on me that required alot of my energy, they would quickly lose me as their friend. Edited January 25, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evildestroyer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Seriously? 100% accountability on virtual "community"? Come on man, this is a hobby for most of us, something we do for fun. It's not a job, or an essential part of our lives. As said thousands of times before, LFG with the following basic options: - checkbox for intra server only - checkbox for no teleport to FP - vote to kick - Operation loot system (ie, pre-rolled items) Simple, use it however way you like. Afraid of jerks from other servers? Don't use it, or check the box for intra server only. Have time to go from Belsavis north bonus area back to the fleet without Fleet Pass/Quick travel? By all means, enjoy the view. Just don't force your play style on others. To those Anti LFG people. This game is their life. Why you think they are so against it? Compared to us, we play this game because ITS A GAME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 To those Anti LFG people. This game is their life. Why you think they are so against it? Compared to us, we play this game because ITS A GAME. Yeah, that's what i was getting at in my last post too, kind of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 By the way, nobody in this thread has ANY proof of a LFD impacting on social behaviour. I'm a tank on Jar'kai Sword, the most social interaction I have to do is: "hi" and "bye". Out of all the heroics I have made 2 "friends", in otherwords added 2 healers to my list. I dont see where this LFG spamming makes people any more social. Welcome to our thread Durio! I threw down the gauntlet a few threads ago asking for any reason why an X-LFD would be damaging without using rhetoric or conjecture on the matter. All I've gotten is an elongated reason that is destroys communities based on personal evidence. The fact that they can't produce any evidence is why we are going to get a X-LFD eventually Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) To those Anti LFG people. This game is their life. Why you think they are so against it? Compared to us, we play this game because ITS A GAME. Honestly I hate to disparage the other side of the argument with a crude remark but I think this is true. They take the thing way to seriously and spend too much time on the game adn they wish to "show off" their superiority. Funny thing is everyones queues went down with the addition of X-LFD except those "social butterfly" dps. Edited January 25, 2012 by Touchbass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Make no mistake, it's hit just like the PvE dungeons are when it comes to accountability and community. The difference is there's no loot drops and it's working for a specific goal in the WZ, and at the end are awarded tokens to exchange for loot based on what we did and if our side won or lost. What's good for one is good for another. In what way? How are there any issues with Accountability when you queue in for a WZ? There's nothing to be accountable for. The worst it could get is that a player AFKs the whole match... well, cross-server or no, there's no way to hold a person accountable for that since there's a queue. You can't blacklist him from your WZ queue. Regardless, I hold no position on cross-server PvP. I have no problem with it, but I also wouldn't care if it didn't happen. Though I do think that for PvP, the benefits outweigh any perceived negatives. I also agree we need to have the LFG tool improved... but using WoW's PoS is not the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Welcome to our thread Durio! I threw down the gauntlet a few threads ago asking for any reason why an X-LFD would be damaging without using rhetoric or conjecture on the matter. All I've gotten is an elongated reason that is destroys communities based on personal evidence. The fact that they can't produce any evidence is why we are going to get a X-LFD eventually This whole thread is opinions. Can you give me any facts that with an x-server dungeon finder people on average would find this game more enjoyable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I also agree we need to have the LFG tool improved... but using WoW's PoS is not the solution. Most gamers love the X-LFD that wow implemented, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Most gamers love the X-LFD that wow implemented, sorry. That's a personal experience, and an opinion, I asked for a fact. Can you please provide me with facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Most gamers love the X-LFD that wow implemented, sorry. Provide me with the statistics and sampling method you used to come to this conclusion. Because I can point you to thousands of players that say the exact opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXgatorboyXx Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) 201 pgs and counting, they are about to have to make a new thread to keep this rant going, it amazes me that this wasnt included in launch. I'm actually upset that I let them charge my card for another month. Like someone said earlier it's 2012, you think this would come in the launch title. Its like coming out with a new halo and expecting everyone to go back to Xboxconnect instead of using Live, comeone BW ***, waste of 90 dollars (game+2 months) IMO. LOL @ you guys who want to spam LFG in chat all day, some of us have 8-5 jobs, when i get home from a long day and want to do a run, It shouldnt take an hour+ just to get a group going, THIS ISNT RIGHT Edited January 25, 2012 by xXgatorboyXx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) This whole thread is opinions. Can you give me any facts that with an x-server dungeon finder people on average would find this game more enjoyable? Look at all the people in this thread, including myself, who feel their gaming experience is ruined by inability to find a team in a reasonable time. I haven't even logged in much for the last week because I feel stuck and unable play the content I want to play. FACT: I know many of us would have far more fun with this tool, and I know that those of you who don't want the tool simply don't have to use it, it has no impact on you then. You play your way and I'll play my way. FACT: We can both have our way and don't have to force others to play in a way that isn't desirable to them. You know the saying? "Live and let live." Edited January 25, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 LOL @ you guys who want to spam LFG in chat all day, some of us have 8-5 jobs, when i get home from a long day and want to do a run, It shouldnt take an hour+ just to get a group going, THIS ISNT RIGHT Here here. The thing is, many of these people don't have other responsibilities and they can play all the time, and spend all day "forging community relationships" to have a pool of players to team up with. So they want to gain an unfair advantage from this by having access to content that those of us who have less time have trouble doing with any regularity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This whole thread is opinions. Can you give me any facts that with an x-server dungeon finder people on average would find this game more enjoyable? You haven't read our thread so I'm not going to go deep into the matter. 1) People are suffering on low population servers/faction imbalances/odd playtimes/time sensitive pepole. There is simply no one around to find a group with as evidenced by the litany of complaints on the matter. The issue is we can't get a proper survey on the matter but we can tell the issue is a big one, just how big is the problem. 2) There was no significant drop off in subscriptions with the implementation of the LFD, in fact subscriptions rose with it's addition. If claims of "destroys community" can't be valided with numbers that they aren't facts. I can't comment on Rift but I'm sure there subscriptions didn't take a nose dive. Also if you look at server activity on 'low population' dead servers at the time I'm sure you'd see the aforementioned groups population increasing. 3) Bioware's changed their stance. Originally it was "we'll look into this if it comes up .." to "we are going to implement something 100%". You know why? They got their dungeon, subscription dump off data that recommended they need something for the average gamer. 4) It won't change a thing for people who don't use it. Read my post on page 6 that someone reposted for more on this matter. There is almost not way to get additional proof into the matter because I don't work at Bioware and I can't read their dungeon activity or reasons why people quit. All I can say as it's more then reasonable that the addition of a X-LFD is good for the average gamer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Look at all the people in this thread, including myself, who feel their gaming experience is ruined by inability to find a team in a reasonable time. I haven't even logged in much for the last week because I feel stuck and unable play the content I want to play. Personal experience, there are many to the contrary. FACT: I know many of us would have far more fun with this tool, and I know that those of you who don't want the tool simply don't have to use it, it has no impact on you then. Again this is a personal experience, the same argument goes along the lines of "FACT: I know my game and the community I enjoy would be irreparably harmed by the inclusion of a cross server dungeon finder." You play your way and I'll play my way. FACT: We can both have our way and don't have to force others to play in a way that isn't desirable to them. You know the saying? "Live and let live." There whole argument is that the inclusion of this changes the dynamic of the game and community in to a way they enjoy less so no it's not a simple live and let live to them. Their facts are just as strong as yours aka they are opinions and examples gathered they are not FACTS. I personally don't care if there is the option for a cross server dungeon finder as long as there is one for self server too, but to say that their opinions don't count because they aren't facts and yours are some how facts is just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Provide me with the statistics and sampling method you used to come to this conclusion. Because I can point you to thousands of players that say the exact opposite. The millions who continue to play WoW outnumber your thousands. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The millions who continue to play WoW outnumber your thousands. Sorry. Oh man as far as I know most people still say the burning crusade was the best expansion for wow, which didn't have a cross server dungeon finder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvtcarnage Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I know it's coming, but will it be to late? I think that the majority of people do want this because i would hope that most players work for a living and value their time unlike lets say someone in their mothers basement or someone collecting welfare that have nothing but time to balk out lfg in /1. And me being on republic side makes matters even worst. Other games like Rift (Wish Trion made this game) I got to play every instance as I leveled and made lots of friends from it, where as here I meet very few (sharding) and end up leaving planets with out playing all the content because I could not find groups while i did regular quests and I'm a healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You haven't read our thread so I'm not going to go deep into the matter. 1) People are suffering on low population servers/faction imbalances/odd playtimes/time sensitive pepole. There is simply no one around to find a group with as evidenced by the litany of complaints on the matter. The issue is we can't get a proper survey on the matter but we can tell the issue is a big one, just how big is the problem. I said average person, yes there are some people who arn't going to like the exclusion of the tool and some people who wont like the inclusion this isn't really a fact that it's needed or a fact that the average enjoyment of the game will increase. 2) There was no significant drop off in subscriptions with the implementation of the LFD, in fact subscriptions rose with it's addition. If claims of "destroys community" can't be valided with numbers that they aren't facts. I can't comment on Rift but I'm sure there subscriptions didn't take a nose dive. Also if you look at server activity on 'low population' dead servers at the time I'm sure you'd see the aforementioned groups population increasing. Please provide a citation of north American/European subscriptions during this time since the Asian "subscriptions" are so messed up as a metric. 3) Bioware's changed their stance. Originally it was "we'll look into this if it comes up .." to "we are going to implement something 100%". You know why? They got their dungeon, subscription dump off data that recommended they need something for the average gamer. And bioware has also stated they are philisophically against a cross server dungeon finder at this stage in the game. I don't think this stance has changed. 4) It won't change a thing for people who don't use it. Read my post on page 6 that someone reposted for more on this matter. There is almost not way to get additional proof into the matter because I don't work at Bioware and I can't read their dungeon activity or reasons why people quit. All I can say as it's more then reasonable that the addition of a X-LFD is good for the average gamer. Right nobody in here is arguing with facts it's all opinions so calling one side out for using opinions while doing it yourself is just plain stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Personal experience, there are many to the contrary. When this discussion first started out on the forums it was literally a 80% against any form of X-LFD or LFD+ (server only) with 15% asking for intro server and another 5% asking for X-LFD. In the weeks that have followed since things have changed so much that Bioware themselves have agreed a LFD tool is needed for server only at the moement. Again this is a personal experience, the same argument goes along the lines of "FACT: I know my game and the community I enjoy would be irreparably harmed by the inclusion of a cross server dungeon finder." Straw man. Reasonable logic has been presented to the concerns of a signficantly growing problem for gamers, simply saying "no" to the issue isn't relevant enough anymore. There whole argument is that the inclusion of this changes the dynamic of the game and community in to a way they enjoy less so no it's not a simple live and let live to them. No the issue is the old school gamers want it their way and to hell with everyone else. Compromises are been thought of this in this thread, an internal only LFD with a wait time penatly and a x-LFD is a very reasonable suggestion. Their facts are just as strong as yours aka they are opinions and examples gathered they are not FACTS. I personally don't care if there is the option for a cross server dungeon finder as long as there is one for self server too, but to say that their opinions don't count because they aren't facts and yours are some how facts is just plain stupid. We do have facts, you won't accept them cause they aren't a smoking gun and don't agree with your version of events Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeonWeapon Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Personal experience, there are many to the contrary. Again this is a personal experience, the same argument goes along the lines of "FACT: I know my game and the community I enjoy would be irreparably harmed by the inclusion of a cross server dungeon finder." There whole argument is that the inclusion of this changes the dynamic of the game and community in to a way they enjoy less so no it's not a simple live and let live to them. Their facts are just as strong as yours aka they are opinions and examples gathered they are not FACTS. I personally don't care if there is the option for a cross server dungeon finder as long as there is one for self server too, but to say that their opinions don't count because they aren't facts and yours are some how facts is just plain stupid. You call me stupid, but I'm going to say that if you just can't possibly see how we can IN FACT both have our way, how we can both be happy and play the ways we want, then you're a self-centered idiot. And you deserve no more of my attention. It's people like you who ruin "community" because you don't care about what anyone else wants, you want to deny things to people just because you don't like other people playing any way but your way. I don't want your damned community forced on me, I want to log in for a while after work, run a couple FPs to unwind, and go on with life. Edited January 25, 2012 by AeonWeapon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You call me stupid, but I'm going to say that if you just can't possibly see how we can both have our way, you're a self-centered idiot. And you deserve no more of my attention. It's people like you who ruin "community" because you don't care about what anyone else wants, you want to deny things to people just because you don't like other people playing any way but your way. I don't want your damned community forced on me, I want to log in for a while after work, run a couple FPs to unwind, and go on with life. Lol read my posts, i'm not against a dungeon finder, I just find it funny that you guys keep saying where are the facts that it destroys the community, oh herp derp I can't prove **** that it makes the game better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitiock Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 When this discussion first started out on the forums it was literally a 80% against any form of X-LFD or LFD+ (server only) with 15% asking for intro server and another 5% asking for X-LFD. In the weeks that have followed since things have changed so much that Bioware themselves have agreed a LFD tool is needed for server only at the moement. Bioware has always said this is something they would have to come back and visit, I don't think they have even said it's a local server dungeon finder that auto groups you. Straw man. Reasonable logic has been presented to the concerns of a signficantly growing problem for gamers, simply saying "no" to the issue isn't relevant enough anymore. Logic also states that normally only people with a bad experience speak out so people that are happy and having a good time are probably in the game instead of wasting their time on a dungeon finder thread. No the issue is the old school gamers want it their way and to hell with everyone else. Compromises are been thought of this in this thread, an internal only LFD with a wait time penatly and a x-LFD is a very reasonable suggestion. And to them it's an issue with new kids who want instant gratification having have everything now now now. We do have facts, you won't accept them cause they aren't a smoking gun and don't agree with your version of events You don't have facts you have opinions just like they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts